Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?

[Skandery]

The first Arab voice stating that Israel wasn't going away, and Arab states needed to recognize that possibility...the ruler in Tunisia!  Which is it, Skander - insightful leader, or U.S. puppet?

That's easy . . . U.S. Puppet!!

Why wouldn't he express support for the country in the region that is the closest United States ally ON THE PLANET!!  With the level of financial and military aid that is funneled brom the average U.S. taxpayer right into Israeli funds, Israel might as well be a de facto military arm of the United States.  Yes the good little puppet will express nothing but support for all things U.S. and U.S. Ally.

To my line of thinking, you occupy and assimilate.

How very American of you.  Go to your nearest Indian reservation and ask somebody how the assimilation went.

[Skandery]

Sorry for multiple posts but the scroll function on this website isn't working.  For my longer posts I've had to copy and paste from word which inputs those stupid question marks.

The reality is that the West Bank and Gaza are not capable of retaking the territory, they are not a military threat. Israel will not ever allow that to happen, no matter how many children they produce or are subsidized by the gulf states. They are however, a significant problem for Israel, as they are unable to accept the reality of the situation or try to become a viable, self sufficient, self governed people.  As Skandery alluded to, a lot of them are living in internment camps being sustained by donations from their fellow muslims. Not working or in many cases having the opportunity to work, it's much easier to engage in pipe dreams than get on with the serious matter of nation building.

The problem is you have to have a nation first, then try to build it.  How can you build a nation from scratch.  Some basic principles like Life, Peace, Freedom, Security, and . . . oh yeah . . . Land have to be in place before you muddle through building a nation.  The facts on the ground are there is No Freedom, No Peace, No Security, and increasingly less and less land, water, and resources.  Israel is stopping just short of systematic extermination; and using desperate acts from desperate people as an excuse to unleash reprisals that ensure their pound of flesh. 

Yet somehow before the Zionist Movement that happened post-Balfour Declaration of 1917; Jews, Palestinan Christians, and Palestinan Muslims lived in relative peace for 2000 years.  Why Rick?  Why Joe?  Does anyone have an answer for that question.  How did those raghead, Islamofaschist, bassackwards Arab, terrorists manage to co-exist peacefully with Jews FOR SO LONG!  (with some hiccups here and there when those Europeans wanted to Crusade)

[Joe Vancil]

And finally, the difference between a person in uniform and a person not is very simple:  THE GENEVA CONVENTION.  *IF* we were to fight the same way the TERRORISTS - and that is the appropriate term - fight, there's no need for Guantanamo:  we can simply execute anyone we take if we decide we want to.  Or do the beheadings over there just go unanswered, because there's no government to hold responsbile?  After all - Iraq isn't in charge of the terrorist groups.  Ask yourself what would happen if a U.S. soldier beheaded a captured terrorist.  Ask what the PEOPLE OF THE UNTIED STATES would say.

What would happen if a US soldier beheaded a terrorist.  Puh . . . Joe, ask yourself what would happen if a U.S. soldier detonated a carpet bomb in an Iraqi residential subdivision.  That's not one dead terrorist, that's hundreds of dead terrorists, and their little terrorist wives, and their little terrorist children, and all their little terrorist pets.  And the People of the United States don't care one way or another as long as its NOT IN THEIR BACKYARD.  Their is a World Trade Center attack that happens on a weekly basis in Gaza, West Bank, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, you name it.  Well here in American we know how to respond to 3,000 dead innocents, the death of 100s of thousands of "terrorists" and the destruction of a sovereign nation; and it didn't matter to whom we lied to in order to get that revenge.

When you equate MILITARY ACTION - called for by the President, sanctioned by the Congress, in accordance with the laws that govern our nation - with the beheading of a captured soldier/combatant/whatever, then obviously, there's no reason to enter into such things as the Geneva Convention, because they offer no protection for you.  At that point, the U.N. becomes pointless;  you're essentially on your own, because it's up to you to enforce the protection of your own people.  And if we're going to play in that ballpark, I'm in favor of executing the prisoners at Guantanamo.  Water-boarding?  Torture?  EVERY ONE, OKAY.  We have to make sure that we're so absolutely vicious that no one would *EVER* dare to mess with our citizens.

Fortunately, somewhere along the line, cooler heads prevailed, and came up with some things that REAL governments agreed to.  Things like not endangering their own people by using them as human shields for their military.  Things like not operating military research in hospitals.  Things like not torturing prisoners - things that get OUR CITIZENS UPSET when we hear about our military doing them - even when operating against enemies that DO NOT adhere to those same standards.

Simply put, your line of thinking will lose ANY war.

[Joe Vancil]

To my line of thinking, you occupy and assimilate.

How very American of you.  Go to your nearest Indian reservation and ask somebody how the assimilation went.

And you haven't seen any Indian attacks lately, have you?  Any Indian suicide bombers?  Flaming arrows lighting up the suburbs? 

Sounds pretty effective to me.

Those who want to stay on the reservation and *DON'T* want to assimilate have done that - and have pretty much nothing.  Those who decided to assimilate, entered American schools, assumed jobs in the workplace, etc. - have ranged from doing as well and as poorly as any other mix of American citizen - and had their vote in how they're governed counted the same way everyone else's vote is.

[jemagee]

And you haven't seen any Indian attacks lately, have you?  Any Indian suicide bombers?  Flaming arrows lighting up the suburbs? 

Sounds pretty effective to me.

Wow...just complete and utter wow...

[Joe Vancil]

jemagee,

Like it or not, where there was conflict, NOW THERE IS PEACE.  I'm not saying that everything was done the way it should have been, and I'm not saying everybody got a fair deal.  But I'd rather be an Indian assimilated into Amercia - and make no mistake, I'd have assimilated - than a Palestinian with no government, no country.  Better to be a Palestinian who is an Israeli citizen, and can change the government by voting my conscience than what they've got now.

rickortreat points out that Israel didn't want to do this for fear of "losing their identity."  My point is that "identity" is a fluid and flexible thing for a nation - as our country is starting to find out.  (Except, of course, apparently you can't be proud of your identity if you're a part of the majority.  But that's another argument.)  rickortreat is probably right that if everyone was assimilated as an Israeli citizen, there'd be major changes in the government, but I cannot in good conscience say that self-governance is a bad thing (despite how bad we've screwed it up in the past 20 years or so).

[jemagee]

Joe

I'd love to engage in discussion with you about this - but I don't want to get banned again - and I surely would.

[Reality]

Another thing about present Indian, (past abuses noted!) is a fair amount of them are making major cabbage off the casinos.

[Joe Vancil]

Sorry for multiple posts but the scroll function on this website isn't working.  For my longer posts I've had to copy and paste from word which inputs those stupid question marks.

Off-topic, but I had to address this.  This problem that Skander mentioned is driving me batty, too.

[jemagee]

Another thing about present Indian, (past abuses noted!) is a fair amount of them are making major cabbage off the casinos.

That's incorrect as well...most of the money made off of casinos goes to a small minority of 'tribal' members...and many of those casinos are owned in partnership with non tribal members...

The majority of native americans still live in abject poverty and a high incidence of alcoholism with no help from the government/country that forced them off their own land.

And of course then there's the tribes that just no longer exist (like my gf's) and aren't even recognized as having existed at one point by the US Government.

Using the native american situation as some sort of example of positive action by a government is like using Howard Eskin to talk about how sports radio has evolved.  It's counter to the point you're trying to make.

The American governments treatment of the native american people has been shameful and despicable for centuries....

[jemagee]

Sorry for multiple posts but the scroll function on this website isn't working.  For my longer posts I've had to copy and paste from word which inputs those stupid question marks.

Off-topic, but I had to address this.  This problem that Skander mentioned is driving me batty, too.

Then use word pad or text edit to write your long posts.

[Joe Vancil]

Joe

I'd love to engage in discussion with you about this - but I don't want to get banned again - and I surely would.

Really?  Going to threaten violence, hurl expletives, or anything else really boorish?  Going to group-label entire races, religions, etc.?

You see, I *DON'T* believe you're going to do those things, and I *CERTAINLY* would like to hear what you feel the appropriate action would be once it's apparent that a country is there, and isn't going away.  I have a certain appreciation for a Don Quixotesque attitude, but that doesn't mean I always find it productive.  And I tend to believe that if you're posting ideas rather than flames, you're not going to get banned for it.

Obviously, I can't say you will or won't be banned for what you say.  But I certainly am curious, and do find your takes interesting and of value (although sometimes, in my estimation, incorrect).

Then again, I might point out the fact that assimilation obviously isn't as bad as you might want to make it out to be;  after all, in a round about way, your argument is "I'd rather assimilate than be banned" - which I can respect for several different reasons.  But I do believe that there's a certain level at which a person cannot afford to be silent, as well.  If we're there, and you're not comfortable saying what you've got to say publicly, I'm always amenable to e-mail.  joev@joev.com.

[Reality]

Another thing about present Indian, (past abuses noted!) is a fair amount of them are making major cabbage off the casinos.

That's incorrect as well...most of the money made off of casinos goes to a small minority of 'tribal' members...and many of those casinos are owned in partnership with non tribal members...

The majority of native americans still live in abject poverty and a high incidence of alcoholism with no help from the government/country that forced them off their own land.

And of course then there's the tribes that just no longer exist (like my gf's) and aren't even recognized as having existed at one point by the US Government.

Using the native american situation as some sort of example of positive action by a government is like using Howard Eskin to talk about how sports radio has evolved.  It's counter to the point you're trying to make.

The American governments treatment of the native american people has been shameful and despicable for centuries....

That's incorrect as well...most of the money made off of casinos goes to a small minority of 'tribal' members...and many of those casinos are owned in partnership with non tribal members...

Have you got credible stats to back this up?

The majority of native americans still live in abject poverty and a high incidence of alcoholism with no help from the government/country that forced them off their own land.

  Same q as above.  And don't they all get SSI, which granted may only be 1200 a month or whatever but its still a freebie.
Akin to this, alchoholic by choice?  Could they not use the 1200 a month and free time to get some serious schooling and a good skill/trade?

[jemagee]

Ah - I see - even though no other facts or stats were used to back up any of the black and white assertions made here i have to back up mine

Time - 2002 http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101021216/story_backup.html

IN California - even though they are supposed to be sovereign - they must share with the counties - http://www.kumeyaay.com/2009/03/temecula-county-to-share-indian-gaming-profit/

Murphy stated that the future of tribal gaming still remains unclear. In his view, gaming has been the first real economic development program to work on the reservation and it has been much more successful than policy makers could have imagined. As a result, congress has attempted to introduce amendments to the IGRA to give greater leverage to states.

http://www.airpi.org/projects/f96gaming.html

[Joe Vancil]

Another thing about present Indian, (past abuses noted!) is a fair amount of them are making major cabbage off the casinos.

That's incorrect as well...most of the money made off of casinos goes to a small minority of 'tribal' members...and many of those casinos are owned in partnership with non tribal members...

The majority of native americans still live in abject poverty and a high incidence of alcoholism with no help from the government/country that forced them off their own land.

And of course then there's the tribes that just no longer exist (like my gf's) and aren't even recognized as having existed at one point by the US Government.

Using the native american situation as some sort of example of positive action by a government is like using Howard Eskin to talk about how sports radio has evolved.  It's counter to the point you're trying to make.

The American governments treatment of the native american people has been shameful and despicable for centuries....

That's incorrect as well...most of the money made off of casinos goes to a small minority of 'tribal' members...and many of those casinos are owned in partnership with non tribal members...

Have you got credible stats to back this up?

The majority of native americans still live in abject poverty and a high incidence of alcoholism with no help from the government/country that forced them off their own land.

  Same q as above.  And don't they all get SSI, which granted may only be 1200 a month or whatever but its still a freebie.
Akin to this, alchoholic by choice?  Could they not use the 1200 a month and free time to get some serious schooling and a good skill/trade?

While your last point has some validity, I think all you have to do is look with your eyes to see jem's former point.  There's no questions that not all those on reservations are sharing equally in the profit generated from the casinos.  Forcing him to "back up with references" the obvious isn't fighting fair....