Author Topic: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?  (Read 24703 times)

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2009, 11:18:34 AM »
How can I differentiate between them?

Rick, how do you tell the difference between a KKK member and a Roman Catholic?  How do you tell the difference between a white supremacist and a born again Christian?

Same difference!


Actually, there's an answer to the questions you posed, WayOut, and it comes from the Bible, of all places...in John 13:35.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

And 1 John 4:8...

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

These are the very words of the Bible that condemn groups like the KKK and white supremacists, and even the Westboro Baptist Church.
Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2009, 07:06:35 PM »
How can I differentiate between them?

Rick, how do you tell the difference between a KKK member and a Roman Catholic?  How do you tell the difference between a white supremacist and a born again Christian?

Same difference!


Actually, there's an answer to the questions you posed, WayOut, and it comes from the Bible, of all places...in John 13:35.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

And 1 John 4:8...

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

These are the very words of the Bible that condemn groups like the KKK and white supremacists, and even the Westboro Baptist Church.


You miss the point Joe, not to mention that quoting the bible is one of the worse ways to make a point about "love" and "god" since I can quote a few passages that are pretty brutal, especially towards women.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2009, 08:45:45 AM »
Actually, WayOut, I *DON'T* think I'm missing the point.  As Skander said, just because person B claims to belong to group A doesn't mean they're actually following the tenets of group A.  But there is a way of telling the difference in terms of Christians, because the line has been drawn distinctively.

However, to argue rickortreat's point for him, what we don't see very often - at least in the media - is "true" Muslims expressing outrage and trying to "take back" their religion from those who hijacked it.  Of course, I could say the same thing about us Christians and groups like the KKK and the Westboro people.

Then again, how do you "protest" the Westboro people?  After all, you don't want to go and further disrupt funerals and the like;  while their protests are classless, they're probably protected under freedom of speech, so you can't stop them....perhaps obstructing their buses and cars, as they're trying to leave from their church to get there?  About all you can really do effectively is express outrage at their interpretation.  The problem is that that isn't "newsworthy."
Joe

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Offline Reality

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2009, 09:17:34 AM »
However, to argue rickortreat's point for him, what we don't see very often - at least in the media - is "true" Muslims expressing outrage and trying to "take back" their religion from those who hijacked it. 
Yes what do the Muslims living in the U.S. do as far as outing the demonic terrorists living amoung them?
Maybe they do a lot, including discreet reporting to law enforcement that we never hear about.  Then again, it seems like we never hear about US Muslims reporting terrorists.

OTOH, i once tried to make a report to the FBI on a chick who made outrageous comments about blowing up a building while she was in the process of scamming an older US guy out of all his funds.  Got transfered 6 times (literally) until the guy on the other end of the phone said "Sir I'd like to help you but I'm just the parking garage attendant."

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2009, 10:04:08 AM »
However, to argue rickortreat's point for him, what we don't see very often - at least in the media - is "true" Muslims expressing outrage and trying to "take back" their religion from those who hijacked it. 
Yes what do the Muslims living in the U.S. do as far as outing the demonic terrorists living amoung them?
Maybe they do a lot, including discreet reporting to law enforcement that we never hear about.  Then again, it seems like we never hear about US Muslims reporting terrorists.

OTOH, i once tried to make a report to the FBI on a chick who made outrageous comments about blowing up a building while she was in the process of scamming an older US guy out of all his funds.  Got transfered 6 times (literally) until the guy on the other end of the phone said "Sir I'd like to help you but I'm just the parking garage attendant."

Perhaps...just perhaps...U.S. Muslims aren't reporting anything because THERE'S NOTHING TO REPORT!

Now maybe it's just me, but if I'm intending to do something, like, for example, blowing up a major building, I DON'T ADVERTISE THAT FACT AT CHURCH!  You know why?  Because if I do, I'm going to be in jail! 

Why do we assume the law-abiding Muslims have any idea about "upcoming terrorism?"

I'm more concerned with Muslim leadership OUTSIDE the US condemning militant action, etc.  I think that might actually do some good.
Joe

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Offline westkoast

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2009, 11:31:35 AM »

Yes what do the Muslims living in the U.S. do as far as outing the demonic terrorists living amoung them?

Reality I am not quite sure if you understand this but these people who are planning on doing bad things are not running around a mosque yelling out the information to where a TRUE Muslim who loves his brothers and sisters can 'drop the dime' on them.  I find this to be a silly response from you and not thought out.  As if they are freely giving out details about what they plan to do to everyone who is there to practice their religion.

 
Quote
Maybe they do a lot, including discreet reporting to law enforcement that we never hear about.  Then again, it seems like we never hear about US Muslims reporting terrorists.

That is because we never get nuance in our news reports.  The agency (IE NYPD) gets the credit for making the arrest but no details are given on exactly how they were able to find these people.

Quote
OTOH, i once tried to make a report to the FBI on a chick who made outrageous comments about blowing up a building while she was in the process of scamming an older US guy out of all his funds.  Got transfered 6 times (literally) until the guy on the other end of the phone said "Sir I'd like to help you but I'm just the parking garage attendant."

 ::)

So you prejudged that she would indeed be plotting a terrorist attack on a building in downtown San Diego based on how she looked?  You assumed she wasn't born in the US, hence the comment 'older US guy', and that means she would be more willing to blow something up?  Hmmm.  I've heard people talk about killing others, stabbing others, etc.  Sometimes people say things when they are mad that they will not act on.  I hardly think your example here provides a good example of what you are trying to get at.  If the FBI chased after every single time someone yelled out 'i wish the president was dead' 'I am so pissed I wish I could level this entire area' they probably wouldn't catch people who are SECRETLY plotting to do something.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 12:54:39 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Reality

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2009, 12:41:24 PM »

Yes what do the Muslims living in the U.S. do as far as outing the demonic terrorists living amoung them?

Reality I am not quite sure if you understand this but these people who are planning on doing bad things are not running around a mosque yelling out the information to where a TRUE Muslim who loves his brothers and sisters can 'drop the dime' on them.  I find this to be a silly response from you and not thought out.  As if they are freely giving out details about what they plan to do to everyone who is their to practice their religion.

 
Quote
Maybe they do a lot, including discreet reporting to law enforcement that we never hear about.  Then again, it seems like we never hear about US Muslims reporting terrorists.

That is because we never get nuance in our news reports.  The agency (IE NYPD) gets the credit for making the arrest but no details are given on exactly how they were able to find these people.

Quote
OTOH, i once tried to make a report to the FBI on a chick who made outrageous comments about blowing up a building while she was in the process of scamming an older US guy out of all his funds.  Got transfered 6 times (literally) until the guy on the other end of the phone said "Sir I'd like to help you but I'm just the parking garage attendant."

 ::)

So you prejudged that she would indeed be plotting a terrorist attack on a building in downtown San Diego based on how she looked?  You assumed she wasn't born in the US, hence the comment 'older US guy', and that means she would be more willing to blow something up?  Hmmm.  I've heard people talk about killing others, stabbing others, etc.  Sometimes people say things when they are mad that they will not act on.  I hardly think your example here provides a good example of what you are trying to get at.  If the FBI chased after every single time someone yelled out 'i wish the president was dead' 'I am so pissed I wish I could level this entire area' they probably wouldn't catch people who are SECRETLY plotting to do something.
So the news reports on some mosques being used as terrorist meeting places were fabricated?
I'm guessing the Italian and Irish Mafia at times used the Katholik church for some dealings.  I think a mosque would be a great place to hide under the cover of religuss freedom.

As to my *prejudging the woman based only on her skin color*, if it were anything like the account you concocted, i would say yes.
Instead my reporting her had many collaberated by numerous other seperate people.  She acted very weird, seemed very mental, overboard angry and was scamming the guys bank account to boot.  Did you and Joe miss the accounts of lower and middle level FBI agents trying to tell the uppities how all these guys in flight school etc seemed weird.  No the FBI and CIA screwed up royally.

Offline Reality

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2009, 12:43:43 PM »
^^^ up to and including the issuing of Visas (or was it drivers licenses) to many of the 911 hijackers months after they commited their murdercide hijacking.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2009, 01:02:40 PM »
Quote
mosques being used as terrorist meeting places were fabricated?

No, never said they were.  Again, just because they are up there doesn't mean they are freely sharing information to blow places up with anyone around in the mosque.  Just the fact you think that these people share this information out loud at the mosque to where everyone can hear it but don't say anything says a lot about how you view Muslims in general. 

People use plenty of public places to meet up to discuss 'bad' things.  A starbucks could be used for example (and probably has been used).  Are you going to hold a prejudged idea of all Starbucks workers because you have yet to hear in the news of them dropping the dime to stop illegal activity?  Of course not.  Your comments to Skandery and your comment about other Muslims not sharing information leads me to believe you have a different kind of problem with them.

Quote
I'm guessing the Italian and Irish Mafia at times used the Katholik church for some dealings.  I think a mosque would be a great place to hide under the cover of religuss freedom.

Sure so would a Mcdonalds or any place you can sit down at.  Are we going to lump Starbucks, Mcdonalds, and PF Changs workers together and accuse them of not sharing information that you have no clue if they heard of not?



Quote
As to my *prejudging the woman based only on her skin color*, if it were anything like the account you concocted, i would say yes.
Instead my reporting her had many collaberated by numerous other seperate people.  She acted very weird, seemed very mental, overboard angry and was scamming the guys bank account to boot.  Did you and Joe miss the accounts of lower and middle level FBI agents trying to tell the uppities how all these guys in flight school etc seemed weird.  No the FBI and CIA screwed up royally.

Sure seems like it.  Based on comments you've made to Skandery multiple times and the fact you had to point out the guy was an 'older US man' leads me to believe that.

How do you know, just by walking by, what was going on exactly?  You broke up this elaborate bank scheme in passing?  Yet you are worried about her planning a bombing attack?  It seems like these 'details' are just being made on the fly.  Seriously, why wasn't 'all these other people calling in as well and getting treated the same way' brought up in your first post?  Certainly it would have gave more weight to your little story. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 01:06:10 PM by westkoast »
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2009, 01:21:48 PM »
It seems that there is no way to determine if someone is a "true believer" or if they are simply using religeon as cover for their immoral acts.

If a guy cries allu akbar, before he blows up himself along with some others, what should I call him? He is identifying himself as a Muslim and justifies his actions using the Q'uran. You want to split hairs and say, well, he really isn't one, and I can't disagree with that statement. But he does have all the characteristics of being a Muslim in name if not reality.

Muslim is a religious connotation, referring to one who practices Islam. A terrorist is one who tries to put others into fear as a result of his actions. A Muslim terrorist is one who tries to put fear into others while posing as a Muslim.

Clearly not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims. But there are quite a few who consider themselves Muslim and perform terrorist acts.  I suppose a Gazan could argue that Jewish IDF forces are terrorists, but they don't scream religious epithets before killing and they go to great lengths to avoid killing innocents, even if Gaza citizens are scared of them.  A terrorist doesn't call up and tell you to get out of someplace before he bombs it! And he wears a uniform.

In fact a terrorist goes to great lengths to look like everyone else when he acts. He's trying to blend in, and conceal his true identity. He/She also doesn't attack military targets, a terrorist is a dirty fighter, and a coward.

Offline Reality

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2009, 05:50:47 PM »
Quote
mosques being used as terrorist meeting places were fabricated?

 

People use plenty of public places to meet up to discuss 'bad' things.  A starbucks could be used for example (and probably has been used).  Are you going to hold a prejudged idea of all Starbucks workers because you have yet to hear in the news of them dropping the dime to stop illegal activity?  Of course not.  Your comments to Skandery and your comment about other Muslims not sharing information leads me to believe you have a different kind of problem with them.

Quote
I'm guessing the Italian and Irish Mafia at times used the Katholik church for some dealings.  I think a mosque would be a great place to hide under the cover of religuss freedom.

Sure so would a Mcdonalds or any place you can sit down at.  Are we going to lump Starbucks, Mcdonalds, and PF Changs workers together and accuse them of not sharing information that you have no clue if they heard of not?



Quote
As to my *prejudging the woman based only on her skin color*, if it were anything like the account you concocted, i would say yes.
Instead my reporting her had many collaberated by numerous other seperate people.  She acted very weird, seemed very mental, overboard angry and was scamming the guys bank account to boot.  Did you and Joe miss the accounts of lower and middle level FBI agents trying to tell the uppities how all these guys in flight school etc seemed weird.  No the FBI and CIA screwed up royally.

Sure seems like it.  Based on comments you've made to Skandery multiple times and the fact you had to point out the guy was an 'older US man' leads me to believe that.

How do you know, just by walking by, what was going on exactly?  You broke up this elaborate bank scheme in passing?  Yet you are worried about her planning a bombing attack?  It seems like these 'details' are just being made on the fly.  Seriously, why wasn't 'all these other people calling in as well and getting treated the same way' brought up in your first post?  Certainly it would have gave more weight to your little story. 
I never said all mosques were terroist hang outs.  I said some most certainly could be.  Your response seemed to infer none of the mosques could be.
Quote
Reality I am not quite sure if you understand this but these people who are planning on doing bad things are not running around a mosque yelling out the information to where a TRUE Muslim who loves his brothers and sisters can 'drop the dime' on them.  I find this to be a silly response from you and not thought out.  As if they are freely giving out details about what they plan to do to everyone who is there to practice their religion.
Nor did i ever state any terrorpsuedoMuslims were "running around a mosque yelling out the information" -that's all you.

As to revealing the details of my and the other reports, the very term "whistleblower" is a negative conotation.  Like "tattletale" or "narc".  I am not, have not, nor will ever be a govt informant.  If you have the chance to talk to any real life serious "whistleblowers" you learn many if not most all of them rue the day they came forward.   Erin Brokovich is an extreme example of one whom it went well for.  Remember the Enron/Texas/Bush electric shortage scam of 10 years ago.  I saw ALL that coming, tried to rally a few radio stations.  Not a thing was done.  Knew a power company worker at Duke Energy who was ordered to shut down the power.  He logged all of the corruption, dates, who ordered the phony shut down, the whole banana.  Became an official "whistleblower".  Supposed to have govt protections and a reward for monies recovered.  He rues the day he came forward.  Life and liberty for he and his family were threatened.

So i have no intent to give any more details of the one and only report i attempted to make.  It will be the last also.

Quote
Sure seems like it.  Based on comments you've made to Skandery multiple times and the fact you had to point out the guy was an 'older US man' leads me to believe that.
I have no idea what you are talking about.  Please cut and past my
a.  comments to Skandery multiple times.  If you're talking about him having insider info on terrorists, that was a joke started by W.O.W. 8 years ago and continuing.  Skandery gets it, we know he's not really a terrorist.  W.O.W. could vouch for that if he wasnt being a juvinile hider.
b.  the older US guy.  Yes, what about it/him/her?

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2009, 09:02:05 PM »
It seems that there is no way to determine if someone is a "true believer" or if they are simply using religeon as cover for their immoral acts.

If a guy cries allu akbar, before he blows up himself along with some others, what should I call him? He is identifying himself as a Muslim and justifies his actions using the Q'uran. You want to split hairs and say, well, he really isn't one, and I can't disagree with that statement. But he does have all the characteristics of being a Muslim in name if not reality.

Muslim is a religious connotation, referring to one who practices Islam. A terrorist is one who tries to put others into fear as a result of his actions. A Muslim terrorist is one who tries to put fear into others while posing as a Muslim.

Clearly not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims. But there are quite a few who consider themselves Muslim and perform terrorist acts.  I suppose a Gazan could argue that Jewish IDF forces are terrorists, but they don't scream religious epithets before killing and they go to great lengths to avoid killing innocents, even if Gaza citizens are scared of them.  A terrorist doesn't call up and tell you to get out of someplace before he bombs it! And he wears a uniform.

In fact a terrorist goes to great lengths to look like everyone else when he acts. He's trying to blend in, and conceal his true identity. He/She also doesn't attack military targets, a terrorist is a dirty fighter, and a coward.

So what about the white supremacist and KKK members who quote the bible as they string people up or light crosses on peoples lawns?  Do they warn their victims before they hang them or drag them behind a truck?  All in the name of JESUS!  What's the difference? 

It is ignorant to associate violence to ONE religion.  I think more people have been killed/murdered in the name of Christianity than all the other religions put together.  Why the fuck do you care now?  Nobody seems to give a flying fuck, nor do they even talk about the wonderful job Catholics did in the "new world".  Over 95% of Mexico is Catholic because if you didn't "convert" you were killed.  What about the Jews in WWII Germany, does anybody recall some of Hitler?s reference material to justify "defending" themselves from the Jew?  Defending yourself from a Jew...hmmm...sounds familiar...yet Hilter was no Muslim.

People hear the word Jihad and get all worked up yet the word Crusade seems to give everyone the warm and fuzzies.  TARDS!

I really can't stand it when morons? talk about violence and the Muslim religion, the frigging rag heads are kindergarteners compared to Christianity.

It's NOT about the religion/beliefs!!!!
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

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"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

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Offline Skandery

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »
If we were standing in a room, I?d be standing up and clapping.  A bit harsh?  Yes.  But its sad that its Miguel?s brand of expression that comes closest to actually getting it.  Westkoast is right on the money, also.

=======================================

Rick, I understand why its hard for you to imagine the word Muslim without connotations of some psychotic murderer blowing himself up.  How often does the word "Muslim" get mentioned on the Nightly News?  How often does the word "terrorist" follow it up in the same sentence.  Your perception clouds your observation, your perception is influenced by the western media.  I know you're a sane, rational man; and it yet you're idea about Muslims, Terrorism, Warfare, has been perversed and skewed to such a degree that you can't even reconcile the difference between genocide and retaliation.  What's happening in the world, Rick?  Is it this Islamic religion of hate?  This religious, bloodthirsty, barbaric, suicidal, murderous religion churning out unthinking, faceless, Islamofascists (love this word) eager to reek death, carnage, and destruction. 

I'm going to digress a bit, please bear with me.  Did you keep up with the January 2009 Gaza War earlier this year, Rick?  Gaza is for all intents and purposes a World War II era Jewish "Ghetto" inhabited by Palestinian muslims.  People living in unimaginable conditions robbed of peace, property, humanity, and the hope of a better future.  An area economically and politically opressed and suffocated.  1.5 Million people living in sickness, poverty, destitution, and violence.  A situation worsened by the strict Israeli blockade of the geographic area from nearly all forms of trade and respite.  The only difference is no one is making these people wear Green Moons on their clothes.  In the year (2008) leading to what was termed the "Gaza Conflict" 9 months ago; 20 Israeli's were killed from Gaza mortars/rockets, starting with 2 deaths in February of that year.  Senseless slaughter or retaliation for the 79 Palestinian deaths at the hands of IDF in January of 2008.  In fact there were 412 deaths of Palestinans at the hands of IDF during that year.  During 2008, for every single Israeli casualty, IDF responded by killing 21 Palestinians.  Tiring of the annoyance (and perhaps the ratio of only 1:21), in January 09 Israel launched an all-out airstrike.  The exact date of the operation was December 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM, just as Palestinian children were leaving school.

Who are the terrorists, Rick?  Lets define Terrorist: one who uses the act of violence and threats against the state or public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion.  So as long you were a uniform and kill civilians with Helicoptors, Jets, Bombs, and Missiles; you are not a terrorist?  But if you kill civilians by blowing yourself up you are a terrorist?  If the act kills thousands and is government-sanctioned you are not a terrorist?  If the act kills 2 people and injures 4 you are a terroist? 

If someones says 'GOD bless America' before he napalms a village are they a terrorist or simply Christian?  A helicopter gunner mowing down children while the Star of David is painted on the gun.  Someone who says 'Allah Uakbar' then blows themselves up?  Ah ha that's definitely a terrorist! 

The world isn't what Fox News tells you it is, Rick. 
Islam condemns violence.  That is an indisputable fact.  So does christianity.  So does Judaism.  Climb out of that primitive hole you live in and realize that Muslim and Terror have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!  Humanity and Violence on the other hand DO! 
       
       
         
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 06:51:05 PM by Skandery »
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2009, 07:13:56 PM »
Actually, I'm going to throw this out in definition of a terrorist, Skander:  if you're a commissioned soldier of a nation's army, NO, you are not a terrorist.  A country - a recognized national entity that can respond to inquiry or accusation - can be held responsible for your action.  You are responsible to your superiors, in visible fashion, and lay claim to the sovereign protection of your national government. 

Attack your own government, as a rebel, and you're treasonous.  Attack outside of your own government, and you're a terrorist.
Joe

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Re: Terror alert: Will it affect your attendance?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2009, 07:17:16 PM »
Actually, I'm going to throw this out in definition of a terrorist, Skander:  if you're a commissioned soldier of a nation's army, NO, you are not a terrorist.  A country - a recognized national entity that can respond to inquiry or accusation - can be held responsible for your action.  You are responsible to your superiors, in visible fashion, and lay claim to the sovereign protection of your national government. 

Attack your own government, as a rebel, and you're treasonous.  Attack outside of your own government, and you're a terrorist.

I'm not trying to cause trouble at all or get too involved in this because I'm WAY out of my depth - but - does the 'type of government' that the soldier is a member of have an impact?  Or are you excusing any soldiers actions as long as they were 'following orders' of a government?