Shaq to Cleveland is official

[Joe Vancil]

He didn't do that in Miami.  He didn't do that in Phoenix.  He's not going to do that in Cleveland.

...and it won't matter.  Cleveland lost to Orlando because they got into a jump-shooting contest with a better jump-shooting team.  This time, they'll pound the paint, and time has proven over and over that that's a significantly more productive strategy.

[Reality]

I would disagree with you on the Miami part.  With Pat Riles egging him on, i think Snaq did get in pretty good shape for 2005 and the 2006 title year.

I do think his age and slacker ethic will keep him down in Cleveland, but i don't say it dogmatically.  Maybe he will get in shape.  That would be a pleasant surprise.  Now if the Cavs can add Hedo......

[westkoast]

This time, they'll pound the paint, and time has proven over and over that that's a significantly more productive strategy.

And so will Orlando.....again not seeing why this shoots them over the top of Orlando.  If anything it makes them match up better but doesn't shoot them over the top because: They are still not the better jump shooting team, Shaq is not going to do more damage in the paint than Howard will over the course of a series, and their perimeter defense is just as suspect as it was in the playoffs.

I think Dwight Howard is capable of guarding a 38 year old Shaq in the playoffs.

[Joe Vancil]

This time, they'll pound the paint, and time has proven over and over that that's a significantly more productive strategy.

And so will Orlando.....again not seeing why this shoots them over the top of Orlando.  If anything it makes them match up better but doesn't shoot them over the top because: They are still not the better jump shooting team, Shaq is not going to do more damage in the paint than Howard will over the course of a series, and their perimeter defense is just as suspect as it was in the playoffs.

I think Dwight Howard is capable of guarding a 38 year old Shaq in the playoffs.

No, Orlando is *NOT* going to pound the paint.  They'll expect Dwight to get his off of offensive rebounds.  If Howard waits on them to get him the ball, he'll be taking 8 to 10 shots a game, and that favors Cleveland.  Not to mention, Howard is nowhere near as developed as an offensive player as O'Neal, and hasn't shown any really great ability to power past O'Neal in the past.


The problem remains that Orlando may now be deciding that Carter will replace Turkoglu, and although that increases star power, it sure doesn't help the idea of feeding Howard on the block.

[westkoast]

This time, they'll pound the paint, and time has proven over and over that that's a significantly more productive strategy.

And so will Orlando.....again not seeing why this shoots them over the top of Orlando.  If anything it makes them match up better but doesn't shoot them over the top because: They are still not the better jump shooting team, Shaq is not going to do more damage in the paint than Howard will over the course of a series, and their perimeter defense is just as suspect as it was in the playoffs.

I think Dwight Howard is capable of guarding a 38 year old Shaq in the playoffs.

No, Orlando is *NOT* going to pound the paint.  They'll expect Dwight to get his off of offensive rebounds.  If Howard waits on them to get him the ball, he'll be taking 8 to 10 shots a game, and that favors Cleveland.  Not to mention, Howard is nowhere near as developed as an offensive player as O'Neal, and hasn't shown any really great ability to power past O'Neal in the past.


The problem remains that Orlando may now be deciding that Carter will replace Turkoglu, and although that increases star power, it sure doesn't help the idea of feeding Howard on the block.

Really I think it depends more on getting rid of a guy who wants to score on his own (Raef Alston) and making sure Nelson doesn't turn into a shoot-first type of guy.  IF (and this is a huge if due to the coach) Nelson really runs the offense right and distributes properly why wouldn't they?

O'Neal developed his offense game but his skills have faded to the point where he is not a huge advantage over Howard.  His quick jump hook just is not there like it use to be.  Nor is his ability to spin off players.  He just can't jump and move quite like he did.  I don't agree with you in that instance.  Like I said, Howard WILL improve, just like he did last year.  Shaq is not going to improve.  The cliche you can't teach an old dog new tricks applies here.

[Reality]

zig,
Snaq now claiming the Blazers were pining for him midseason last season and that he told Kerr he was vetoing a trade to Portland.  Blazers deny any and all such talk.

Truth?

[Laker Fan]

Gotta says guys, I come down on 'Koast's side with this one, NO WAY this helps Cleveland. A healthy Boston, if they keep their key players in place, will destroy Cleveland with Shaq in the paint, A one year more experienced, one year improved Orlando will run the legs clean off Shaq, they are a fairly quick team that likes to stop and pop and can throw 2-3 players at Shaq IF he is able to get back down court in time to prevent their quick shooting offense.

Joe is correct, no truer axiom in the NBA than live by the jumper DIE by the jumper, but that all goes out the window when you can kill a team in transition, which Orlando can now do at will with Shaq on the floor. Reverse that and now Cleveland is playing 4 on 5 waiting for Shaq to get back, more than enough time for Orlando to set their defense and hamper Lebron's ability to operate as double teams will be easier.

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

[Lurker]

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

Shaq had SOMETHING to do with the title in Miami...18.4 pts/9.8 rebs/1.5 blks.  He just was not the lead role; that was Wade.  And I would argue that LBJ is slightly better than Wade.  Also IMO Shaq is an upgrade to Z.  And definately an upgrade to Ben Wallace.

Shaq    30 min   17.8 pts  8.4 rebs   1.4 blks   1.7 assts
Z         27 min   12.9       7.5          1.3         1.0
Wallace 23.5       2.9       6.5          1.3         0.8

Shaq is no longer a 30/11 player but at 17/8 he is better than over half of the centers in the NBA.  Most teams would be happy getting a 30 min/game big man that will give you 18/8.5/1.4.  And in the past 2 seasons Shaq has played 1 (ONE) less game than Z.

[westkoast]

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

Shaq had SOMETHING to do with the title in Miami...18.4 pts/9.8 rebs/1.5 blks.  He just was not the lead role; that was Wade.  And I would argue that LBJ is slightly better than Wade.  Also IMO Shaq is an upgrade to Z.  And definately an upgrade to Ben Wallace.

Shaq    30 min   17.8 pts  8.4 rebs   1.4 blks   1.7 assts
Z         27 min   12.9       7.5          1.3         1.0
Wallace 23.5       2.9       6.5          1.3         0.8

Shaq is no longer a 30/11 player but at 17/8 he is better than over half of the centers in the NBA.  Most teams would be happy getting a 30 min/game big man that will give you 18/8.5/1.4.  And in the past 2 seasons Shaq has played 1 (ONE) less game than Z.

Of course he had SOMETHING to do but the numbers you posted would make one think that he was a heavy contributor in the first two rounds.  He was not.  They (the entire team minus Shaq) really had to battle to get to the ECF in which Shaq did finally fully make it back to contribute.  As for the finals, again he did do SOMETHING but clearly they would have lost had Wade not gone nuts on the offensive end.

[Lurker]

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

Shaq had SOMETHING to do with the title in Miami...18.4 pts/9.8 rebs/1.5 blks.  He just was not the lead role; that was Wade.  And I would argue that LBJ is slightly better than Wade.  Also IMO Shaq is an upgrade to Z.  And definately an upgrade to Ben Wallace.

Shaq    30 min   17.8 pts  8.4 rebs   1.4 blks   1.7 assts
Z         27 min   12.9       7.5          1.3         1.0
Wallace 23.5       2.9       6.5          1.3         0.8

Shaq is no longer a 30/11 player but at 17/8 he is better than over half of the centers in the NBA.  Most teams would be happy getting a 30 min/game big man that will give you 18/8.5/1.4.  And in the past 2 seasons Shaq has played 1 (ONE) less game than Z.

Of course he had SOMETHING to do but the numbers you posted would make one think that he was a heavy contributor in the first two rounds.  He was not.  They (the entire team minus Shaq) really had to battle to get to the ECF in which Shaq did finally fully make it back to contribute.  As for the finals, again he did do SOMETHING but clearly they would have lost had Wade not gone nuts on the offensive end.

The numbers for Shaq were for the ENTIRE 2006 playoffs.  4 rounds; 23 games.  The whole "Shaq didn't contribute" line is getting old and is false.

The Heat had 23 playoff games that year.  Shaq scored double digits (10+) in 20 of the 23 games.  He scored 20+ in 8 of the games.  He averaged 10+ rebounds in every round except against Detroit...but burned the Pistons for 21.7 points per game (Ben Wallace was DOPY).  And Shaq's worse series was against the Mavs in the finals where he averaged "only" 14/10.

Here is the COMPLETE list of players who averaged 10+ rebounds in the 2009 playoffs:
 howard,dwight         Orl   15.3       
 boozer,carlos         Uta   13.2       
 noah,joakim           Chi   13.1       
 perkins,kendrick      Bos   11.6       
 ming,yao              Hou   10.9       
 gasol,pau             LAL   10.8       
 nowitzki,dirk         Dal   10.1       

[westkoast]

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

Shaq had SOMETHING to do with the title in Miami...18.4 pts/9.8 rebs/1.5 blks.  He just was not the lead role; that was Wade.  And I would argue that LBJ is slightly better than Wade.  Also IMO Shaq is an upgrade to Z.  And definately an upgrade to Ben Wallace.

Shaq    30 min   17.8 pts  8.4 rebs   1.4 blks   1.7 assts
Z         27 min   12.9       7.5          1.3         1.0
Wallace 23.5       2.9       6.5          1.3         0.8

Shaq is no longer a 30/11 player but at 17/8 he is better than over half of the centers in the NBA.  Most teams would be happy getting a 30 min/game big man that will give you 18/8.5/1.4.  And in the past 2 seasons Shaq has played 1 (ONE) less game than Z.

Of course he had SOMETHING to do but the numbers you posted would make one think that he was a heavy contributor in the first two rounds.  He was not.  They (the entire team minus Shaq) really had to battle to get to the ECF in which Shaq did finally fully make it back to contribute.  As for the finals, again he did do SOMETHING but clearly they would have lost had Wade not gone nuts on the offensive end.

The numbers for Shaq were for the ENTIRE 2006 playoffs.  4 rounds; 23 games.  The whole "Shaq didn't contribute" line is getting old and is false.

The Heat had 23 playoff games that year.  Shaq scored double digits (10+) in 20 of the 23 games.  He scored 20+ in 8 of the games.  He averaged 10+ rebounds in every round except against Detroit...but burned the Pistons for 21.7 points per game (Ben Wallace was DOPY).  And Shaq's worse series was against the Mavs in the finals where he averaged "only" 14/10.

Here is the COMPLETE list of players who averaged 10+ rebounds in the 2009 playoffs:
 howard,dwight         Orl   15.3       
 boozer,carlos         Uta   13.2       
 noah,joakim           Chi   13.1       
 perkins,kendrick      Bos   11.6       
 ming,yao              Hou   10.9       
 gasol,pau             LAL   10.8       
 nowitzki,dirk         Dal   10.1       

Where did I say 'he didn't contribute' again?  I believe what I always said and that is a fact, he was not the driving force behind the run to the championship nor was he the main force behind the title itself.  What I find 'tired and old' is the fact that people act like Shaq has been the driving force in a title since 2003.  We are in 2009.

 As soon as I get back from lunch ill be sure to go through important games in which he didn't touch the floor or failed to play more than 20 minutes (Because he was unable to due to lack of conditioning/injury0.  You also failed to mention what happened the follow year in the playoffs.  Shaq was dropped in the first round by a Chicago Bulls team that ended up imploding just 6 months later.  Ditto with Phoenix.  He hasn't even got out of the first round in 3 years.

[Lurker]

Where did I say 'he didn't contribute' again?  I believe what I always said and that is a fact, he was not the driving force behind the run to the championship nor was he the main force behind the title itself.  What I find 'tired and old' is the fact that people act like Shaq has been the driving force in a title since 2003.  We are in 2009.

 As soon as I get back from lunch ill be sure to go through important games in which he didn't touch the floor or failed to play more than 20 minutes (Because he was unable to due to lack of conditioning/injury0.  You also failed to mention what happened the follow year in the playoffs.  Shaq was dropped in the first round by a Chicago Bulls team that ended up imploding just 6 months later.  Ditto with Phoenix.  He hasn't even got out of the first round in 3 years.

If you want to play that game where did I say he was a driving force?

But to say that someone who put up 18/10 didn't contribute is HOGWASH.  Based on that logic Gasol didn't contribute to this year's title.  And the other numbers compared THIS YEAR's numbers for Shaq and the two centers in Cleveland.  How do explain that Shaq has better numbers (and played in just as many games) as Z & Wallace?

Shaq may be older and slower than he was in the Laker title years.  But to say he is washed up and can't contribute is hogwash.  To say that he rode Wade's coattails to the title is false and mostly perpetuated by Laker fans.  Shaq put up better numbers in 2006 than Gasol did in 2009.  But Shaq rode coattails and Gasol was a key contributor.  Pot meet kettle.

[Lurker]

Shaq was dropped in the first round by a Chicago Bulls team that ended up imploding just 6 months later.  Ditto with Phoenix.  He hasn't even got out of the first round in 3 years.

This sounds like you expected Shaq to lead the team.  How about saying that Wade with Shaq as help couldn't get out of the first round?  Or Nash & Stoudemire couldn't duplicate their earlier success when given a true center?

It is Shaq's fault when his team loses but others get the credit for winning.  Good point, koast.   

[Reality]

Lurker you're a fine job with the kids.
Altho was Kobmes main support bailout Gasol or Jameer Nelson? 

I might point out yet again, Shaq HAD NOTHING TO DO with Miami's title, and Rick never acknowledged how wrong he was about Phoenix being instant title contenders when they traded for Shaq. Nothing has changed, Shaq is a downgrade, and Carter to Orlando will just about guarantee Orlando got leapfrogged by no one.

Get his car keys away from him, anyone.
Once again I will arrange transportation for you to and from The Laker House.

[westkoast]

Shaq was dropped in the first round by a Chicago Bulls team that ended up imploding just 6 months later.  Ditto with Phoenix.  He hasn't even got out of the first round in 3 years.

This sounds like you expected Shaq to lead the team.  How about saying that Wade with Shaq as help couldn't get out of the first round?  Or Nash & Stoudemire couldn't duplicate their earlier success when given a true center?

It is Shaq's fault when his team loses but others get the credit for winning.  Good point, koast.   

No it doesnt sound like anything.  It sounds like you are trying to put thoughts and words in my mouth, again.  I never said 'he never contributed' nor did I even slightly hint I expected him to do dominate.  If you want me to correct you it was myself who said he couldn't lead the team with out Wade and he wasn't going to impact the Pheonix Suns in the way people hoped, including yourself.  So let's just be clear on what I thought based on what I actually said on this very board.   I expect more of the same in Cleveland. 

Again, where did I say all the wins are other people and all the loses are Shaq?  The whole point in bringing up what I did was to point out that he hasn't done anything in 3 years yet somehow this puts the Cavs in the Finals.  This is again to say that there is more reason to expect what's happened over the last 3 years than what happened with the Lakers in 2003.  And please, don't even start with the 'Amare and Nash couldn't repeat what they had with a true center'  More like Amare went out because of his eye, and Shaq was not in good enough shape to play their style of basketball.  Nash asked for Shaq to be moved to the Cavs because 'he cannot keep up' so good try overnight Shaq fan.

Let's talk about 'great points' like saying he missed the same amount of games as Z LOL!    That means what exactly?  That he will be able to play as much as Z?  Awesome point Lurker!  So you can expect him to miss 30 games and not quite be ready for the playoffs too!  Sounds like that's what they will need to get them past a team they only beat once in the playoffs on a lucky last second jumper.