Author Topic: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.  (Read 4775 times)

Offline westkoast

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2009, 05:24:03 PM »
Actually, no, I wouldn't, unless the player getting tripped is an enforcer looking for a reason to fight.

This may just be the point guard in me talking, but I feel that trips like that get made every game.  I want to cut as close to the defender as I can, making me as fast as I can be, and controlling the defender's motion.  He wants to make sure I don't go through the lane without taking a bump.  Invariably, the cutter will get tripped.

It looked pretty harmless from the angle I saw in the link you provided.

I actually don't think Kobe was as pissed about the tripping itself as the fact that it was blatant and they are getting away with a lot of those plays.  What made it worse is they finally started to call these cheap plays after it got out of hand but instead of regular fouls they started to award technicals for it (like that one on Kenyon Martin when he locked Pau Gasol's arm down the court).  To me that is really annoying.  I don't think a technical is warranted and I blame the refs for letting it get out of hand and temper flare to the point where all the sudden they think they need to blow the whistle a thousand times to get the game under control.

Based on how the league has been calling flagrant fouls, moreso based on trying to hurt a player, then it should be a flagrant.  Especially if that Bynum play was.  Though there was a point in time where a certain Utah Jazz point guard would do small things like this and was labeled a 'savvy vet' for knowing what he could and could not get away with.  I also remember a hair dying weirdo doing the same thing in Chicago to Karl Malone.  I wouldn't say it's a huge deal but it's a dirty play.

Haven't seen the Bynum play (which *WAS NOT* a flagrant, according to the league, I thought...am I wrong?).  Care to post it?

I was thinking "John Stockton, Joe Dumars, and Nate McMillan" when I saw that play.  You could probably throw in Greg Anthony, Gary Payton, and Penny Hardaway, too.  It's not a flagrant.


I didn't see that they took it away but when I looked, sure enough you are right.  I'd post video but it's not worth it at this point as they took it away.  No point in continuing to harp on the fact that they are letting games get out of control then over compensating with BS whistles.
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Offline msc

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2009, 05:40:07 PM »

I can't agree, unless:

1) using your foot for the pull-the-chair move is flagrant
2) using a foot-hook to prevent the rebound is flagrant
3) holding position with one foot against a jump-shooter is flagrant (Bruce Bowen)



Are we talking about the same play?

I have to disagree with your three "unless's" listed above.  Or at least the two that I understand:   

1.  When a player invokes the pull the chair out move, his feet are firmly planted to the ground.  While the offensive player shifts his weight toward the defender to back him down, the defender simply moves out of the way and the offensive player's momentum carries him to the ground and ultimately a traveling turnover.  This is not a trip in the least.  The defender doesn't sweep his foot in to the offensive players leg/foot to trip him.  Often times there is zero contact, which is primarily why the move works; i.e. the offensive player goes to sit down (make his move) and the chair (defender) isn't there.  This is not even remotely close to Dantay's blatent trip. 

2.  This is about position and leverage.  The rebounder angles his body with his feet/legs and puts them between the opponent and the basket.  This is a simple physical position and leverage ploy that is utilized on just about every possession within the course of a basketball game.  There is no leg sweep here to trip or dislodge a player.  It's a basketball related play through and through as physical position is a fundamental key in the game.

3.  Not sure I'm understanding what you mean on this one, so I won't comment. 

I can't understand how when a player falls to the ground and then purposefully sweeps his leg to trip an opponent anyone would disagree that is a cheap and flagrant foul.  It would be one thing in the game of soccer, where your feet are your primary tool and slide tackling is part of the game.  There is some gray area in that sport since your feet are your primary tool.  It's the opposite in basketball, you're only allowed to use your hands to touch the ball and defenders.  No gray area here. 

Offline Reality

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2009, 06:16:18 PM »
Actually, no, I wouldn't, unless the player getting tripped is an enforcer looking for a reason to fight.

This may just be the point guard in me talking, but I feel that trips like that get made every game.  I want to cut as close to the defender as I can, making me as fast as I can be, and controlling the defender's motion.  He wants to make sure I don't go through the lane without taking a bump.  Invariably, the cutter will get tripped.

It looked pretty harmless from the angle I saw in the link you provided.
and
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Actually, I watched the film again - saw the trip from a different angle.  Saw something else, too - a Bryant hand on Jones to push him and get some extra separation.

I'd have *DEFINITELY* tripped Kobe on that play.  He'll get away with the push, I'll probably get called for the trip, but I'll whisper where only the ref can hear, "He's pushing off."  You've got to trip him so that he doesn't get away with the push.


westkoast
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Good posting as usual Joe!
Good posting as usual Joe

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2009, 09:47:57 PM »
Actually, I watched the film again - saw the trip from a different angle.  Saw something else, too - a Bryant hand on Jones to push him and get some extra separation.

I'd have *DEFINITELY* tripped Kobe on that play.  He'll get away with the push, I'll probably get called for the trip, but I'll whisper where only the ref can hear, "He's pushing off."  You've got to trip him so that he doesn't get away with the push.

Now it makes more sense to me why that didn't get called.  It's one of those "let the players referee their own game" calls...like when you call the ball out-of-bounds off a guy who goes over the back, even though it was off his opponent - or when you call the foul only because the shot didn't go in.  In other words, shabby refereeing.



You must play in the UN Joe because on any blacktop you're going to get into a fight for that punk arse trip.  If you did that to me Joe and I liked you I would probably just push you in the chest and if you didn't apologize I'd punch you in the face.  If I didn't like you I would not say anything and either elbow you in the mouth or low bridge you later in the game.  You must play in some wuss league.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2009, 10:47:21 PM »

I can't agree, unless:

1) using your foot for the pull-the-chair move is flagrant
2) using a foot-hook to prevent the rebound is flagrant
3) holding position with one foot against a jump-shooter is flagrant (Bruce Bowen)



Are we talking about the same play?

I have to disagree with your three "unless's" listed above.  Or at least the two that I understand:   

1.  When a player invokes the pull the chair out move, his feet are firmly planted to the ground.  While the offensive player shifts his weight toward the defender to back him down, the defender simply moves out of the way and the offensive player's momentum carries him to the ground and ultimately a traveling turnover.  This is not a trip in the least.  The defender doesn't sweep his foot in to the offensive players leg/foot to trip him.  Often times there is zero contact, which is primarily why the move works; i.e. the offensive player goes to sit down (make his move) and the chair (defender) isn't there.  This is not even remotely close to Dantay's blatent trip. 

2.  This is about position and leverage.  The rebounder angles his body with his feet/legs and puts them between the opponent and the basket.  This is a simple physical position and leverage ploy that is utilized on just about every possession within the course of a basketball game.  There is no leg sweep here to trip or dislodge a player.  It's a basketball related play through and through as physical position is a fundamental key in the game.

3.  Not sure I'm understanding what you mean on this one, so I won't comment. 

I can't understand how when a player falls to the ground and then purposefully sweeps his leg to trip an opponent anyone would disagree that is a cheap and flagrant foul.  It would be one thing in the game of soccer, where your feet are your primary tool and slide tackling is part of the game.  There is some gray area in that sport since your feet are your primary tool.  It's the opposite in basketball, you're only allowed to use your hands to touch the ball and defenders.  No gray area here. 

On the "pull the chair," in addition to moving out of the way, you lodge one foot right behind the foot the player is balancing with.  He can't move the foot backward, so therefore, in addition to being off-balance, he can't re-plant the foot to re-balance himself.  In other words, he's got no choice...he's going down.

On the second, you're right that it is about leverage, but it's about leverage to get underneath a player.  If the player jumps forward, he's coming down groin-on-hip.  Works well at preventing people from jumping over your back.  Very Barkley-esque way of holding rebounding position.

For the third, the idea is to leave a foot between the feet of a jumpshooter.  When he comes down, he's immediately blocked out....if he drifts forward, he'll be pushing you in the back with no ability to move you (no leverage).  Very Bowen-like, although he's more aiming for getting under foot rather than blocking out.

Every one of these plays hurt opponents who try to out-physical you.  I think they're part of smart basketball...and infinitely better enforcement as a defender than falling down and waiting on the referees to call a flop.  Dirty?  To some extent, yes, but again, a part of smart basketball, in that a player trying to play a reasonably clean game isn't going to get hit by them.  And if you're playing to out-physical me, in my eyes, you deserved what you got.

You push me, and I grab/trip/impede you.  I throw an elbow on a drive, and you mistakenly catch my head.  You try to body me on the perimeter, and you take a forearm.  There's a certain amount of self-enforcement that goes on in any game.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2009, 11:05:12 PM »
Actually, I watched the film again - saw the trip from a different angle.  Saw something else, too - a Bryant hand on Jones to push him and get some extra separation.

I'd have *DEFINITELY* tripped Kobe on that play.  He'll get away with the push, I'll probably get called for the trip, but I'll whisper where only the ref can hear, "He's pushing off."  You've got to trip him so that he doesn't get away with the push.

Now it makes more sense to me why that didn't get called.  It's one of those "let the players referee their own game" calls...like when you call the ball out-of-bounds off a guy who goes over the back, even though it was off his opponent - or when you call the foul only because the shot didn't go in.  In other words, shabby refereeing.



You must play in the UN Joe because on any blacktop you're going to get into a fight for that punk arse trip.  If you did that to me Joe and I liked you I would probably just push you in the chest and if you didn't apologize I'd punch you in the face.  If I didn't like you I would not say anything and either elbow you in the mouth or low bridge you later in the game.  You must play in some wuss league.

Well, if that's your (over-)reaction to a pretty common play, you aren't going to be playing long in an officiated league, WayOut.  And you're certainly not going to be tolerated if you have any physical part to your game at all.

If that play is dirty, then it's common dirt - the kind you should expect from any physical player in a game.

Kobe wasn't in the air.  He had just pushed off as he was going by.  As a defender, you dislodge - a hip, a trip, a grab...SOMETHING.  And as the offensive player, you understand that you earned it.  It's a ramp-up of the physical play, but it's certainly understood.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 11:16:46 PM »
Actually, I watched the film again - saw the trip from a different angle.  Saw something else, too - a Bryant hand on Jones to push him and get some extra separation.

I'd have *DEFINITELY* tripped Kobe on that play.  He'll get away with the push, I'll probably get called for the trip, but I'll whisper where only the ref can hear, "He's pushing off."  You've got to trip him so that he doesn't get away with the push.

Now it makes more sense to me why that didn't get called.  It's one of those "let the players referee their own game" calls...like when you call the ball out-of-bounds off a guy who goes over the back, even though it was off his opponent - or when you call the foul only because the shot didn't go in.  In other words, shabby refereeing.



You must play in the UN Joe because on any blacktop you're going to get into a fight for that punk arse trip.  If you did that to me Joe and I liked you I would probably just push you in the chest and if you didn't apologize I'd punch you in the face.  If I didn't like you I would not say anything and either elbow you in the mouth or low bridge you later in the game.  You must play in some wuss league.

Well, if that's your (over-)reaction to a pretty common play, you aren't going to be playing long in an officiated league, WayOut.  And you're certainly not going to be tolerated if you have any physical part to your game at all.

If that play is dirty, then it's common dirt - the kind you should expect from any physical player in a game.

Kobe wasn't in the air.  He had just pushed off as he was going by.  As a defender, you dislodge - a hip, a trip, a grab...SOMETHING.  And as the offensive player, you understand that you earned it.  It's a ramp-up of the physical play, but it's certainly understood.

If a guy grabs me, heck if he bear hugs me I have no problem, but if a guy TRIPS me?  F that, we're throwing blows.  Obviously in an officiated game I'm not going to go "postal", I've played in hundreds of officiated games since I was 10 years old.  But I've learned to "low bridge" and do dental work in officiated games and trust me there would be retaliation after a "trip".  There is physical and there is dirty, there is savy and there is dirty, that was strait up DIRTY!
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 11:58:58 PM »
Nope.  Not dirty at all.  No chance of getting hurt...just a little bit of floorburn...maybe a little bruise.  (That's assuming you're not stupid enough to try to catch yourself on your hands and snap your wrist, of course.)  And granted, it'd probably be more poorly taken on asphalt.  Then again, you don't make the hard cut-move Bryant made if you're playing on asphalt...you aren't going to get the ball.  But on any indoor court I've ever played on, that play is no big deal.  You may not LIKE it, but it's not all that unexpected.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2009, 10:32:01 AM »
Nope.  Not dirty at all.  No chance of getting hurt...just a little bit of floorburn...maybe a little bruise.  (That's assuming you're not stupid enough to try to catch yourself on your hands and snap your wrist, of course.)  And granted, it'd probably be more poorly taken on asphalt.  Then again, you don't make the hard cut-move Bryant made if you're playing on asphalt...you aren't going to get the ball.  But on any indoor court I've ever played on, that play is no big deal.  You may not LIKE it, but it's not all that unexpected.

Joe,

In all my years of playing I have never seen that play, I've seen guys stick out knees, hips, elbows, grab, hug to stop a play like that but I have NEVER seen someone just stick their foot out like that, it's such a POS move.  IMO a trip is on the same level as a low bridge or elbow.  Those moves are intended to put a player down, a push in the back could be done in the heat of the moment but a TWO handed push in the back is also intended to put a guy down.  IMO it's the same level of "dirty".

If my DAD did that to me I'd probably throw the ball at his face, if my dad's brother did that to me I'd punch him in the face.  The only people that could get away with that move would be my kids, and the "pass" for my boys expires when they turn 14, the girls get a lifetime pass.
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Offline msc

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2009, 12:25:27 PM »

I can't agree, unless:

1) using your foot for the pull-the-chair move is flagrant
2) using a foot-hook to prevent the rebound is flagrant
3) holding position with one foot against a jump-shooter is flagrant (Bruce Bowen)



Are we talking about the same play?

I have to disagree with your three "unless's" listed above.  Or at least the two that I understand:   

1.  When a player invokes the pull the chair out move, his feet are firmly planted to the ground.  While the offensive player shifts his weight toward the defender to back him down, the defender simply moves out of the way and the offensive player's momentum carries him to the ground and ultimately a traveling turnover.  This is not a trip in the least.  The defender doesn't sweep his foot in to the offensive players leg/foot to trip him.  Often times there is zero contact, which is primarily why the move works; i.e. the offensive player goes to sit down (make his move) and the chair (defender) isn't there.  This is not even remotely close to Dantay's blatent trip. 

2.  This is about position and leverage.  The rebounder angles his body with his feet/legs and puts them between the opponent and the basket.  This is a simple physical position and leverage ploy that is utilized on just about every possession within the course of a basketball game.  There is no leg sweep here to trip or dislodge a player.  It's a basketball related play through and through as physical position is a fundamental key in the game.

3.  Not sure I'm understanding what you mean on this one, so I won't comment. 

I can't understand how when a player falls to the ground and then purposefully sweeps his leg to trip an opponent anyone would disagree that is a cheap and flagrant foul.  It would be one thing in the game of soccer, where your feet are your primary tool and slide tackling is part of the game.  There is some gray area in that sport since your feet are your primary tool.  It's the opposite in basketball, you're only allowed to use your hands to touch the ball and defenders.  No gray area here. 

On the "pull the chair," in addition to moving out of the way, you lodge one foot right behind the foot the player is balancing with.  He can't move the foot backward, so therefore, in addition to being off-balance, he can't re-plant the foot to re-balance himself.  In other words, he's got no choice...he's going down.

On the second, you're right that it is about leverage, but it's about leverage to get underneath a player.  If the player jumps forward, he's coming down groin-on-hip.  Works well at preventing people from jumping over your back.  Very Barkley-esque way of holding rebounding position.

For the third, the idea is to leave a foot between the feet of a jumpshooter.  When he comes down, he's immediately blocked out....if he drifts forward, he'll be pushing you in the back with no ability to move you (no leverage).  Very Bowen-like, although he's more aiming for getting under foot rather than blocking out.

Every one of these plays hurt opponents who try to out-physical you.  I think they're part of smart basketball...and infinitely better enforcement as a defender than falling down and waiting on the referees to call a flop.  Dirty?  To some extent, yes, but again, a part of smart basketball, in that a player trying to play a reasonably clean game isn't going to get hit by them.  And if you're playing to out-physical me, in my eyes, you deserved what you got.

You push me, and I grab/trip/impede you.  I throw an elbow on a drive, and you mistakenly catch my head.  You try to body me on the perimeter, and you take a forearm.  There's a certain amount of self-enforcement that goes on in any game.


Thanks for the clarification, Joe. 

I still view the first two differently simply because your feet are planted to the ground vs. a karate-like leg sweep at a player while they're running by.  It's apples and oranges in my book and I'm puzzled by the fact that you don't think an intentional trip is a big deal.  It's not a basketball related play, the others are.  But hey, different strokes. 

I don't think any of the plays you outline are dirty with the possible exception of the third depending on how it's executed.  They are smart, position and leverage oriented basketball plays, which is what the game is all about!

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Too little too late, league gets the foul calls right.
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2009, 04:48:46 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Joe. 

I still view the first two differently simply because your feet are planted to the ground vs. a karate-like leg sweep at a player while they're running by.  It's apples and oranges in my book and I'm puzzled by the fact that you don't think an intentional trip is a big deal.  It's not a basketball related play, the others are.  But hey, different strokes. 

I don't think any of the plays you outline are dirty with the possible exception of the third depending on how it's executed.  They are smart, position and leverage oriented basketball plays, which is what the game is all about!

Exactly wk, I have no idea where Joe is comming from. 
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