Arizas cheapshot on Blazer Fernandez

[Reality]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

[Lurker]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

His hand hit the ball at the same time his elbow hit the head.  Then the follow through caught Rudy's arm/wrist which is what really threw Fernandez off balance.

Go back to one of the kiddie boards.

[ziggy]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

His hand hit the ball at the same time his elbow hit the head.  Then the follow through caught Rudy's arm/wrist which is what really threw Fernandez off balance.

Go back to one of the kiddie boards.

Beg to disagree Lurker.  I have watched the video over and over.  Ariza never hit the ball.  He hit him across the head, and then he hit him across the arm causing the ball to bounce away.

[Reality]

Thanks zig.  Perhaps some still shots will help lurker overcome his vision, clouded by Laker loyalty.

And even if Ariza got head and ball at the same time, he knew good and well he was going to whack Rudy Fs head.
By definition a Flagrant 2 is, and i quote "excesssive and uneccessary".

[Lurker]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

His hand hit the ball at the same time his elbow hit the head.  Then the follow through caught Rudy's arm/wrist which is what really threw Fernandez off balance.

Go back to one of the kiddie boards.

Beg to disagree Lurker.  I have watched the video over and over.  Ariza never hit the ball.  He hit him across the head, and then he hit him across the arm causing the ball to bounce away.

Well, the couple views I watched it looked like he got ball about the same time as head.  I still believe he was making a play based on instinct and reaction.  He didn't run down the court trying to figure out the best way to get a flagrant 2 and ejection.

It wasn't a "frustration" foul going "for the head all the way".  As some of the less informed posters would like everyone to believe.

[Skandery]

Lurker, the Lakers were being run off the court to the tune of 25 points.  And there's Rudy sailing in for a dunk.  With absolutely no "clean" way of making a play on the ball (much like with Wallace), is it THAT hard to believe Ariza was frustrated?  His contact was, by definition, "excessive and unnecessary".

BTW, Rudy Fernandez was released from the hospital just this past Tuesday afternoon.



http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4302/photos;_ylt=Ar5aesEkM1tNCXtAfMOBPV.hPaB4?slug=de37847f71734621bef47b2c316a91e5.lakers_trail_blazers_basketball_pda108

Where does Ariza's hand get any ball?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4302/photos;_ylt=Atu4pXgtL.LRs_AciRDNrA.hPaB4?slug=b68447cd7b364a62ac3f84239a509e82.aptopix_lakers_trail_blazers_basketball_pda104   

The consequence of plays that have NO PLACE in basketball!

[Joe Vancil]

If Rudy jumps right back up like nothing happened, and Odom hits the floor to brawl, it's not that Odom gets no punishment, but that Odom's punishment assures an escalation of Ariza's punishment.

You're focusing on Odom;  I'm focusing on ARIZA - the instigator.  Without the flagrant foul, Odom doesn't come off the bench.  And the idea that a foul like that is either incidental or accidental is hogwash.  

Going the direction you're going simply establishes that there is no reason for a marginal player NOT to go head-hunting on valuable players.  If you're Sergio Rodriquez, and you have the chance to undercut LeBron James, THEN YOU DO IT.  You'll get tossed for the rest of the game...one that's already effectively over.  You get lucky, and Boris Diaw and Amare Stoudemire are missing a playoff game.

The instigator should always get the harshest penalty.  That doesn't mean any other players get off EASIER...it just means the instigator gets punished MORE.

[Joe Vancil]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

His hand hit the ball at the same time his elbow hit the head.  Then the follow through caught Rudy's arm/wrist which is what really threw Fernandez off balance.

Go back to one of the kiddie boards.

Beg to disagree Lurker.  I have watched the video over and over.  Ariza never hit the ball.  He hit him across the head, and then he hit him across the arm causing the ball to bounce away.

Well, the couple views I watched it looked like he got ball about the same time as head.  I still believe he was making a play based on instinct and reaction.  He didn't run down the court trying to figure out the best way to get a flagrant 2 and ejection.

It wasn't a "frustration" foul going "for the head all the way".  As some of the less informed posters would like everyone to believe.

He wasn't running down there to make a great defensive stop, either.  He was running down there to commit a foul to prevent giving up the basket...not to make a defensive stop.  The fact is that he wasn't thinking, and was just running on reaction - which is, of course, how most flagrant fouls occur - not when one is "trying to make a defensive stop" - it's when a player is trying to commit a foul to prevent giving up the basket.  And it CERTAINLY doesn't excuse them.

In times past, such a thing was called an INTENTIONAL foul.  This should be distinguised from a light foul or grab of a player, which was intentionally done, but not, per se, an "intentional" foul.  The idea that such a thing must be FLAGRANT now is, in my opinion, part of a problem that will see the escalation of hard fouls.

[Lurker]

Ariza went for the head all the way.  Frustration foul.

Basically swung his arm sideways, not above as one would going for the ball.

His hand hit the ball at the same time his elbow hit the head.  Then the follow through caught Rudy's arm/wrist which is what really threw Fernandez off balance.

Go back to one of the kiddie boards.

Beg to disagree Lurker.  I have watched the video over and over.  Ariza never hit the ball.  He hit him across the head, and then he hit him across the arm causing the ball to bounce away.

Well, the couple views I watched it looked like he got ball about the same time as head.  I still believe he was making a play based on instinct and reaction.  He didn't run down the court trying to figure out the best way to get a flagrant 2 and ejection.

It wasn't a "frustration" foul going "for the head all the way".  As some of the less informed posters would like everyone to believe.

He wasn't running down there to make a great defensive stop, either.  He was running down there to commit a foul to prevent giving up the basket...not to make a defensive stop.  The fact is that he wasn't thinking, and was just running on reaction - which is, of course, how most flagrant fouls occur - not when one is "trying to make a defensive stop" - it's when a player is trying to commit a foul to prevent giving up the basket.  And it CERTAINLY doesn't excuse them.

In times past, such a thing was called an INTENTIONAL foul.  This should be distinguised from a light foul or grab of a player, which was intentionally done, but not, per se, an "intentional" foul.  The idea that such a thing must be FLAGRANT now is, in my opinion, part of a problem that will see the escalation of hard fouls.

No IMO he was making a play for the ball...he got his head but he was trying to make a play.  The Cavs just announced the other day that LBJ has run down 17 opponents in that situation and gotten blocks.  It is common for defensive players to run down that type of play.  And coaches encourage it.  I would rather see a player attempt to run down that play than just stop and watch.

And Skandery the photo gallery you posted is worthless.  It is all still photos that do nothing to prove or disprove whether he hit the ball.

[westkoast]

Skandery how is that photo even worth posting?  You know very well that using ONE still photo and asking 'where did he go after the ball' is a poor attempt.

[ziggy]

No IMO he was making a play for the ball...he got his head but he was trying to make a play.  The Cavs just announced the other day that LBJ has run down 17 opponents in that situation and gotten blocks.  It is common for defensive players to run down that type of play.  And coaches encourage it.  I would rather see a player attempt to run down that play than just stop and watch.

And how do you make that play?  You come from behind and block it that way.  You do not go across the body, when the body is between the defender and the ball.  There is no way to make that block, unless you are 7' blocking someone who is 6', and everything is perfectly timed.  He had no chance to block the ball, unless he went through the player.

Was he going for the ball or the player?  I can't read Ariza's mind, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.  I think he was frustrated, and as a result it became excessive, but (at least in my opinion) there was absolutely no way he could make a play on that ball considering the angle he was coming from.  So regardless of his intent, he had no realistic chance at making a play on the ball.  Since he couldn't have made a play on the ball, he would have to go through the player to get to the ball.  Going through the player was excessive, and in my opinion should have warranted a greater punishment

[Skandery]

You know very well that using ONE still photo

Westkoast,

Well most accounts haven't satisfied Lurker, the video really didn't help, Reality suggested a still photo . . .

Perhaps some still shots will help lurker overcome his vision

. . . so I found one.  True it is only one still shot, but from the angle of that photo I don't see how anyone can claim Ariza went for the ball.  He went for a general, broad wave swipe that may luck into touching some ball but will at least knock a player down.

I also disagree with the notion that a player makes a play, to make a play, no matter the consequences.  There are some situations where the timing and the angles preclude a defender from making a play without injuring someone.  Ariza had absolutely NO angle to make the play without hurting (and in this case severely hurting) Fernandez.  This is very different from the Tayshaun Prince/Reggie Miller block as seen in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDgg0iWFUpU

The angle, as Ziggy talks about, allowed Prince to make a clean play on the ball itself.  Whereas Fernandez' body was completely between Ariza and the ball, he couldn't have gotten to the ball without going through Fernandez which he did.

[Joe Vancil]

Essentially, I'm in agreement with Ziggy and Skander here.

Sometimes, a player simply CANNOT make a play on the ball.  Those are the times that, as a sportsman, you have to either concede the lay-up, or commit a foul in a way that you won't hurt the player but will stop the play. 

Ariza did neither.  He chose, as is so often the case with flagrant fouls, to stop the play NO MATTER WHAT.  In what was essentially a blow-out game, THAT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN.  It's called SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.

Sure, like any basketball fan, I want to see players that play hard, or that get drummed out of the league for not playing hard (which should have been the result for Stephon Marbury).  And sure, I don't want to see players quit on plays.  But at the same time, if that's Dwight Howard going up for a dunk with two hands, and Ariza is coming TOWARD him instead of blindly behind, Ariza ain't going up for a block.  I expect the same kind of awareness to consequences when your play means that you'll be hurting a player as you'd have when it's your own body you're protecting.

I've yet to see ANYONE make a block like the one Ariza was trying to make.  Prince got a clean angle.  Ditto with a couple of Bobby Jones plays.  Or Olajuwon vs. Strickland.  NONE of those involved a player flailing wildly at an opponent - especially in the vicinity of a player's HEAD.  On the other hand, pretty much every wild flail that connected with anything resulted in a flagrant foul.

[westkoast]

You know very well that using ONE still photo

Westkoast,

Well most accounts haven't satisfied Lurker, the video really didn't help, Reality suggested a still photo . . .

Perhaps some still shots will help lurker overcome his vision

. . . so I found one.  True it is only one still shot, but from the angle of that photo I don't see how anyone can claim Ariza went for the ball.  He went for a general, broad wave swipe that may luck into touching some ball but will at least knock a player down.

I also disagree with the notion that a player makes a play, to make a play, no matter the consequences.  There are some situations where the timing and the angles preclude a defender from making a play without injuring someone.  Ariza had absolutely NO angle to make the play without hurting (and in this case severely hurting) Fernandez.  This is very different from the Tayshaun Prince/Reggie Miller block as seen in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDgg0iWFUpU

The angle, as Ziggy talks about, allowed Prince to make a clean play on the ball itself.  Whereas Fernandez' body was completely between Ariza and the ball, he couldn't have gotten to the ball without going through Fernandez which he did.

You know the point I was trying to make.  You are using ONE still photo to say he never made a play on the ball.  That can be done with ANY play.  I can show you still photos of AK47 not making a play on the ball even though that might not have been the case.

[WayOutWest]

Lurker, the Lakers were being run off the court to the tune of 25 points.  And there's Rudy sailing in for a dunk.  With absolutely no "clean" way of making a play on the ball (much like with Wallace), is it THAT hard to believe Ariza was frustrated?  His contact was, by definition, "excessive and unnecessary".

I disagree. Ariza does not seem like one of those guys.  Ariza was trying to make a defensive statement NOT a cheap shot statement.

Ariza did hit Rudy on the hand/ball, it was not a head hunting expedition.