Timmy Dunks injury

[Joe Vancil]

Yes you can.  That's what efficiency and per minute statistics are for.  A representation of their impact regardless of time on the floor. 

Yet another example of a stat that doesn't fully factor everything in.  You have a guy who is starting vs a guy who doesn't have a solid place he fills in at yet and you think they can directly be compared?

Rondo gets to play every single game no matter what.  Marbury on the other hand has his minutes based on what is going on with Rondo.  Clearly a stat doesn't fully factor in the difficulty of coming off the bench, at random times, when you are in the role Marbury is.

Who is touting Rondo a Top 3 point guard?  Ziggy stated he thought Boston was more a Big 4 than Big 3, and honestly, I stand more behind that statement than somebody saying "a large majority of PGs in the NBA could replace Rondo on the Celtics and they wouldn't miss a beat."  I also never said Rondo was a Top 3 PG, I argue the notion that he is overrated and easily replaceable for Boston.  I mean isn't this whole argument proof that he isn't overrated?

A lot of people call him one of the very best PGs in the league.  The guy gets talked about on ESPN and the likes more than Deron Williams does.  Have you not noticed that?    This whole argument is not proof that he isn't overrated btw.  It's just an argument.  You have 3 people arguing for Rondo (yourself, joe, ziggy) and 3 people who say he is not exceptional (wow, myself, lurker).

So back to the premise, you say that teams let Rondo shoot outside making him the weakest link.  Well, teams let Dennis Rodman shoot outside for the Chicago Bulls (96-98), did that make him the weakest link on that team.  I remember teams letting Gary Payton shoot from outside for those 90s Sonics, did that make him the weakest link.  So Rondo can't shoot, so what!  There's more to basketball that perimeter shooting and I'm surprised a Parker fan like Lurker can't admire that in a player like Rondo.

He wasn't the strongest link was he?  He certainly was not the 3rd guy in the Big 3 was he?  No.  He was a solid role player who did what he needed to do.  I don't deny that is what Rondo is.  What I am saying is he is a solid player on an exceptional team but by no means exceptional himself.

Not only does his jump shot stink, he really is not that great of a passer.  I can think of a lot of point guards who are better passers than he is.  Including Andre Miller and Devin Harris.  Two guys not exactly at the very top of the PG list in this league (again back to my point of him NOT being exceptional)

I did too, Perk is a weaker link IMO . . . . (while Pierce and Allen can be occassionally).

Nope, Perk provides toughness in the paint.  Part of the reason the Celtics are so good is they really wear teams down with their defense and their physical style of play.

If Rondo was exceptional or as good as you guys want to make him out to be I think it would show on the court more often against quality opponents.  Yesterday was a big game, he didn't have to chase AI, and he came up short.   The same can be said at the home loss to the Spurs and the home loss to the Lakers. 

15-16 points a game and 7 assists he solid and effective but it is not exceptional.  To me exceptional and to warrant constantly being talked about on SportsCenter looks more like a Chris Paul or Deron Williams stat line.  Where you see CP3 get 30 and 15 with 4 steals.  Or Deron go 25 13.

Agreed that people talk more about him than they should. 

Now explain to me why folks talk about Tony Parker the way they do.  Or Mike Bibby they way they used to.  Outside of scoring, you'll have a tough time convincing me that either of these guys has ever been as good as Rondo has been in Boston.  And it's not like they played with chopped liver, either.

[Reality]

How would you do in a Greg Poppycock offense, Joe?

[SPURSX3]

How would you do in a Greg Poppycock offense, Joe?

"How are my stats coach?"   

[westkoast]

Yes you can.  That's what efficiency and per minute statistics are for.  A representation of their impact regardless of time on the floor. 

Yet another example of a stat that doesn't fully factor everything in.  You have a guy who is starting vs a guy who doesn't have a solid place he fills in at yet and you think they can directly be compared?

Rondo gets to play every single game no matter what.  Marbury on the other hand has his minutes based on what is going on with Rondo.  Clearly a stat doesn't fully factor in the difficulty of coming off the bench, at random times, when you are in the role Marbury is.

Who is touting Rondo a Top 3 point guard?  Ziggy stated he thought Boston was more a Big 4 than Big 3, and honestly, I stand more behind that statement than somebody saying "a large majority of PGs in the NBA could replace Rondo on the Celtics and they wouldn't miss a beat."  I also never said Rondo was a Top 3 PG, I argue the notion that he is overrated and easily replaceable for Boston.  I mean isn't this whole argument proof that he isn't overrated?

A lot of people call him one of the very best PGs in the league.  The guy gets talked about on ESPN and the likes more than Deron Williams does.  Have you not noticed that?    This whole argument is not proof that he isn't overrated btw.  It's just an argument.  You have 3 people arguing for Rondo (yourself, joe, ziggy) and 3 people who say he is not exceptional (wow, myself, lurker).

So back to the premise, you say that teams let Rondo shoot outside making him the weakest link.  Well, teams let Dennis Rodman shoot outside for the Chicago Bulls (96-98), did that make him the weakest link on that team.  I remember teams letting Gary Payton shoot from outside for those 90s Sonics, did that make him the weakest link.  So Rondo can't shoot, so what!  There's more to basketball that perimeter shooting and I'm surprised a Parker fan like Lurker can't admire that in a player like Rondo.

He wasn't the strongest link was he?  He certainly was not the 3rd guy in the Big 3 was he?  No.  He was a solid role player who did what he needed to do.  I don't deny that is what Rondo is.  What I am saying is he is a solid player on an exceptional team but by no means exceptional himself.

Not only does his jump shot stink, he really is not that great of a passer.  I can think of a lot of point guards who are better passers than he is.  Including Andre Miller and Devin Harris.  Two guys not exactly at the very top of the PG list in this league (again back to my point of him NOT being exceptional)

I did too, Perk is a weaker link IMO . . . . (while Pierce and Allen can be occassionally).

Nope, Perk provides toughness in the paint.  Part of the reason the Celtics are so good is they really wear teams down with their defense and their physical style of play.

If Rondo was exceptional or as good as you guys want to make him out to be I think it would show on the court more often against quality opponents.  Yesterday was a big game, he didn't have to chase AI, and he came up short.   The same can be said at the home loss to the Spurs and the home loss to the Lakers. 

15-16 points a game and 7 assists he solid and effective but it is not exceptional.  To me exceptional and to warrant constantly being talked about on SportsCenter looks more like a Chris Paul or Deron Williams stat line.  Where you see CP3 get 30 and 15 with 4 steals.  Or Deron go 25 13.

Agreed that people talk more about him than they should. 

Now explain to me why folks talk about Tony Parker the way they do.  Or Mike Bibby they way they used to.  Outside of scoring, you'll have a tough time convincing me that either of these guys has ever been as good as Rondo has been in Boston.  And it's not like they played with chopped liver, either.

3 Championships and a finals MVP can be a starting point.  When has Rondo taken over a playoff series the way Parker did against Utah and Cleveland?  I do agree that Tony Parker's passing leaves some to be desired.  He is not poor at it but he also doesn't get a lot of assists.  Part of that has to do with his passing skills and part of that has to do with his job being to throw the ball into Duncan to let him operate.

Honestly what's up with 2 Jazz fans not agreeing that Rondo gets talked about entirely too much compared to Deron Willians who actually is an exceptional talent.

[WayOutWest]

You have 3 people arguing for Rondo (yourself, joe, ziggy) and 3 people who say he is not exceptional (wow, myself, lurker).

Talk about torpedoing your own argument.

Joe's argument is Rondo knows he sucks and since, acording to GI Joe, "knowing is half the battle" he's got the advantage over TP.  TP through his ignorance won a Finals MVP and is clearly the moron.

I have more to write but I have to go and "glad hand" a couple of Clippers guys who hooked me up with some tickets to 2nites game plus some VIP treatment.  The Clippers must be desperate for comping me tickets, parking, and autographs for 2nites games considering I haven't been a season ticket holder in over two years.

[SPURSX3]

You have 3 people arguing for Rondo (yourself, joe, ziggy) and 3 people who say he is not exceptional (wow, myself, lurker).

Talk about torpedoing your own argument.

Joe's argument is Rondo knows he sucks and since, acording to GI Joe, "knowing is half the battle" he's got the advantage over TP.  TP through his ignorance won a Finals MVP and is clearly the moron.

I have more to write but I have to go and "glad hand" a couple of Clippers guys who hooked me up with some tickets to 2nites game plus some VIP treatment.  The Clippers must be desperate for comping me tickets, parking, and autographs for 2nites games considering I haven't been a season ticket holder in over two years.

Again, "how are my stats coach?"   

[ziggy]

Interesting comparison

http://www.wagesofwins.com/RoseFeb09.html

As rookies
Win Score   Win Score = PTS + REB + STL + 1/2*BLK + 1/2*AST - FGA - 1/2*FTA - TO - 1/2*PF

Derrick Rose  -  6.1
Chris Paul  -  11.5
Deron Williams  -  3.6
Rajon Rondo  -  8.0
Jason Kidd  -  8.0

Wins shares adjusted to actual win/loss as opposed to pythagorean, assuming that the variation is due to over weighting bias contained specifically in Rondo's stats.  That of course is using a sample of just these 5 players.  The margin for error implicit in win shares is far less than this adjustment.
Derrick Rose  -  6.1
Paul  -  13.2
Williams  -  4.5
Rondo  -  6.2
Kidd - 8.7

[Skandery]

Honestly what's up with 2 Jazz fans not agreeing that Rondo gets talked about entirely too much compared to Deron Willians who actually is an exceptional talent.

Deron Williams' game isn't the one being denigrated.  The minute we hear the words Deron Williams, over-rated, and replaceable bandied about in the same sentence, trust us we'll be here. 

Now admittedly I don't have cable so I don't watch ESPN or Foxsports (I do read plenty of sports articles on Yahoo + ESPN), but as yet I haven't heard or read that Rondo is given an inordinate amount of hype.  I'd like to think of myself as pretty sensitive to hype.  I remember being conciously aware of the fact that I began to like Vince Carter less and less as the hype surrounding him (circa 2001) could literally be cut with a knife.  The same thing (to a lesser extent) happened with Kobe (circa 2000).

[westkoast]

Now admittedly I don't have cable so I don't watch ESPN or Foxsports (I do read plenty of sports articles on Yahoo + ESPN), but as yet I haven't heard or read that Rondo is given an inordinate amount of hype.

Ok well Skandery, let's join the rest of the world before you comment on it then  .  He gets talked about on ESPN and by ESPN commentators like no other.  It's really quite annoying because he has one real nice stat line every 4 games. 

Again, I make the point that just because you say a player is overrated/overhyped doesn't mean you think they are a worthless player.  How many times do I need to say that he is a solid player (which is why I drafted him in fantasy remember?) but he gets talked about entirely too much for what he is as a player.  Solid player on an exceptional team but not exceptional himself.

[Reality]

Duncs looked good again last night working the Clips over at Sthaplez.
Altho vs a Pacific Patsy division team is no real test.  Oh to be in that division.  What a cakewalk.

Hou and New Orleans knocking at the Spurs door, we'll have to see if Duncan is back 100% or not.

[WayOutWest]

Now admittedly I don't have cable so I don't watch ESPN or Foxsports ...

OMG!  STFU then Skandy.  If we need to play FNBA or see the league through and Excel spreadsheet then you can join the discussion!

BUGGER OFF!

[Skandery]

Solid player on an exceptional team but not exceptional himself.

Ok, wk, that's a much better stance than "overrated and eminently replaceable".  On that we can somewhat agree.

Duncs looked good again last night working the Clips over at Sthaplez.
Altho vs a Pacific Patsy division team is no real test.  Oh to be in that division.  What a cakewalk.

Hou and New Orleans knocking at the Spurs door, we'll have to see if Duncan is back 100% or not.

Dammit Reality!!  Stop trying to get this thread back on topic. 

OMG!  STFU then Skandy.  If we need to play FNBA or see the league through and Excel spreadsheet then you can join the discussion!

WayOutWest . . . flattery will get you nowhere!!

[Reality]

The Savior of the Spurs*

*this photo taken from SpursTalk.  Hence don't get all excited WoW, thinking you're Matlock again.  Or wait, make that Raymond Burr in Ironside.  More fitting.

[westkoast]

The Savior of the Spurs*

*this photo taken from SpursTalk.  Hence don't get all excited WoW, thinking you're Matlock again.  Or wait, make that Raymond Burr in Ironside.  More fitting.

He must have dyed his beard because I heard from a RealSpurs insider that he's actually 45 years old.

[Reality]

Dunks looking good again.  Ready to add #5?