Author Topic: The Next Big Stink, The killjoys are back. What do they have in store for us?  (Read 13908 times)

Offline westkoast

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Ziggy you are awesome!  Reason being is I was following along with what you've been saying but when you put it in a basketball reference I was like 'OHHHHHHHHHH'
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline ziggy

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I saw this article today.  I have posted Wesbury before, and he is far more upbeat than most right now.  He believes we will have a significant run up starting late in Qtr 2, mainly because of massive money supply increases from the Fed.  He is very much in the camp of "Inflation is Coming".  I don't see a significant turnaround anywhere that soon, though I do have some inflation concerns.  Here are a couple of graphs of various money supply measurements

Note how much the money supply increased starting in 2003-2004.
http://www.mises.org/content/nofed/makegraph.php?tms=true&unit=lin&range=max&bars=true&size=med&Make+Graph=make



The monetary base.  Note what has happened just recently, which explains much of Wesbury's concerns. This is the change in M1 year over year, note the recent increase.  It is a mirror opposite of the BDI.
http://www.mises.org/content/nofed/makegraph.php?m1=true&unit=ch1&range=max&bars=true&size=med&Make+Graph=make



This is a very interesting article on the stimulus plan.  The chart from The Office of Management & Budget, Bureau of Labor Statistics, and Haver Analytics is stunning.  This is why I have very grave concerns about the stimulus, what it will and will not do, how it is structured, and what logic it is based on.

Unemployment and Stimulus

By Brian Wesbury on 2.6.09 @ 5:37PM

The strangest thing happened on Friday. It was reported that the U.S. economy lost 600,000 jobs in January and the unemployment rate jumped to 7.6%, but the stock market rallied anyway. Partly, this was because the stock market is a forward-looking indicator and employment is a backward-looking indicator. If the economy is near a turning point, the stock market will reflect it well before the employment report.

But there is another explanation -- one that is believed by most of the journalistic punditry -- and that is that a bad employment report makes a stimulus package more likely. As Christina Romer (Chairwoman of the President's Council of Economic Advisors) said on Friday, "these numbers...reinforce the need for bold fiscal action." What's interesting about this is that there is absolutely no long-term economic evidence that higher government spending creates jobs.

Academic economists will debate this until the end of time, but because they have their eyes glued to the computer screen, calculating multipliers (whether a dollar of government spending means more than a dollar of growth for the economy), they rarely look out the window. So let's do it for them. This chart compares the unemployment rate back to 1960 with federal government spending as a share of GDP.

http://spectator.org/assets/mc/westbury.JPG

Clearly, the chart shows that more government spending does not create jobs. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. More government spending is correlated with higher levels of unemployment. In 1965, federal government spending was 17.2% of GDP and the unemployment rate was 4%. By 1982, spending had increased to 23.1% of GDP and unemployment had climbed to almost 11%.

Government spending then fell from its early-1980s peak back to a new low of 18.4% of GDP in 2000, and the unemployment rate fell back to a low of 3.8% in 2000. Lately, due mostly to the profligate spending of the Bush Administration, government spending has increased to 20.7% of GDP. And guess what, the unemployment rate is up, not down. In fact, for the first time in over 25 years, the unemployment rate is higher today than it was at its peak during the last recession.

And this is a very interesting development. During the quarter-century after 1982, when government spending was shrinking as a share of GDP and tax rates were cut, the unemployment rate experienced lower peaks and lower troughs during each business cycle. This was the opposite of the 1960s and 1970s, when government was growing and tax rates were rising. Then, each peak and each trough in the unemployment rate was higher in each successive business cycle.

The reality is that every dollar the federal government spends must be borrowed or taxed from the private sector. And the more resources the government usurps from the private sector, the less job creation occurs.

It is also true that most government spending is less efficient than private sector spending. While there may be a few areas that government spending makes sense -- let's say defense or some R&D -- the vast majority of government spending has nothing to do with creating new wealth. It often competes against the private sector -- the postal service and Amtrak -- and much of it is pure re-distribution.

So, this raises a serious question. Why is the government trying the same old spending stimulus that the evidence clearly shows does not work? President Carter spent billions of dollars on alternative energy plans, but unemployment rose anyway. If the U.S.  and the new administration are serious about "change" and "getting rid of the old ways of doing things," why not try something truly new?

With nearly $1 trillion dollars to spend, the government could do some astounding and positive things. The U.S. could rewrite its tax code and move to a flat tax that would make the U.S. much more competitive in the global economy. Or, we could rethink and rework the entire entitlement system, so that it wouldn't eat our budget and economy alive like Pac-Man in the next few decades. Charles Murray, in his 2006 book, In Our Hands, laid out a plan to give every American over 21 years old $10,000 per year for life in exchange for giving up Social Security, Medicare and every other welfare state program.

We can see the problems that the welfare state is causing in just about every other major industrial country around the world that is ahead of the U.S. on the demographic aging scale. Why not change our course right now and implement true change so that we don't end up like Japan or much of Western Europe? It's a shame that the U.S. is not thinking along these lines.

Yes, the political pressures of a rising unemployment rate make it difficult for politicians to think or plan for the long-term. But the U.S. has a historic opportunity today and there is still time to change course. Let's deal with the immediate banking problems by getting rid of mark-to-market accounting and creating a bad bank or whatever, but let's use our trillion dollar opportunity to make real changes that will provide a stronger economy for generations to come. Spending in the same old way as we have tried so many times in the past is a recipe for higher unemployment in future years, not lower.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 01:13:41 AM by ziggy »
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline ziggy

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This is an excellent article by Michael Pettis who is a professor at Peking University?s Guanghua School of Management, where he specializes in Chinese financial markets.

Describes the Austrian Business Cycle theory, and the concept of mal-investment, how it it lead to this crisis plus many others, and how we are not addressing the fundamental issue at all.  It also looks at what is happening in China, and how they may be taking some of the wrong steps.  It is pretty long, but it is very good.

http://mpettis.com/


Will China have to choose between social stability and long-term growth?
February 9th, 2009 by Michael

Wow! There are now rumors that Chinese net credit growth in January was substantially higher than the already-astonishing rumors of RMB 1.2 trillion I reported last week. I will get to that at the end of this entry, but I wanted first to discuss a possibly important issue related to credit intervention.

It is probably not at all controversial to suggest that the way governments in the US, China and elsewhere respond to the current crisis will determine economic growth prospects for the next decade and more, but it is probably also worth repeating this point as often as possible. In the panic to respond swiftly to some of the short-term problems facing policymakers, it would be easy for them sometimes to forget the longer-term impact of current policy responses, and so saddle us for many years with unwanted consequences.

Over the weekend I was reading a paper by Gonzalo Fern?ndez de C?rdoba (Universidad de Salamanca) and Timothy J. Kehoe (University of Minnesota), called ?The Current Financial Crisis: What Should We Learn from the Great Depressions of the Twentieth Century?? Basing their work on Great Depressions of the Twentieth Century, published in 2007 by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, in which Timothy Kehoe and Edward Prescott, together with a team of 24 economists from around the world, analyze a number of ?great depressions? experienced by various countries in the 20th Century, they try to determine the impact of policy on the subsequent severity of the contraction.

Although I always worry about ideological predispositions in these kinds of analyses (one group of economists always seems to find that government intervention made things worse, while another always seems to find that in fact specific policies helped), some of the examples they use ? in Latin America primarily ? involve countries and histories with which I am pretty familiar, and at least this part of their analysis rings true to me.

Based on the data analyzed in the book, they conclude that massive public interventions in the economy to maintain employment and investment during a financial crisis will, if they distort incentives enough, make things much worse. I guess that probably wouldn?t come as a very controversial statement to anyone, but what interested me was that they seemed to focus especially on ways that governments have intervened in credit markets and in investment decisions. Two examples were especially illuminating, Mexico and Chile ? which both experienced massive crises beginning in 1982, the year which usually signals the beginning of the LDC Debt Crisis (or the ?lost decade?, as Latin Americans call it). Their policy responses in the financial sector were radically different:

In 1982 in Chile, banks that held half of the deposits were suffering severe liquidity crises. The government took control of these banks. Within three years, the Chilean government had liquidated the insolvent banks and reprivatized the solvent banks. The government set up a new regulatory scheme to avoid mismanagement. These new regulations allowed the market to determine interest rates and the allocation of credit to firms. The short-term costs of the crisis and the reform in Chile were severe, and real GDP fell sharply in 1982 and 1983. By 1984, however, the Chilean economy started to grow, and Chile has been the fastest-growing country in Latin America since then.

In 1982 in Mexico, the government nationalized the entire banking system, and banks were only reprivatized in the early 1990s. Throughout the 1980s, in an effort to maintain employment and investment, the government-controlled banks provided credit at below-market interest rates to some large firms and no credit to others. Even the privatization of banks in the early 1990s and the reforms following the 1995 crisis have not been effective in producing a banking system that provides substantial credit at market interest rates to firms in Mexico. The result has been an economic disaster for Mexico: Between 1982 and 1995, Mexico experienced no economic growth and has grown only modestly since then.

The differences in economic performance in Chile and Mexico since the early 1980s have not been in employment and investment, but in productivity. In Chile, unproductive firms have died and new firms have been born and grown. Workers and capital have been channeled from unproductive to productive firms. In Mexico, a poorly functioning financial system has impeded this process.

GDP per working age person in Mexico declined substantially in the 1980s and only began recovering by 1988, but a second banking crisis in 1995 eroded much of the recovery and as of today it has still not reached its 1982 peak. In Chile, the decline at first was much sharper. In two years GPP per worker in Chile dropped by around 20%, which it took six years to happen in Mexico. However productivity growth surged thereafter so that by 1988 it had fully recovered to 1982 levels and as of today it has doubled. Chile, as most of us know, has been for the past twenty years the fastest growing country in Latin America, even though it as among the worst hit by the debt crisis.

The main point the paper seems to want to make is that intervention in the allocation of credit had a huge impact on the way the country was able (or not) to recover from the crisis and regain productivity growth:

Japan suffered a financial crisis in the early 1990s and followed similar sorts of policies as Mexico, keeping otherwise insolvent banks running, providing credit to some firms and not others, and using massive fiscal stimulus programs to maintain employment and investment. Japan has stagnated since then. Finland also suffered a financial crisis in the early 1990s and followed similar sorts of policies as Chile, paying the costs of reform and letting the market dictate the allocation of credit to the private sector. The Finnish economy has grown spectacularly since then.

What implications this might have for Chinese policy-making in response to the current crisis? Again, we always need to protect ourselves from conclusions that owe more to ideology than evidence, but at the very least we should consider the possibility that massive intervention in the banking system, for all the short-term countercyclical benefits (i.e. banks are forced to expand, to satisfy policy interests, rather than contract, to satisfy commercial interests) can create serious enough distortions that Chinese growth for the next decade or so might be sharply constrained. In their words:

We need to avoid implementing policies that stifle productivity by providing bad incentives to the private sector. With banks and other financial institutions in crisis, the government needs to focus on providing liquidity so that banks can provide credit at market interest rates, and using the market mechanism, to productive firms. Unproductive firms need to die. This is as true for the automobile industry as it is for the banking system. Bailouts and other financial efforts to keep unproductive firms in operation depress productivity. These firms absorb labor and capital that are better used by productive firms. The market makes better decisions than does the government on which firms should survive and which should die.

Of course someone will inevitably argue that it actually makes commercial sense for Chinese banks to expand loans now, since there is likely to be an implicit, or even explicit, guarantee that makes most new lending essentially risk-free. Yes, of course, but that doesn?t change the underlying logic. Banks will be channeling capital to companies not based on their economic prospects but rather based on the guarantee, and so little commercial distinction will be made between healthy and unhealthy borrowers. My guess, and not a particularly controversial one I suppose, is that the provision of implicit or explicit government guarantees will have more to do with a company?s impact on employment than its economic prospects.

I don?t want to overstate the relevance of market versus government allocation of credit, but by the late mid-1980s, when I first started trading Latin American debt, it was pretty clear that Chilean banks were in much better shape than were Mexican banks, and were much more independent (Mexican banks were not privatized until the early 1990s). I specialized primarily in Mexican debt and bonds until I ended up running the Latin American trading desk, so losing my country focus, but it did always seem to me that the Mexican financial system was a lot less prudent than the Chilean, and government ?guidance? had a very big impact on credit allocation.

Before someone suggests that perhaps poor guidance leading to credit misallocation might be less of a problem in well-governed China than in poorly-governed Mexico, I would argue that much of China?s recent growth came about because of the massive expansion in credit, and while the sheer size of the expansion guaranteed that there would be many years of bubble-like growth, we will only now, over the next three to five years, discover whether or not the capital was indeed misallocated on a massive scale. I think it was.

The paper makes a point of saying that the difference in subsequent GDP growth between countries that intervened heavily in credit allocation versus countries that didn?t was not a function of different levels of employment, but rather different growth rates in worker productivity. There were no noticeable differences in employment levels between countries that followed one strategy versus the other.

In that case one can make the argument that if the goal of policy is to minimize social disruption, the ?Mexican model? may actually be better than the ?Chilean model? because while neither model created a noticeable difference in employment levels, in Mexico an economic contraction roughly similar in magnitude took six years, versus the two years it took in Chile. Mexico may have achieved this socially less disruptive adjustment at the expense of sharply lower levels of productivity growth over the long term, and perhaps this is the tradeoff that governments face in dealing with crises. Japan, it seems to me, also chose a socially less disruptive model, in exchange for a lost decade of growth.

In other words the best policy advice for the government to maximize China?s growth prospects, based on the Fernandez and Hehoe paper, is probably politically unpalatable. It would involve acknowledging that too much capital was allocated to production, and that a period of consolidation is necessary. Unfortunately this consolidation means that capital migrate in a major way from less productive users to more productive users, which is just a bloodless way of saying that a lot of companies are going to have to be allowed to fail, and banks and financial markets should be weaned away from political control and encouraged to make their own commercial decisions.

But should this happen in the midst of a global crisis? On the one hand, in China ? and probably most other countries ? real reform only seems to occur after a crisis, and so this is an important opportunity to get things right. On the other hand global conditions are too ugly for China to allow bankruptcies to take their swiftest course, and so undermining the social pact, so a strong case can be made for intervening heavily now and reforming later. Ultimately this is a political question that the Chinese must make: is there a tradeoff between long-term growth and short-term instability, and if so, which should China choose?

As I noted at the beginning of this entry, hot off the press is some related news about credit intervention. In an entry last week I mentioned the astonishing RMB1.2 trillion increase in loans that had been unofficially reported for January. This was a full 50% more than the previous monthly record, and nearly one-quarter of the total increase in 2008 (to be fair however January is traditionally always a big month for new lending).

Although this was seen widely as good news for the economy, since credit expansion will probably goose up the short-term GDP and employment numbers, I of course worried about exactly how much of this was real and, more importantly, how much of this will end up as future NPLs. It seemed to me that even the most prudent and commercial banking system in the world cannot expand at this rate without shoveling in an awful lot of garbage, and loan expansion of this base represented a gamble on the duration of the global contraction.

Well, it seems I was wrong. Reuters has just announced that net new lending may have actually been and even more surprising RMB 1.6 trillion ? twice the previous monthly record and an amazing one-third of credit growth in all of 2008. We will know by February 15 at the latest, when the PBoC publishes lending data, but if this is true (and the report was seen as highly credible by one of my friends at Reuters) it will probably goose the stock market up further while making people like me more worried then ever. Since for me much of the Chinese growth explosion of the past several years was caused by a badly allocated credit boom, the idea that the solution to a slowdown is to jack up the credit boom even further is very worrying. It is a little like the idea that the best way for the US to adjust to the decline in its debt-fueled household consumption binge is to replace it with a debt-fueled government consumption binge, although perhaps the US and China would choose very differently in the possible trade-off between long-term growth and short-term social stability.

At any rate if this number is true, and if these credit growth levels persist, at least it suggests China is very serious about contributing its share of global fiscal expansion. This should be part of China?s negotiations with the US on trade relationships.

A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline jn

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Used to love PJ, especially Parliament of Whores.   This stuff, however, is the same dead horse he's been flogging for years and at this point it's not funny or insightful.  It's just whiny and juvenile.
"My only regret in life is that I did not drink more champagne."  -John Maynard Keynes

Offline Lurker

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Here is an interesting bit from the Wall Street Journal on Reaganomics vs Obamanomics.  It also puts the current economic downturn in more historic terms.  Our economy under Carter was worse than today...higher unemployment, higher inflation, rising poverty, etc.  This current downturn is not the "worse since the great depression".  Fear mongering at its worse.  Bush sold us war based on fear; Obama sells us massive deficit spending based on fear.


Quote
In his inaugural address, President Barack Obama said, "The question we ask today is not whether our government is too big or too small, but whether it works -- whether it helps families find jobs at a decent wage, care they can afford, a retirement that is dignified." Or as administration spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said in January, the touchstone is, "What will have the biggest and most immediate impact on creating private sector jobs and strengthening the middle class? We're guided by what works, not by any ideology or special interests."

Unfortunately, this rhetoric is not true. Mr. Obama's economic policy is following not what has been proven to work but liberal ideology.

The best way to understand this is to compare what's being proposed now with what Ronald Reagan accomplished. In 1980, amid a seriously dysfunctional economy, Reagan campaigned for president on an economic recovery program with four specific components.

The first was across-the-board reductions in tax rates to provide incentives for saving, investment, entrepreneurship and work. The second component was deregulation to remove unnecessary costs on the economy. In today's world, that would especially mean removing the onerous restrictions on energy production -- allowing drilling offshore and onshore for oil and natural gas, revival of the nuclear power industry, and construction of more electric power plants.

Third was the control of government spending. In 1981, Reagan forced through Congress not only his famed, historic tax cuts, but also a package of budget cuts close to 5% of the federal budget -- equivalent to roughly $150 billion today. In constant dollars, nondefense discretionary spending declined by 14.4% from 1981 to 1982, and by 16.8% from 1981 to 1983. Moreover, in constant dollars, this nondefense discretionary spending never returned to its 1981 level for the rest of Reagan's two terms. By 1988, this spending was still down 14.4% from its 1981 level in constant dollars.

Even with the Reagan defense buildup, which helped win the Cold War, total federal spending declined to 21.2% of GDP in 1989 from 23.5% of GDP in 1983. That's a real reduction of 10% in the size of government relative to the economy.

The fourth component of the Reagan recovery plan was tight, anti-inflation monetary policy, which was spectacularly successful. Inflation was cut in half to 6.2% in 1982 from 13.2% in 1980, and cut in half again to 3.2% in 1983.

We know such policies work because they turned around in just two years an economy far worse than today's. We were suffering from multiyear, double-digit inflation, double-digit unemployment, double-digit interest rates, declining incomes, and rising poverty. In fact, what we suffer with today is not the worst economy since the Great Depression, but the worst economy since Jimmy Carter -- the last time liberals were dominant politically and intellectually.

The Obama administration's economic policies do not include any of the four Reagan components. In fact, the stimulus plan is the greatest increase in government spending in the history of the planet. Meanwhile, the Fed is furiously reinflating, sowing more havoc down the line. Mr. Obama is still promising future increases in tax rates by letting the Bush tax cuts lapse, because for ideological reasons he thinks even current rates are too low. And instead of deregulating for more energy production, he is still promising massive increases in regulatory barriers -- through global warming cap-and-trade legislation -- to increased production from proven energy sources to serve an extreme environmentalist ideology.

This is why America seems so hopeless right now, and so depressed. We are stuck going in exactly the wrong direction on economic policy because of currently dominant ideological fashions.

A natural economic recovery will begin sometime this year, not because of the president's policies, but because soon this will be the longest recession since World War II. However, thanks to the administration's retrograde policies -- cut from the cloth of the 1970s and even the 1930s -- the recovery will not be what it should be. Rather, unemployment will remain too high, and inflation will resurge, recreating the disastrous economic results we suffered the last time Keynesian policies were dominant.

It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline ziggy

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Lurker,
Did you have a chance to read the article at
http://mises.org/story/3301
I would really like to hear your take, as an accountant.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Lurker

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Lurker,
Did you have a chance to read the article at
http://mises.org/story/3301
I would really like to hear your take, as an accountant.

I did read it ziggy.  Just haven't had a chance to write a response.  I think there are a lot of unintended consequences but on the other hand I also think there are benefits to the mark-to-market rules.  New rules that allow preparers and/or owners of financial statements to set value as they see fit are not good.  Mark to market will always fall apart when the market for something disappears.  Rules...financial as well as NBA...are only as good as the consistant enforcement/regulation of the rules.

I will try to write something more detailed this weekend.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Skandery

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Sorry Lurker, but that article was lame.  At the very least, P.J. O'Rourke made me chuckle.

Quote
In constant dollars, nondefense discretionary spending declined by 14.4% from 1981 to 1982, and by 16.8% from 1981 to 1983. Moreover, in constant dollars, this nondefense discretionary spending never returned to its 1981 level for the rest of Reagan's two terms. By 1988, this spending was still down 14.4% from its 1981 level in constant dollars.

"Lets cut everything government does for people except build bombs and planes to kill people" -- this would be awesome if we lived in a militarocracy.

Quote
Even with the Reagan defense buildup, which helped win the Cold War

This nauseating, oft-repeated, "conventional" piece of wisdom has been summarily proven false time and again.

Quote
In fact, the stimulus plan is the greatest increase in government spending in the history of the planet.

Let's label this, what, 836, maybe $837 billion pakcage the greatest liberal tragedy for fiscal responsibility in the (cue Bill Walton) HISTORY OF MANKIND!!  I'll bet my lunch money for the month, this guy was nowhere to be found when Reagan's wee liddle nephew Georgie Dubya got a free pass for $700 billion spent mostly on Corporate junkets and Executive bonuses.  Give me a break!
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Lurker

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Sorry Lurker, but that article was lame.  At the very least, P.J. O'Rourke made me chuckle.

Quote
In constant dollars, nondefense discretionary spending declined by 14.4% from 1981 to 1982, and by 16.8% from 1981 to 1983. Moreover, in constant dollars, this nondefense discretionary spending never returned to its 1981 level for the rest of Reagan's two terms. By 1988, this spending was still down 14.4% from its 1981 level in constant dollars.

"Lets cut everything government does for people except build bombs and planes to kill people" -- this would be awesome if we lived in a militarocracy.

This is...despite your "alarmist" language...basically what the founding fathers wanted.  A country where men could pursue their own path to wealth (i.e. work vs birth) and that govt was EXTREMELY limited.  That is why they tried so hard to give massive rights to the States where men could govern themselves locally.  They believed a large central govt led to tyranny...and didn't Bush prove them right.  Our national govt was tasked with very few things...national defense chief among them.  Almost every single social safety net (i.e. discretionary govt spending program) has been a SOCIALIST Democratic party brainchild.  The more govt does for the people the more dependant they became upon that and the more they feel entitled to that support.

Quote
Even with the Reagan defense buildup, which helped win the Cold War

This nauseating, oft-repeated, "conventional" piece of wisdom has been summarily proven false time and again.

Actually it has been proven to be a part of the solution.  There has been many other factors put forth also that have merit.  But none of those things ended the Cold War in and by themselves.


Quote
In fact, the stimulus plan is the greatest increase in government spending in the history of the planet.

Let's label this, what, 836, maybe $837 billion pakcage the greatest liberal tragedy for fiscal responsibility in the (cue Bill Walton) HISTORY OF MANKIND!!  I'll bet my lunch money for the month, this guy was nowhere to be found when Reagan's wee liddle nephew Georgie Dubya got a free pass for $700 billion spent mostly on Corporate junkets and Executive bonuses.  Give me a break!

WOW!  What a jump in assumptions and Randy-like reading comprehension.  I don't see anything about Bush in that article.  And by your own admission Bush didn't follow Reagan's blueprint.  So I have a hard time seeing how that relates to this...except that Obama is going to follow in the same MASSIVE DEFICIT SPENDING blueprint that Bushy II did.  And that is a big part of the problem...our govt cannot borrow its way out of our collective overborrowing that caused the problem in the first place.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline Skandery

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Quote
This is...despite your "alarmist" language...basically what the founding fathers wanted.

Oh yes, we all know what the founding fathers wanted.  These were men which (with very little reason mind you) saw fit to revolt against their government over a tax system that was the LOWEST and MOST LENIENT in the entire British Empire.  These guys hated two things:  1) government and 2) taxes, you'll get no arguments here.  So they tried stripping national goverment of all power and invested most of it in the states in a document called the "Articles of Confederation".  I'm hazy, Lurker, can you tell me what became of that whole experiment . . . .

What you call "alarmist", I call "plain-spoken"--to borrow an oft-repeated conservative platitude.

Quote
Almost every single social safety net (i.e. discretionary govt spending program) has been a SOCIALIST Democratic party brainchild.

Okay tell me what percentage of the total pie comprises these programs not including Social Security and Healthcare.  Unless of course you want to completely do away with Social Security and Healthcare--good luck finding a candidate with that platform.  670 schools with an enrollment of 3000 students can buy $100 textbooks for each student for 10 years for the cost of ONE B-2 bomber.

1 out of 5 of your tax dollars goes to ONE department.  1 out of 6 of your tax dollars funds every social program (save SS and HC), that every filthy democrat saw fit to fund by the gov't.  And that's if you actually BELIEVE the deception.  Most groups have the number at 1 out of 2 of your tax dollars goes to ONE department, while at most 1 out of $10 funds gov't programs (and that number incl. SS and HC). 

Why is the government budget a lie?  They don't take into account interest owed on past borrowing to fund ginormous military budgets.     

Quote
What a jump in assumptions and Randy-like reading comprehension.

I simply want to know why Obama's stimulus is a putrid representation of all that is filthy about liberal free-spending idealogy and Bush's stimulus was necessary for our economic survival if you read 3rd rate conservative hacks like the guy who wrote your article.
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline rickortreat

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Thanks for the posts, Ziggy. The only economists you should pay attention to are from the Austrian school. Inflation is definitely on it's way, but it hasn't found it's way into the stock market yet.  And, I'm not exactly sure how these captial inflows will actually enter the economy.

The market is still heading down, but I'm not sure if we break below the lows seen late last year.  Gold is definitely on it's way up.  The short interests keep loosing the battle.  It seems $1,000/oz. is back in play.

This is much more like the great depression than the Carter era, and Reganomics were a disaster, if you examine the economy after he left. We didn't have a huge market correction under Carter like we have here. We didn't have a finacial implosion of epic proportions under Carter.  We didn't have major investment banks going out of business under Carter.  This is about as close to the great depression scenario the markets have seen since the '29 crash.

There is a great deal of uncertainty since the capital markets are still locked up to a great extent.  In other words the impetus for economic growth is not in the hands of capitalists, but the government. Governments are pragmatic but not good long-term thinkers. They often do what is expedient, and they make things much worse.  There is a real danger that protectionist legislation will start to appear with the result being a decline in world trade. Most economies suffer under such curcumstances, and the US has become so integrated with the rest of the world that it's likely we would suffer as well, in spite of the fact that participating in the world economy is the source of our relative decline in economic well-being.

The last couple of years have brought massive mal-investment world wide.  There have to be losses, as non-viable businesses are cleared out in favor of profitable ones. governments don't want to see people unemployed so they try to prop up the failed institutions and create make-work projects.  There is no reason why governments can't make smart choices about how to allocate capital.  If the projects create real wealth, then they are a good regardless of how they are financed.  The Hoover dam is a great example of positive government spending. So are projects that support sustainable growth or increase productive capacity.

In the meantime, I'm still betting on recession and Gold. I'd like to see Obama focus on making the US more energy independent by investing in passive energy projects like those that create electricity from waves. It would be nice if we didn't have to spend so much on military adventures to keep oil flowing. It is time to take oil out of the equation before we run out of it.

Offline Lurker

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There are a lot more social programs than Social Security and Healthcare.  And even then I am assuming when you say healthcare you are including Aid to Dependent Children, Chips, Disease Control, AIDS/Cancer/etc research as well as Medicare & Medicaid.

Education

Unemployment

Farm Subsidies

Food Stamps

School Lunch Programs

Arts Endowments


There are billions of tax dollars being spent on things that the founding fathers never dreamed that a national govt would be involved in.

As far as the Articles of Confederation...it was the precursor to the constitution.  It was an agreement among sovereign states to band together for the common good.  And so the founders fled a country looking for less govt control and less taxation.  They succeeded for over 100 years without needing a national income tax to fund the government.  The current income tax system was put in place to pay for WWI.  The fact that there was a market boom and bubble bursting around the time those debts were retired gave a Democratic led govt a reason to establish other ways to spend that revenue: The New Deal.  Once govt spending programs are put in place they continue to grow.  This is what Reagan temporarily reversed...the growth of non-essential national govt spending.



It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
-Moody Blues

Offline rickortreat

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There are a lot more social programs than Social Security and Healthcare.  And even then I am assuming when you say healthcare you are including Aid to Dependent Children, Chips, Disease Control, AIDS/Cancer/etc research as well as Medicare & Medicaid.

Education

Unemployment

Farm Subsidies

Food Stamps

School Lunch Programs

Arts Endowments


There are billions of tax dollars being spent on things that the founding fathers never dreamed that a national govt would be involved in.

As far as the Articles of Confederation...it was the precursor to the constitution.  It was an agreement among sovereign states to band together for the common good.  And so the founders fled a country looking for less govt control and less taxation.  They succeeded for over 100 years without needing a national income tax to fund the government.  The current income tax system was put in place to pay for WWI.  The fact that there was a market boom and bubble bursting around the time those debts were retired gave a Democratic led govt a reason to establish other ways to spend that revenue: The New Deal.  Once govt spending programs are put in place they continue to grow.  This is what Reagan temporarily reversed...the growth of non-essential national govt spending.





Is it better for people to starve instead or remain unemployed because the private sector is unable or willing to hire them?  People don't feel too good about themselves in bread lines, that's why the new deal came about.

In general I am opposed to govt. programs since the profit motive creates a more efficient system.  But at this point the financial markets are so screwed up that no sane person would try to start a business, and it's clearly in the public interest for the population to be productive.

I see little reason to subsidize children unless it's clear that it's not the fault of the parents that they can't make ends meet. I'd rather that people had the money to spend to buy the services they need from the private sector.

There is a definite danger in public spending distorting proper economic choices.  Government works best when people do the right thing without any government influence. Government should be supportive of creative progress, not of failed institutions.

Offline Lurker

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Is it better for people to starve instead or remain unemployed because the private sector is unable or willing to hire them?  People don't feel too good about themselves in bread lines, that's why the new deal came about.


Those people have no relatives?  Will they really starve to death?  Or will they suck up their entitlement attitude and go earn food/money somewhere?  They might not have felt good about themselves in the bread lines but they didn't starve to death either.  Studies have shown that it wasn't the New Deal that pulled the country out of recession but the start of WWII and the buildup of the manufacturing sector.

If the govt wasn't sucking 50% or more from each worker (Social Sec 15%  Fed income tax 20-25%  state income tax 5% not to mention property taxes, sales taxes, govt fees, etc) then think how much more disposable income the consumer...who drives the economy...would have to spend.

You can't have it both ways rick.  Either the govt gets into socialism supporting an ever growing segment of the population or the govt lets the market place and social network (friends, family, church) be the safety net.  The social support was started by FDR, expanded by LBJ and now is being expanded even further by BHO.  AZNd with each expansion more & more people are made to feel that they are entitled to be supported by the govt.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline westkoast

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Is it better for people to starve instead or remain unemployed because the private sector is unable or willing to hire them?  People don't feel too good about themselves in bread lines, that's why the new deal came about.


Those people have no relatives?  Will they really starve to death?  Or will they suck up their entitlement attitude and go earn food/money somewhere?  They might not have felt good about themselves in the bread lines but they didn't starve to death either.  Studies have shown that it wasn't the New Deal that pulled the country out of recession but the start of WWII and the buildup of the manufacturing sector.

If the govt wasn't sucking 50% or more from each worker (Social Sec 15%  Fed income tax 20-25%  state income tax 5% not to mention property taxes, sales taxes, govt fees, etc) then think how much more disposable income the consumer...who drives the economy...would have to spend.

You can't have it both ways rick.  Either the govt gets into socialism supporting an ever growing segment of the population or the govt lets the market place and social network (friends, family, church) be the safety net.  The social support was started by FDR, expanded by LBJ and now is being expanded even further by BHO.  AZNd with each expansion more & more people are made to feel that they are entitled to be supported by the govt.

Are you really going the route of the New Deal did not work and did not benefit this country?  I've heard the Republican spokesholes say this a lot over the last few days.

Btw, the days of war pumping back up an economy is long gone.
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