Gerald Wallace injury update?

[westkoast]

Bynum was punished accordingly for "man slaughter" and not for "murder".

WOW,

Bynum wasn't punished for "manslaughter".  Bynum WASN'T punished!

Really?  He got hit by the league.  A flagrant foul carries a fine up to but not to exceed 35,000.

[Skandery]

A flagrant foul carries a fine up to but not to exceed 35,000.

The slap on the wrist might have hurt more.

[ziggy]

The game was flowing like normal so it's not just as simple as saying "he planned to do that."  You can't tell me you've never seen a slasher jump into the middle of traffic and get nailed by a big man before?

I think your failing to see my point.  In the analogy, its the same "Action", but a different "Consequence".  I'm not saying Bynum planned to puncture Wallace' lung.  No.  I'm saying Bynum commited a flagrant action (something you agree with) . . . flagrant defined as unnecessary, Bynum was TOO LATE to perform a legitimate basketball play, but I digress . . . and that flagrant action resulted in a multi-day hospital stay and a punctured lung.  It MIGHT have resulted in Wallace' death.  Good thing for Gerald Wallace AND Andrew Bynum it didn't.

You don't like my handgun in a party analogy (btw I used that one b/c I witnessed it firsthand), lets go with pick-up basketball. 
Your teammate gets beat, you're too late to help so you push the offensive player out of the air (lets say its a close heated game where every point counts and both teams want to win bad).  This is the unchanging GIVEN, westkoast. 

Scenario A:  Guy gets up, pissed off at you for the dirty play, but otherwise unscathed.  Words exchanged, foul called, their ball.

Scenario B:  Guy trys to break his fall awkwardly and breaks his Humeres severing a brachial artery.  Ambulance is called and he's rushed away in a gurney as he begins to go into shock from blood loss.

Question:  Do you feel the same way about the situation in both scenario's?  Would other people on the court feel the same way about the incident depending on what happened?  After all, its a man's game, every point counted, and you did the hardnosed play.  You didn't mean to injure him, you just didn't want to give up the easy layup.  Do you understand?

There are rules against flagrant plays to prevent the worst types of injuries from occuring.  What makes Bynum's actions even more dubious is that it was in a meaningless regular season game.  And the law differentiates between the SAME ACTION depending on the ensuing CONSEQUENCE.  If that player your pushed wanted to sue you for Assault and Punitive Damages, he would sure have an easier time convincing the Judge in Scenario B that he would in Scenario A.  Even though, you, Westkoast, performed the SAME ACTION with the same INTENTIONS in both scenario's.     

I am with Skandery here.  You can talk all you want about intent, but you have to consider consequence.  Was it Kermit Washingtons intent to crush Rudy T's face or was it his intent to protect himself from a blind side attack?  Kermit got 60 games for the consequences. 

If you don't consider consequence then it becomes open season for hard fouls where the intent is not to send the guy to the hospital.  Rather than that it becomes much easier to clean up the game and say, "We reserve the right to set punishment commensurate with the outcome, and not just the intent".  That puts the onus on the one who commits the foul; be careful or you could get a massive fine/suspension.

[westkoast]

Intent matters.  That is part of the decision making process on if its a foul or not.  Was it excessive, was it done intentional?  Those are the two questions asked.

[ziggy]

Intent matters.  That is part of the decision making process on if its a foul or not.  Was it excessive, was it done intentional?  Those are the two questions asked.

Didn't say intent doesn't matter.  Intent matters.  Ron Artest got however many games because of his intent.  You intend to hurt someone, then you get hammered, this is fine by me.  Why should intent and excessiveness be the only criteria?  You don't intend to puncture a lung, but it happens anyway, well then why not consider the outcome?

[WayOutWest]

Question:  Do you feel the same way about the situation in both scenario's?  Would other people on the court feel the same way about the incident depending on what happened?  After all, its a man's game, every point counted, and you did the hardnosed play.  You didn't mean to injure him, you just didn't want to give up the easy layup.  Do you understand?

Been there done that, I've had three concusions in my life, two were on the basketball court and I ended up in the hospital for both.  One was a dirty play the other was just a hard foul that resulted in an akward fall.  I felt very different about both fouls because one was part of the game, the other was dirty.  Bynum's foul was part of the game, the foul Perkins commited tonight that got him ejected vs the Pistons was dirty.  MAJOR difference.  If you don't understand that then I don't know what to tell you. 

IMO intent matters a lot, that needs to be taken into consideration because the reverse of your argument is possible.  Someone can try and take someone's head off and not scrach the intended target so he would get a "walk"?

[Skandery]

IMO intent matters a lot, that needs to be taken into consideration because the reverse of your argument is possible.  Someone can try and take someone's head off and not scrach the intended target so he would get a "walk"?

WayOutWest,

I agree!  Intent matters a whole heck of a lot.  Someone goes out their to take someone's head off, and the other guy walks away injury-free.  You bet I'm STILL for suspending their a$$ 'til the cows come home.  I say consequence should matter just as much intent, not MORE, not LESS.  Just like it matters in some real-life situations I've documented above.

I felt very different about both fouls because one was part of the game, the other was dirty.

I think you should have felt much worst about the dirty play, because intent matters; but so should the consequence.  In Bynum's case he didn't commit a foul that was "part of the game".  Otherwise he wouldn't have been called for a "flagrant" foul.  There is a difference between a HARD foul and a FLAGRANT foul. 

Definition from NBA Rule Book:  A flagrant foul-penalty (2) is unnecessary and excessive contact committed by a player against an opponent. It is an unsportsmanlike act and the offender is ejected immediately.

In this situation, it was impossible for Bynum to commit a legitimate basketball play or a legitimate hard foul because he was way too late in rotation.  He committed an unnecessary and excessive foul that lead to the injury and hospitalization of an opponent.   

[westkoast]

Intent matters.  That is part of the decision making process on if its a foul or not.  Was it excessive, was it done intentional?  Those are the two questions asked.

Didn't say intent doesn't matter.  Intent matters.  Ron Artest got however many games because of his intent.  You intend to hurt someone, then you get hammered, this is fine by me.  Why should intent and excessiveness be the only criteria?  You don't intend to puncture a lung, but it happens anyway, well then why not consider the outcome?

Because freak accidents/injuries should not be the basis for suspending players in this league.  Wallace cracking a rib is a freak accident/injury IMO.  Like I said before a lot of players get hit like they when they jump into others players in traffic.  I've seen slashers do that a few million times since I've watched basketball and I've only see one guy puncture a lung.  If you review what happens to a player after every foul you are asking for it.

If Manu does his normal floppyness around the rim, get nailed, falls, and then after the game they determine he hurt his ankle again because of it do you now go back to suspend that player?

When Kobe Bryant got fouled above the 3 real hard and it messed up his shoulder 4 seasons ago (I believe) do you go back to suspend that player even though they were trying to keep him from getting the shot off as usual?  I considered that a freak accident/injury and I don't think it warranted a suspension.

I didn't agree when the league suspended Bruce Bowen because after the fact Stu Jackson found out his butt buddy Ray Allen hurt his ankle.

Not saying you should never go back and review a play to dish out some punishment.  I am just saying you can't do it every time and certainly have to consider if it was a freak injury/accident.

[WayOutWest]

Too bad they didn't suspend Bynum for a couple of games, he got hurt again.  Did not look good but hopefully it's just a hyperextension but he's definately going to miss some time.

[westkoast]

Too bad they didn't suspend Bynum for a couple of games, he got hurt again.  Did not look good but hopefully it's just a hyperextension but he's definately going to miss some time.

MRI was negative but he'll be out 2 weeks at least.

[Lurker]

Too bad they didn't suspend Bynum for a couple of games, he got hurt again.  Did not look good but hopefully it's just a hyperextension but he's definately going to miss some time.

MRI was negative but he'll be out 2 weeks at least.

Ahhh, the poor leetle Lakers will be reduced to their WC champions team.  I feel so bad for them.   


Tough break for the "A Train".      He really seemed to start to understand his role on the team.  And was playing more consistently from what I have read.

[Reality]

Was that *karma* or what?  Except Gerald Wallace is out what, 3 months?
Or was Kobe getting jealous of Bynums 42/15 etc thus stealing some of Kobes spotlight and hence rolled Byns knee?

Wallace cracking a rib is a freak accident/injury IMO.
Like I said before a lot of players get hit like they when they jump into others players in traffic.  

Skandery, enjoy.  ^^

[westkoast]

Too bad they didn't suspend Bynum for a couple of games, he got hurt again.  Did not look good but hopefully it's just a hyperextension but he's definately going to miss some time.

MRI was negative but he'll be out 2 weeks at least.

Ahhh, the poor leetle Lakers will be reduced to their WC champions team.  I feel so bad for them.   


Tough break for the "A Train".      He really seemed to start to understand his role on the team.  And was playing more consistently from what I have read.

He was starting to hit a groove which is why I am a bit pissed about the injury but what can you do?  It's one of those weird freak accidents that happens and you can do nothing to prevent.

His attitude is starting to give me a headache though.  He had a comment after Friday's game a long the lines of "I think we should do this..." when talking about how to run the offense.  His tone just made my blood boil a bit because this is exactly what Rick Fox and others were saying last month when I told you guys about the whole "A-Train" thing.  It's not his place to make comments like this nor is it his decision.  Obviously going into the post when you have Gasol and Bynum is where you want to go and that's exactly what the coaching staff says.  I don't think he should make it sound like the coaching staff is not saying that and he is the leader on this squad.  Clearly he is not.

[westkoast]

Was that *karma* or what?  Except Gerald Wallace is out what, 3 months?
Or was Kobe getting jealous of Bynums 42/15 etc thus stealing some of Kobes spotlight and hence rolled Byns knee?

Wallace cracking a rib is a freak accident/injury IMO.
Like I said before a lot of players get hit like they when they jump into others players in traffic.  

Skandery, enjoy.  ^^

STFU you didn't watch the game and don't try to twist around my last quote.  Plenty of guys get hit on the head, shoulders, chest, and legs when jumping into traffic to attack the rim.

Honestly I wish we could ban you like Jem got banned.  Jem may have pissed people off but he's yet to get multiple people to stop posting on the board due to stupidity.

[Reality]

Was that *karma* or what?  Except Gerald Wallace is out what, 3 months?
Or was Kobe getting jealous of Bynums 42/15 etc thus stealing some of Kobes spotlight and hence rolled Byns knee?

Wallace cracking a rib is a freak accident/injury IMO.
Like I said before a lot of players get hit like they when they jump into others players in traffic.  

Skandery, enjoy.  ^^

STFU you didn't watch the game and don't try to twist around my last quote.  Plenty of guys get hit on the head, shoulders, chest, and legs when jumping into traffic to attack the rim.
1.  Oh but i did watch the game, and the replays were even better.  And posting your exact quote has your panties in a bunch?  Awwwww.
Skandery doesn't work for Reality Inc, but I think he's handling you and this topic just fine.  I'll let him continue.  Should i pay him a consulting fee?

2.  Awwwww again.  If only you and your Nanny ran this board.

Honestly I wish we could ban you like Jem got banned.  Jem may have pissed people off but he's yet to get multiple people to stop posting on the board due to stupidity.