Author Topic: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach  (Read 2702 times)

Offline ziggy

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JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« on: January 25, 2009, 12:17:54 PM »
Twolves have made a real turnaround since McHale became head coach.  They were 4-15 under Wittman, but are now 10-12 under McHale.  Last 20 or so games Kevin Love is averaging nearly 10 and 10.  Randy Foye seems to be coming into his own, Al Jefferson is playing solid.  Looks like McHale needs to become HC and let someone else be the GM.
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Offline Reality

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 12:55:16 PM »
Lot of McHale hate out there.

Didn't he also improve them the year he did the interim finish?

Offline jn

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 01:06:26 AM »
Let's go bad news first.   If you look at who they have beaten, only a road win against Phoenix really counts as high quality win.  Even when they beat New Orleans the other night it occured at home and with David West and Tyson Chandler out. 

In addition, given how bad some of these guys have looked one has to wonder if this is a blip.  One could just as easily see this team peak out as a mediocrity unable to get a difference maker in the draft or in free agency.   Also it's hard to imagine McHale continuing as coach.  I don't trust McHale and Taylor to make the right choice once he is gone. 

On the upside it is truly remarkable to see a hot streak from a team that, earlier in the year, was being discussed in the same breath as the mid 80s Clippers and early 70's Sixers as the worst team in the history or the NBA. 

I can hardly describe the change in Foye.  Earlier this year I was just DYING watching him get beat by Brandon Roy, whom the Wolves traded to get Foye and cash.  I was describing him as a disaster who would looked like he would be in Europe in a couple years.  Right now he is playing borderline All Star ball.  Nowhere is it more apparent that Randy Wittman was a horrific coach who sucked the confidence out of his players. 

Jefferson is back from the precipice of not caring.  Although Wittman had to allow him a longer leash  it was still obvious that he was incredibly unhappy.  He wasn't out and out dogging it, but he wasn't playing with the effort he is now. 

Love is a fine rebounder.  For a 20 year old he understands postitioning amazingly well.   Plus his much touted outlet passing ability is starting to come into play.

Amazingly, Telfair is looking alright too.  I have been fascinated watching this guy since his arrival.  He was clearly a guy who new that he was close to being out of the league and had move past all the hype and ego boosting he had received from those around him growing up.  With his ego properly deflated he at least now tries to play smart, unselfish ball.  He's still got a lot of work to do but at least the effort is there and we aren't paying him a ton.

Lastly, there is the remarkable case of Rodney Carney.  I can't believe what I'm seeing from this guy!  I knew he had some raw athletic ability but he is an absolute rocket from end to end and can really get up.  Against New Orleans he made and absolutely mind boggling play.  He picked up a loose ball on D at the 3 point line, blew past two defenders who had a 10 ft head start on him, took off from the edge of the lane, about 10 ft out and nearly hit his head on the rim on the dunk!!  It was an Olympic quality long jump that just happened to take place in a basketball game.  Plus he has been hitting his threes.  I didn't think he could shoot from more than 15 ft.  Best of all, he takes GOOD shots which means the talented but idiotic Rashard McCants is now on the bench.   For that reason alone I say thank you, Rodney Carney, thank you!

So there you have it.  I'm very please about a lot of things.  Still, as I mentioned above I really have to wonder how long all this can last.  I'm sure some of these guys have turned the corner from absolute disaster but I wonder how long guys with weak track records like Telfair and Carney can maintain, plus Love will undoubtedly hit the rookie wall.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 01:10:06 AM by jn »
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Offline westkoast

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 10:53:45 AM »
If McHale has success why wouldn't he continue on to be the coach for at least a few more seasons?  Age/Health? 
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 04:02:11 PM »

.....Lastly, there is the remarkable case of Rodney Carney.  I can't believe what I'm seeing from this guy!  I knew he had some raw athletic ability but he is an absolute rocket from end to end and can really get up.  Against New Orleans he made and absolutely mind boggling play.  He picked up a loose ball on D at the 3 point line, blew past two defenders who had a 10 ft head start on him, took off from the edge of the lane, about 10 ft out and nearly hit his head on the rim on the dunk!!  It was an Olympic quality long jump that just happened to take place in a basketball game.  Plus he has been hitting his threes.  I didn't think he could shoot from more than 15 ft.  Best of all, he takes GOOD shots which means the talented but idiotic Rashard McCants is now on the bench.   For that reason alone I say thank you, Rodney Carney, thank you!

So there you have it.  I'm very please about a lot of things.  Still, as I mentioned above I really have to wonder how long all this can last.  I'm sure some of these guys have turned the corner from absolute disaster but I wonder how long guys with weak track records like Telfair and Carney can maintain, plus Love will undoubtedly hit the rookie wall.

I noticed Mn. rising in the standings, and while some of it can  be explained by their opponents, they're still winning!  I don't know about the others, but Rodney Carney never got a shot in Phila. and was expendable because of the depth the Sixers had with Iguodala and Young.  I was sad to see him go, because he was one of the sparks that got the bench going.  Now that Carney is getting time, he has the chance to develop into a decent NBA player. He definitely has the physical skills.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 05:03:18 PM »
Rodney's as fast down the floor and as quick off his feet as you'll see.  His biggest problems are that he had very little midrange game, and virtually nothing off the dribble.  But he's got some definite upside.

Offline jn

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 12:22:03 PM »
dabods I hadn't thought about it but your right, he doesn't have much midrange or a great handle.  The second part is actually fine at this point because part of the problem with McCants was he dribbled way, way too much.  The Wolves offense ends up being much smoother with Carney in there.   

As for McHale coaching he has never expressed any interest, even when he came on board back in the mid 90's. 
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Offline ziggy

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 01:15:30 PM »

Love is a fine rebounder.  For a 20 year old he understands postitioning amazingly well.   Plus his much touted outlet passing ability is starting to come into play.


http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-38-89/Pop-Quiz--Rookies-Can-Rebound.html

Pop Quiz: Rookies Can Rebound

January 27, 2009 12:15 PM

OK, so if you take:

    * Every rookie who has ever played in the NBA since 1946 ...
    * Weed out everyone who played less than twenty minutes per game ...
    * And sort them by who gets the highest percentage of total rebounds while on the court ...

You'll find that two current rookies are in the top ten all time. Which is really something.

One of them is Greg Oden, who is ninth at the moment. He's ahead of people like Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson. Not bad. Not bad at all.

Another 2008-2009 rookie, however, is currently third all time. By this measure he's ahead of Shaquille O'Neal, Charles Oakley, Buck Williams, and Bill Walton (trailing only Clifford Ray and Larry Smith, who were three years older in their rookie years than the buy I'm talking about).

This rookie is also better known for doing something besides rebounding.

But TrueHoop reader Larry has pointed out, and Basketball-Reference.com confirms, this player is certainly showing that he's a special rebounder.

So ... who is he?

Answer after the jump.

Kevin Love of the Minnesota Timberwolves. Here's the evidence. Kevin Love

His total rebounding percentage is greater than his age, which just about never happens. He's only 20, but he grabs 21.3 percent of the rebounds while he's on the court.

He's also smaller and less athletic than a lot of the players he's competing against for those loose balls. And he's best known as a passer (and trick-shot artist).

How does he do it?

There are probably a lot of contributing factors. Maybe he reads angles better than many. Maybe he is well-schooled in the dark arts of rebound positioning. Certainly he has good hands, and can possess a high percentage of the balls he touches.

But I can tell you this: If you train with David Thorpe at the Pro Training Center at IMG, and tell him you want to grab more rebounds, the first thing he will do is try to get you to see that you have more rebounding opportunities than you think you do. This has nothing to do with your size, and everything to do with your mental approach to rebounding.

Thorpe's thought is that the best way for most players to get more balls is to get it in their heads that they can go and get balls that fall out of their area.

Think about it this way. If you're shooting alone in a gym, you can run down rebounds all over the floor. It's normal. You can cover a lot of ground!

But in games, a lot of players have a certain mental block. All those players in the way! Most only really fight for balls that come to their area. If you're on the left block, are you going to run all the way to the right elbow to grab a ball coming off the rim?

For most players, the answer is no.

But for rebound maniacs like Kevin Love, the answer is yes.

No matter where he starts out, he'll compete for just about every ball that comes off that rim. It's a mentality.

(And, incidentally, this reality is why rebounding statistics from college are often more useful than you'd think in the NBA. John Hollinger can explain this better than I can, but my understanding is that many good college rebounders, who were a bit undersized, have historically been projected to be unable to rebound well against the NBA's bigger competition. Yet several of them have proven otherwise. What do they have in common? They are players who apply their rebounding skills more times per game than other players. If you're trying to get them all the time, you'll get a lot of them.)

Love is listed at 6-10 and 260. And he has been dinged by scouts for his lack of athleticism. But his rookie season is showing that he can sure grab some rebounds!

UPDATE:  A look at team's overall rebounding rates while different players are on the floor. Oden and Love still shine. Love makes the single biggest difference of any player in the league, with his team improving more than nine percent grabbing offensive rebounds while he's on the floor. (This measure weeds out players who are stealing rebounds from teammates.)

    While there is no doubt that Love has the mental makeup to go get rebounds, I actually think your quote about the "dark arts" of rebounding is closer to what is happening with his game.

    If you pay attention to him on the boards, he is less concerned with jumping high as he is about preventing his man from jumping to the ball; or, at the very least, jumping to the highest point that he himself needs to get to in order to bring down the goods.

    His bag of dark arts tricks is filled to the brim with the type of moves rec players see at the Y from the old guy who likes to make believe that nobody knows he played D1 ball back in the 70s. From pretending that his man has him anchored to the floor (which draws fouls) to the one arm in the air trick (in which he overplays the fact that his arm is being held down; also a foul magnet move) to the slight hip bump to always keeping his hands in the air when the ball comes off the rim, the guy is well, well versed in the dark arts of rebounding.

    He also has the added benefit of playing next to a guy who consistently draws double teams while shooting close to the bucket. The Wolves are grabbing between 30-40% of their own misses in recent games. With Jefferson upping his game, Love is often presented with even less resistance on his way to the offensive glass. If you add in his clearly superior work ethic and motor, and if you factor in his double black belt in rebounding, there is actually some room to believe that he can improve on the offensive glass, as more attention is being paid to Foye and Jefferson than at any other time during the season.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 02:11:55 PM »
OK, so if you take:

    * Every rookie who has ever played in the NBA since 1946 ...
    * Weed out everyone who played less than twenty minutes per game ...
    * And sort them by who gets the highest percentage of total rebounds while on the court ...

One of them is Greg Oden, who is ninth at the moment. He's ahead of people like Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson. Not bad. Not bad at all.

So is Oden really averaging over 20 minutes per game? 
How does he look? 
Does he look like he's getting into shape?
Is he getting some of his explosiveness back?

Last time I saw him I was not impressed because he was still lacking most of the athleticism he had in college.  I don't expect Oden to have a polished game but I'm hoping some of his "hops" comes back soon.  I really want to gauge the guy fairly but right now he's either not healed or not as good as the hype.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 03:11:00 PM »
OK, so if you take:

    * Every rookie who has ever played in the NBA since 1946 ...
    * Weed out everyone who played less than twenty minutes per game ...
    * And sort them by who gets the highest percentage of total rebounds while on the court ...

One of them is Greg Oden, who is ninth at the moment. He's ahead of people like Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson. Not bad. Not bad at all.

So is Oden really averaging over 20 minutes per game? 
How does he look? 
Does he look like he's getting into shape?
Is he getting some of his explosiveness back?

Last time I saw him I was not impressed because he was still lacking most of the athleticism he had in college.  I don't expect Oden to have a polished game but I'm hoping some of his "hops" comes back soon.  I really want to gauge the guy fairly but right now he's either not healed or not as good as the hype.

The difference between where he was at the beginning of the year and today is enormous.  I made the comment that he was like Shaq, in the sense that he was so huge.  He has lost a ton of weight/mass, much more athletic than the beginning of the year, moving his feet far better.  His shooting has steadily improved.  In the beginning he was nothing more than a dunker, missed EVERYTHING outside of 3 feet.  Not any longer.  Still way to many fouls, but he is a big time rebounder no doubt.  His athleticism is returning, which is about when I figured it would, about 18 months after the surgery.

In the games where he got at least 20 minutes (wasn't hurt or in major foul trouble) he is averaging
28.7 min
60.5% FG%
68.4% FT%
9.6 rebounds
12.3 points
1.2 Block
1.9 TO
3.9 PF
In total he has 13 double doubles
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline westkoast

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 03:12:40 PM »
Hmm I never really thought about the 'player mental block' when it comes to rebound.  My mentality is the same way as far as only going after rebounds in my area.  Ill have to try it out tonight when I play some pick up ball.  'Koast may mess around and get a triple double!
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Offline Lurker

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 03:45:01 PM »
Hmm I never really thought about the 'player mental block' when it comes to rebound.  My mentality is the same way as far as only going after rebounds in my area.  Ill have to try it out tonight when I play some pick up ball.  'Koast may mess around and get a triple double!

That was one of the things they said about Rodman...he believed that every ball coming off the rim was his.  He also approached every shot as if it was going to come off the rim.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: JN- TWolves and McHale as a coach
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2009, 09:08:19 PM »
It worked.  I ran down more shots and snuck around people just waiting for the ball to come to them thinking no one else would try for it.

Back to the Wolves though, are they doing what Portland did last year? 
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