Author Topic: The WC and the playoffs  (Read 4148 times)

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 11:25:52 PM »
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I didn't see anyone posting drivel like that around here.

Oh, I see, so if no one said it here it hasn't been said...got it.


That is pretty much it, we are the greatest NBA posters on the net, GM have made their career lurking on these boards, a few coaches as well.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2008, 01:29:58 PM »
It is amazing how much things have changed in the last 10 days, since W.O.W. started this thread.

Memphis won 4 of 5, with wins over #4 in the West, #6 in the East and #8 in the East.

Clippers (after adding Randolph) are about .500,  have won 3 of their last 4, beating Portland, and Houston and losing to Chicago.

Phoenix added Jason Richardson and are 2-1 beating losing to Portland.

The East now only has 5 teams with a better than .500 record.  When is the last time a team in the East went out and did a guttsy, role the dice and go for it deal???

Maybe you could say Boston for Garnett, beyond that????  Detroit getting rid of Billups for AI?  No way that was a deal to free up cap space.  NY trading Randolph?  All about cap space.

Dallas went for it with Kidd,
Phoenix with Shaq and Jason Richardson,
Denver went with the big gamble and went all in getting rid of AI and going with Billups,
The Clipps went for it with Zach,
Memphis with OJ Mayo,
Minny took a big gamble in the same deal,
Portland traded away its highest scorer and rebounder for 2 years of Steve Francis, James Jones, and a #1 pick (Rudy Fernandez), so they can play Aldridge.
Houston goes out and gets Artest,
Lakers get Gasol, etc etc etc.

Some of these are good some are bad, but at least teams in the West are not afraid to go for it.

The West is better because the teams are better run, and because they are not afraid to take a chance and go for it.  The East is all about getting cap space 2 years out, and has been that way for a number of years.
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2008, 01:32:37 PM »
I'm not sure I'd call all these moves gutsy

and none of these gutsy moves have yet translated into a playoff improvement for any of these team.



Offline westkoast

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2008, 01:37:35 PM »
I'm not sure I'd call all these moves gutsy

and none of these gutsy moves have yet translated into a playoff improvement for any of these team.




Kidd and Shaq no....Gasol yes.

Portland hasn't made the playoffs yet, Houston/Artest have no played a full season together, and OJ Mayo is shaping up to be a heck of a player so give him some time.

Ziggy is right.  When is the last time a real gutsy trade or a big time trade was made by an EC team?  Aside from Garnett I can only think of the Shaq trade to send him to Miami.
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »
Many of these moves aren't exactly what I'd call 'gutsy' as they are no brainers...

I think it's the use of the word 'gutsy' that I have a problem with - just because you obtained a big name doesn't mean you are gutsy - it might just mean your dumb - or have other motivations (memphis wanted to save a lot of money, portland was trying to trade zach as the last remnant of an era that almost cost Portland their entire fanbase, Oj Mayo for Kevin love was kevin mchale again being a dumbass)

I also think that you don't have to make trades to be 'gutsy' - if the definition of gutsy is splashy

Elton Brand
Rashard Lewis
Ben Wallace

all 'gutsy' free agent signings


« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 01:53:12 PM by jemagee »

Offline westkoast

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2008, 04:16:54 PM »
Many of these moves aren't exactly what I'd call 'gutsy' as they are no brainers...

I think it's the use of the word 'gutsy' that I have a problem with - just because you obtained a big name doesn't mean you are gutsy - it might just mean your dumb - or have other motivations (memphis wanted to save a lot of money, portland was trying to trade zach as the last remnant of an era that almost cost Portland their entire fanbase, Oj Mayo for Kevin love was kevin mchale again being a dumbass)

I also think that you don't have to make trades to be 'gutsy' - if the definition of gutsy is splashy

Elton Brand
Rashard Lewis
Ben Wallace

all 'gutsy' free agent signings




I think what he means by gutsy trades/signings is that they really shake the team up quite a bit.   Brand's signing didn't completely shake the team up like I thought it would but it was a good/no brainer signing.  Gasol really shook the Lakers squad up.  Shaq completely changed the make up of PHX (for the worse).

Ben Wallace didn't shake the Bulls up, in fact it seemed as if he helped them sink.
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 05:07:34 PM »
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Ben Wallace didn't shake the Bulls up, in fact it seemed as if he helped them sink.

You're looking after the fact though - Shaq and Kidd didn't help phoenix dallas much after the fact either...hindsight is 20/20

Offline westkoast

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 05:14:08 PM »
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Ben Wallace didn't shake the Bulls up, in fact it seemed as if he helped them sink.

You're looking after the fact though - Shaq and Kidd didn't help phoenix dallas much after the fact either...hindsight is 20/20

Either way you look at it they were MAJOR trades to try to do something.

Ben Wallace just isn't the type of player, to me, who would shake up a team major.  He has too limited of a game IMO.
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2008, 05:25:37 PM »
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Ben Wallace just isn't the type of player, to me, who would shake up a team major.  He has too limited of a game IMO.

At the time of the signing Wallace was one of the most feared defensive presences in the league.
Elton Brand is considered (before his injury) one of the best PF in the league
and Rashard lewis though playing out of position was a major 'shake up' in Orlando

I just don't get the selectiveness - maybe you don't need to make franchise altering gutsy moves to be better.

The Cavs got mo williams - and who knows why but that seems to have made them much better...

Shaq and Kidd at the time were shadows of their former selves existing more on what they used to be then what they could actually contribute...




Offline westkoast

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 05:34:04 PM »
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Ben Wallace just isn't the type of player, to me, who would shake up a team major.  He has too limited of a game IMO.

At the time of the signing Wallace was one of the most feared defensive presences in the league.
Elton Brand is considered (before his injury) one of the best PF in the league
and Rashard lewis though playing out of position was a major 'shake up' in Orlando

I just don't get the selectiveness - maybe you don't need to make franchise altering gutsy moves to be better.

The Cavs got mo williams - and who knows why but that seems to have made them much better...

Shaq and Kidd at the time were shadows of their former selves existing more on what they used to be then what they could actually contribute...





Why do you keep bringing up Elton Brand when we've pretty much agreed on the move?
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 05:38:26 PM »
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Ben Wallace just isn't the type of player, to me, who would shake up a team major.  He has too limited of a game IMO.

not sure - could just be the holiday spirit - does strange things to the hebes

Offline westkoast

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 05:43:19 PM »
Philly made a major move to get an excellent player.  The rest of the East seems to just be conceding to the Celtics.  No one has really tried to load up to match them.  I guess someone might say 'Miami' but I don't know.  Getting Beasley and Marion were big.
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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 05:51:55 PM »
Philly made a major move to get an excellent player.  The rest of the East seems to just be conceding to the Celtics.  No one has really tried to load up to match them.  I guess someone might say 'Miami' but I don't know.  Getting Beasley and Marion were big.

I think getting marion was about getting out from under shaq and his ego (and contract) more than anything else - marion will probably not last the season in Miami.

See - the cavs made a move - but they didn't need to make a major move - they added mo williams and while not major it seems to have had a very positive impact (but then again, it might be like blaming elton brand for the sixers stinking, mo might have nothing to do with why the cavs are better this year, could be varejao being there from day one and healthy or lebron just getting better)...many of those 'gutsy' moves listed above were splashy but bad, especially the big name ones...

And it's being ignored - but tj ford / jermaine o'neal - jermaine has as much left in his tank as shaq or jkidd (not much) but it was 'gutsy' if making a questionable move for a big name who isn't that good any more is considered gutsy

I'm not sure where the hell the bucks/nets move factors in but if we're giving 'memphis/minnesota' gutsy....then why not

It just seems like the original premise was willing to make anything gutsy in the west but ignore the east...

Offline ziggy

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2008, 06:13:33 PM »
Many of these moves aren't exactly what I'd call 'gutsy' as they are no brainers...

I think it's the use of the word 'gutsy' that I have a problem with - just because you obtained a big name doesn't mean you are gutsy - it might just mean your dumb - or have other motivations (memphis wanted to save a lot of money, portland was trying to trade zach as the last remnant of an era that almost cost Portland their entire fanbase, Oj Mayo for Kevin love was kevin mchale again being a dumbass)

I also think that you don't have to make trades to be 'gutsy' - if the definition of gutsy is splashy

Elton Brand
Rashard Lewis
Ben Wallace

all 'gutsy' free agent signings

Subtlely is not one of your strong-suits is it?

The definition of gutsy, "having a great deal of nerve".
Place each deal in context, and recognize that I am not saying every deal is a good deal.

Quote from: ziggy  date=1229712629
Some of these are good some are bad, but at least teams in the West are not afraid to go for it.

I am also saying, that in general the West teams are better managed.

Quote from: ziggy  date=1229712629
The West is better because the teams are better run

Portland  -  They sucked (31 wins) and they trade their #1 scorer and #1 rebounder, for a player making $14 million a year who they immediately buyout, and a trade exception they use to get a journeyman, and a Euro who won't come for a year.  That took a great deal of nerve.  The fact that Portland hasn't made the playoffs yet is not the point.  They sucked, they went for it, got little in return immediately and improved by 10 games.  Portland could have traded Zach for somebody similar, another "splashy Big Name" and continued to suck.

Prior to that they were run by an Eastern Conference GM in John Nash.  He takes an EC approach, makes a splashy, but not gutsy pick of Sebastian Telfair.  Next year he has the 3rd pick, with the opportunity to draft Chris Paul or Deron Williams, and what does he do?  He decides to CYA on Telfair, trades DOWN to draft a HS player who was generally considered a late lottery to #20 pick in Martell Webster.

Lakers  -  They got Gasol because they are better managed.  I bopped the Lakers over taking Bynum.  I said there is very little success drafting HS centers.  Well they did their home work, decided that he was worth the risk.  Don't tell me that taking Bynum was not a gutsy move.

Suns  -  They were not going to win with the roster they had.  Kerr went all in.  Didn't work last year, so he went for it again with JRich.  Maybe it won't work with this group but, once Shaq and Nash leave they still have 2 stars in their prime with cap space to take a run at someone else as a FA, and maybe keep in going for 5 more years.

Houston -  has underachieved with Yao and McGrady.  They go for it with Artest.  Maybe they can get a good 3 year run out of this.  They thought they had a chance a couple of years ago, and swapped Rudy Gay for Shane Battier, to be a glue guy on a championship squad.  Didn't work, but it took a lot of nerve to make that move.

Utah  -  They are drafting 6th in a 4 deep draft, so what do they do?  They figure out how to move into the top 4 and get Deron Williams.  They only moved up 3 spots, but they were willing to give up another first rounder to get the player they wanted.  Last year they take a chance and take on salary and add Kyle Korver.  Korver is a role player, but he was the right role player for Utah.  They go from being a .500 team to a conference semi-finalist.

Dallas  -  They believe that they are very close, in a very winnable western conference, so they go all in and take on an aging HOF'er, giving up a young potential star.  Did it work?  Not so far, and I think in the end it was a mistake, but they didn't sit on their thumb.


Now how much nerve does it take to sign Brand, Lewis, or Wallace?  Not an ounce.  You have cap space, and you use it on the best available talent you can.

I will give Ainge credit, he was hoping for Oden, didn't get him so he said screw it, I am going all in and it got him a title.  I will give Miami credit for trading for Shaq.  He was nearing the end, and they went for it and got a ring.

When was the last time Atlanta did something gutsy?  They had a chance and they drafted Marvin Williams instead of Chris Paul, they drafted Shelden Williams instead of Brandon Roy, or Rudy Gay.  They went with the boring big guy every time.

How about the Wizards?  What was their last gutsy move?  Signing Arenas this summer?  How much nerve did that take.

The Bobcats?  They traded their #1 pick for JRich, and then lost there never a year later a sold him for 2 role players.

The Bulls?  They had the inside track on Gasol, and wouldn't do it, because they would have to give up Deng and Hinrich.  They traded Aldridge for Ty Thomas and Victor Khryapa.

Pacers?  They traded their best big man for a PG, to get cap space in a couple of years.

Knicks under Isiah?  Well they really made no gutsy moves, and they were horribly managed.  Under Donnie Walsh?  I will give him and Dantoni credit, at least they are taking a shot at it.  That team now sees light at the end of tunnel.

Cav's?  OK maybe the trade they did last year bringing in Ben Wallace, and Wally could qualify, but if so just barely.

Nets?  5 or 6 years ago they went for it, and got into the finals twice.  Since then they have been playing out the string.

Bucks?  are they still a franchise?

Philly?  Trading AI for Andre Miller and Joe Smith.  I understand their reason, but this was not a gutsy move designed to change the franchise.

A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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jemagee

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Re: The WC and the playoffs
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2008, 06:22:55 PM »
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Philly?  Trading AI for Andre Miller and Joe Smith.  I understand their reason, but this was not a gutsy move designed to change the franchise.

That was a horrible trade...but you seemed to be picking and choosing to make the west seem 'better' because it's gutsy - regardless of whether it was a smart or dumb move.

There are dumb run franchises in both conferences - there are well run franchises in both conferences - yes the spurs are great and all - but if they hadn't gotten duncan i don't think they get the titles and it's not 'smarts' that got them duncan - it's dumb luck - a little bit of luck helps

Before the draft of 2007 everyone thought that danny ainge was a god awful GM who couldn't find his big toe with a map and a piece of string connected to it - now Dann AInge is considered a shrewd GM.

Yes the Iverson trade was a bad trade - yes a better trade was offered (by uber GM Danny AInge that would have prevented them from getting Garnett) for Iverson that King turned down - but Billy King also doesn't have a job anymore...there are terrible run franchises in both conferences, but you seemed impressed by GMs who do something for the sake of doing something - i personally find that asinine - the suns trade for shaq was asinine imo, at the time, it made them worse and less competitive in their conference.

I'm not sure that making a stupid gutsy move means that a conference has a better GM.

Two of those (stupid) gutsy moves were western GMs trading with the eastern conference.

If the move to get J Kidd was gutsy then the move to get the better long term bet in Devin Harris was just as gutsy.

You seem to want to be more impressed by the names in the trade then the results of the trade - and that's your perogative - but trades that make a team better in my eyes are hella more impressive than trading for a fat overweight 300+ on his way down center that totally screws over your franchise and makes your team worse from the moment he's obtained