Grace period for the Phillies is over

[bebopdeluxe]

Ibanez...3 years/$30m...

Meh.

I would have rather seen them go balls-out for Lowe...but better this than some half-azzed platoon out there.  I guess they just got tired of those yearly two month stretches where Burrell couldn't hit jack.  Certainly no upgrade in LF defensively, but the guy is durable and was pretty productive in a pitchers ballpark.

[jemagee]

Good joke - but the mets have made moves to plug holes they had so far this season - the phillies have made moves to - um - well they swapped back up catcher for back up catcher - and that made a lot of sense

[jemagee]

Ibanez...3 years/$30m...

Meh.

I would have rather seen them go balls-out for Lowe...but better this than some half-azzed platoon out there.  I guess they just got tired of those yearly two month stretches where Burrell couldn't hit jack.  Certainly no upgrade in LF defensively, but the guy is durable and was pretty productive in a pitchers ballpark.

Is that better than one year 16 million for burrell (keep in mind that ibanez is 4 years older, left handed hitter and his arm sucks and as much as pat gets grief for moving in the outfield he has a very strong arm)...this is a massive step backwards compared to pat and costs a lot more money...so maybe that arbitration thing - not so good an idea?

Plus - if some team was going to give ibanez 3 years 10 mil per - do you think pat would have accepted arbitration - being that he's better than ibanez?

Enjoy 2008 folks - amaro is going to make sure it never happens again.

Phils had no shot at Lowe - they shouldl look into peavy now that the cubs deal fell apart maybe he'll let that NTC come off

[bebopdeluxe]

While I'm not walking around with a chubby about the deal, to call it a "massive step backward" seems like a bit of an overstatement to me.  Would I have been happier if they had given this money to Burrell?  Yes.  Do I like this more than some of the other options that were being floated out there?  Yes.

[jemagee]

Ibanez is

Four Years older
worse defensively
worse offensively
and a left handed bat added to a left handed heavy lineup already

this IS a big step backwards - but keep towing that company line

[bebopdeluxe]

Whatever, bro.

Speaking for myself, I got tired of those two-months stretches where Burrell had no clue.  The "Fielding Bible" on Bill James' web site cited Burrell as - over the past 3 years - having the worst +/- of all LF's in baseball...over the past 4 years, Ibanez has played 162 games twice (including 2008) and 159 once.  Ibanez has a 15-20 point higher BA on either side of the plate than Burrell does (i.e. he hits LHP better than Burrell hits RHP...and he hits RHP better than Burrell hits LHP).

Man...even after a WS title, your rage towards this franchise knows no bounds.

[jemagee]

Even after reading the Bil James fielding bible you want to talk to me about batting average instead of using OBP or OPS?

Ok then...that makes a lot of sense.

Ibanez arm is a rubber noodle...trust me, you're going to miss pat burrell...and you're ignoring the overweighted batting order to the left hand side is marvelous

[bebopdeluxe]

Look...I freaking AGREE with you - I would rather have Burrell back than have Ibanez.

OK?

I just don't see it as quite the disaster that you do.  Neither guy is good in the OF.  Both are productive hitters.  For me, the fact that Ibanez is a LH hitter is offset by the belief that he doesn't burn half a season having no freaking clue at the plate.

A better option would have been to use the money to bowl-over Lowe, IMO.

A worse option would have been to do some half-azzed platoon with Jenkins/Stairs.

They obviously think that they can get around the issue of having an overloaded LH-hitting lineup - or at least, they think that Ibanez (who hit over .300 last year against lefties, and is a .266 lifetime hitter against lefties) can do well enough to get by.  And while I certainly understand that teams will try to set up their pitching rotation to throw maximum leftage against us, looking at 2008 and guys who started at least 20 games, almost 2/3 of the starters in the NL are righties (23 of 64).  Against the tougher lefties, you can go Utley/Werth (who kills lefties)/Howard 2-3-4...

Again, I'm not in love with the deal...I just think you are overstating it a bit - that's all.  At least they are spending the cash...given the numbers and current market, they could have easily signed Burrell with this $$$...they are choosing to go in a different direction.  We'll just have to see how it works out.

And for dabods - looking at the numbers and the likelihood that we could have signed Burrell with these numbers if they wanted to, it's pretty clear to me that the reason that they didn't offer Burrell arbitration was they simply did not want him back - and they were afraid that had they offered him arbitration that he would have accepted it, and they did not want to pay him $15-16 million for one year.

[jemagee]

Ever read thegoodphight.com?

Go read that, they're smarter than me about this and obviously you seem to think batting average is how you compare players.

[bebopdeluxe]

jem:

It's not just batting average...I know that.  Burrell's OBP, SLG, OPS...a lot of his numbers are better.

Look - for the money the spent on Ibanez, I would have preferred that they would have signed Burrell.  It is clear to me that they simply did not want to.  They were probably tired of the HUGE hot-and-cold swings that the guy would have (he was basically useless from August 1 on last season)...they were tired of having to defensively substitute for him in EVERY GAME they were leading in the 7th inning (not that they won't do it with Ibanez, but they probably won't do it as much).  While neither guy is a gazelle out there, even though Ibanez is 4 years older, they probably expect less deterioration in his legs than from Burrell.  If there is any need to make a trade in a year or two, there would probably be more of a market for Ibanez than Burrell - particularly in the NL (hard to believe, but if reports are correct, the Cubs were actually considering Ibanez as a potential RF candidate).

I've run out of runway on this one.  We'll just have to see if they made the right call...you can say that the Phils are stupid on this one, but based on the current market, you can't say that the Phils are being cheap here, IMO.

[jemagee]

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/12/12/690543/wednesday-without-raul

[tk76-]

if one of the big money teams wants him then Burrell will make a lot more than what the Phils spent.  If none of the 'financially irresponsible" teams want him then he will go for less.

[jemagee]

if one of the big money teams wants him then Burrell will make a lot more than what the Phils spent.  If none of the 'financially irresponsible" teams want him then he will go for less.

Here's the question

If the phillies feel Raul Ibanez is worth 30 million dollars and 3 years (and draft picks I believe) - why isn't pat burrell worth 3 years 30 million dollars OR AT LEAST 1 year 16 milllion (max, which he probably wouldn't have won his arbitration hearing completely)

I understand that certain posters seem to want to spin this like it isn't a collosal boondoggle that the phils participated in - but if ibanez is worth 30 million dollars  why isn't pat burrell worth 30 million dollars - pats better than ibanez - period

[jemagee]

Raul Ibanez will turn 37 during the first year of his new three-year deal with the Phillies and finish it at age 39. He's very similar to the player he's replacing, Pat Burrell. But Ibanez is four years older, is a far worse defensive player and -- outside of a blip in 2008 -- does not hit left-handed pitching. (His OPS against left-handers was .868 in 2008 but was .650 in 2007 and .661 in 2006.)

Keith Law -

[bebopdeluxe]

I would like to see the statistics that support the statement that Ibanez is a "far worse" outfielder than Pat Burrell.

If Burrell is a better player than Ibanez, the market will recognize that and he will get a better deal.

And - for the last time (really) - I would have preferred that the Phils would have given Burrell 3/30...I honestly believe that he would have taken it.  However, it seems pretty clear to me that the Phils wanted Ibanez more than Burrell.  We'll see how it works out.