Author Topic: Robert Horry HOF?  (Read 5391 times)

Offline jn

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 01:50:54 PM »
I agree completely with Ted.

I have to take EXTREME issue with the statement from the article that Hakeem would have zero rings without Horry.  That is some the biggest BS imaginable.  First off, the Rockets second ring was the result of Hakeem playing almost perfect basketball throughout the playoffs.  Second, there were plenty of other players who stepped up for the Rockets in those two championships.   Guys like Elie (who did more of the "little things" than Horry at that time) Cassell, Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith all raised the level of their games. 
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 02:02:15 PM »
Are there any punters in the NFL hall of fame?
  Punters don't win playoff games.

Do FG kickers make the HOF?  Those guys win more games than anyone.

Only one, Jan Stenerud has made the hall.

I thought George Blanda was in the hall also.

All I did was go to Pro-football-reference.com, clicked on the hall of fame, and sorted by position, and Stenerud was the only kicker who came up.  George Blanda was identified as a QB.  Presently he is 48th all-time in yard passing, but at the time of his retirement he was #10 all time, so identifying him as a QB is appropriate.

I double checked also...and knew that Blanda also played QB.  At one time Blanda held some records for kickers - most extra points in a season and longest FG I believe.  I also found that there is an offensive lineman in the hall that was also a placekicker.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 04:20:44 PM »
Quote
So are you saying that since starting pitchers don't pitch every day they shouldn't be considered in the same light as NBA players, and shouldn't be considered for the hall of fame?  And relief pitchers shouldn't either because they only pitch 1-2 innings every other game?  If so they are role players, and as such they shouldn't be in the hall, which pretty much ends the discussion of Robert Horry

What I am saying is it's like putting a square peg into a round hole.  Since the positions and the games themselves are so much different it's an instance where your analogy does not work.

Starting pitchers are very important in playoff baseball, we all know that.  Ditto for closers.  At the same time a closer who comes in for 2-3 innings a few times in a series (Let's just assume its a long series) doesn't always have the same impact a hitter like Manny Ramirez would who has a chance to change the game 3-4 times a game when he's up to bat or on base.

And the baseball hall of fame is a bit different then the basketball hall of fame.  At least I thought it was.  Baseball seems to focus in on our game here in the states in the form of MLB and the negro leagues.  Whereas basketball seems to be more broad and includes not just multiple leagues but also people from across the ocean.
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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 04:30:43 PM »
The baseball hall of fame is a joke for many reasons - HOFs in general are silly - but to me Robert Horry is seen as much better than he actually was due to a couple memorable playoff moments - maybe if they have a 'display' dedicated to 'big moment' guys he can get some play, along with steve kerr, but come on, it shouldn't be about 'moments', it should be about careers, the entirety of their career, and the teams they played on, i mean if a great player plays on a crap team and never wins a title, should that count against him?  It seems to matter to certain NFL HOF people.

Offline ziggy

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 07:15:13 PM »
The baseball hall of fame is a joke for many reasons.

Yeah every time I go I just laugh my arse off.  I mean really are they serious?? Do they even have a clue??  I mean look at the Cy Young awards!!! Cliff Lee and Tim Lincecum??????  Morons!!  I mean who does the voting for this stuff, in-bred, ignorant, religious Jesus Freaks or something?!?
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 10:45:26 PM »
-- An NBA player who played from 1977 -- 1992.  Career averages:  19 pts, 4 ast, 3 reb, 51% FG, and 85% FT shooter.  A 6-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 10 of 15 years.  Who am I? 

-- An NBA player who played from 1967 -- 1977.  Career averages:  12 pts, 3 ast, 3 reb, 45% FG, and 84% FT shooter.  A 1-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 8 of 10 years.  Who am I?

Without telling you the name of either player (I'm sure you'll have fun guessing or looking it up), I'll tell you Player 1 IS NOT in the Hall of Fame and Player 2 IS in the Hall of Fame.  And no, Player 2 isn't one of the Boston bums.  It is pretty easy to figure out that stats alone, or championships alone, or anything alone is enough to get someone in the Hall of Fame.  Which is why I think when stats get brought into the equation of Robert Horry, the point is completely missed.  People who yell, "the guy has 7 freakin' championships" and hang the entire argument on that notion completely miss the point. 

Robert Horry was more than 7 points, 5 rebounds, and 2 assists, and he was more than a role player on 7 championships.  Horry was the embodiment of the intangibles.  Something that is intangible, means its hard to define, hard to quantify.  There is no statistical wand to neatly express the effect, its intangible.  Clutch, for instance is intangible, its hard to quantify.  Sure you can crunch some numbers (and 82games.com did) and calculate the percentage of FGs someone makes in the final 60 seconds of  games that are within 5 points and so on and so forth.  When 82games.com did the analysis they came up with Carmelo Anthony being the greatest clutch player in the NBA that year.  Who hear is ready to dawn the title of all-time great clutch player to Carmelo Anthony?  I know I'm not.  So clutch is very hard to define.  Its an intangible quality some people have and some people don't.  This was one the many intangible qualities Horry had.  Was it the most memorable quality?  You betcha!  Your average basketball fan or your average sport enthusiast remembers the Sacramento shot.  They remember the Game 5 against Detroit shot in 2005.  People also remember the infamous--the hip check of Nash into the scoreboard. (say what you will about the play, in many observer's eyes it advanced the Spurs passed the Suns)   

But do they remember the momentum changing 3-pointer in Quarter 2 of Game whatever that pushed a Laker lead to 4 when the other team had cut the lead to 1.  No.  Do they remember non-descript, routine, knock away of Nash's dribble that leads to a Spurs fast break in the 4th quarter as the Suns were trying to grab a crucial playoff game from the Spurs?  No.  How about a momentum changing offensive rebound as Houston improbably fought to keep themselves alive in Game 5 in 1994? No  Horry's career is literally a life-size mosaic of small, timely, plays, in the most crucial of moments that reverbate forevermore in the annals of NBA history as 7 Championship Victories across 2 decades and 3 different teams.

The single late game heroics of Robert Horry are no more significant to his career accomplishments as a singular piece of ceramic is to a grand Carthaginian mosaic.  Sure its what's memorable, but I'd wager many of those games Horry played in wouldn't be within a field goal's worth of victory without the crucial steal he makes in the 1 st quarter, the confidence shattering dunk he stuffs out of nowhere, the demoralizing offensive rebound he snatches from the team fighting for every possession.  Horry simply had an intangible knack for making the plays (any play: the block, the steal, the rebound, the dunk, the 3-pointer, the assist) at crucial times in crucial games.  Blessed with a high basketball IQ, first rate athleticism, and an extremely coordinated 6'9 frame, he consistently came up big almost every single time his team called on him. 

I don't have to take anybody's word for it the importance of Robert Horry to any of those teams.  Not his proponents or his detractors.  I simply look at the facts, every coach he had; from the mediocre Danny Ainge to the motivating Tomjanovich, to the Game Manager Phil Jackson, to the invariable Gregg Popovich made ample and consistent use of Robert Horry in the most crucial of times (playoffs) in the most crucial of moments.  Even at the end of his career with 2 bad knees, a chronic lower back, and both feet in the grave Popovich made sure Horry was there at crucial times of playoff games because no one had the intelligence, the saavy, the ability, and the track record of making the plays that need to be made for any team to succeed.  I, once again, place great emphasis on the fact that it could be ANY play, not just the final one and not just a field goal.  Horry had a knack for making not the steal, the game-changing steal, not the three, the momentum-breaking three, the heart-sinking rebound, etc.  Coaches knew that Playoffs were Horry time which is why his career minutes are 24 mpg during the season and 28 mpg during the playoffs. 

Horry also adapted his game to fit whatever role was most conducive to his team's success.  After one Houston Rockets championship, teams figured out Houston was running a bastardized version of the Lakers old half-court system.  Dump to Kareem, set 4 three point shooters when they double Kareem.  Well let's see, you can't leave Kenny Smith open, you can't leave (Vernon Maxwell/Clyde Drexler) open, you can't leave Mario Elie open, well lets see if their PF can sink a shot.  Horry develops into a 3 point shooter that season improving from 32% to 38% and tripling the amount of makes/game.  When Houston needed a 3-point shooting big man, Horry fit the role to a tee.  Phil Jackson made use of Horry's size and quickness to guard the low-post defensively and hover the perimeter offensively, crashing the offensive boards when any shot went up.  When the Lakers needed the versatility, Horry fit the role to a tee.  The Spurs needed a player to understand the exacting offense, make precision entry passes and defend in transition;  from BOTH forward spots, Horry fit the role to a tee.     

Some go so far as to say Robert Horry is the greatest role player of all time.  I am not sure about that statement especially if one were to label players like Dennis Rodman or Robert Parish as role players.  Some say no role player deserves to be in the hall simply being labeled as such.  I believe the Hall of Fame should represent the exceptional, no matter what the type of accomplishment, so long as the exceptionality bears victory.  After all, in the end, winning is what matters, not scoring titles, or all-NBA selections.  The truth of the matter, Horry is the greatest winner of his generation and his accomplishments' effect on the outcomes withstand objective scrutiny.  When one player succeeds as consistently, over as long a time, and in as many different situations as Robert Horry, should not the common denominator at last be given the due credit.  Not only do the championships, but the intangibles set Horry apart in history.   
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 10:59:03 PM by Skandery »
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2008, 12:25:34 AM »
-- An NBA player who played from 1977 -- 1992.  Career averages:  19 pts, 4 ast, 3 reb, 51% FG, and 85% FT shooter.  A 6-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 10 of 15 years.  Who am I? 

-- An NBA player who played from 1967 -- 1977.  Career averages:  12 pts, 3 ast, 3 reb, 45% FG, and 84% FT shooter.  A 1-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 8 of 10 years.  Who am I?


Ok without looking, just a guess
Adrian Dantley
Earl Monroe

I was wrong on both.  Dantley was just inducted this year, and in the other it was a teammate of Earl the Pearl.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 01:52:21 AM by ziggy »
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2008, 11:52:06 AM »
-- An NBA player who played from 1977 -- 1992.  Career averages:  19 pts, 4 ast, 3 reb, 51% FG, and 85% FT shooter.  A 6-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 10 of 15 years.  Who am I? 

-- An NBA player who played from 1967 -- 1977.  Career averages:  12 pts, 3 ast, 3 reb, 45% FG, and 84% FT shooter.  A 1-time NBA All-Star and his teams made the playoffs 8 of 10 years.  Who am I?

Without telling you the name of either player (I'm sure you'll have fun guessing or looking it up), I'll tell you Player 1 IS NOT in the Hall of Fame and Player 2 IS in the Hall of Fame.  And no, Player 2 isn't one of the Boston bums.  It is pretty easy to figure out that stats alone, or championships alone, or anything alone is enough to get someone in the Hall of Fame.  Which is why I think when stats get brought into the equation of Robert Horry, the point is completely missed.  People who yell, "the guy has 7 freakin' championships" and hang the entire argument on that notion completely miss the point. 

Robert Horry was more than 7 points, 5 rebounds, and 2 assists, and he was more than a role player on 7 championships.  Horry was the embodiment of the intangibles.  Something that is intangible, means its hard to define, hard to quantify.  There is no statistical wand to neatly express the effect, its intangible.  Clutch, for instance is intangible, its hard to quantify.  Sure you can crunch some numbers (and 82games.com did) and calculate the percentage of FGs someone makes in the final 60 seconds of  games that are within 5 points and so on and so forth.  When 82games.com did the analysis they came up with Carmelo Anthony being the greatest clutch player in the NBA that year.  Who hear is ready to dawn the title of all-time great clutch player to Carmelo Anthony?  I know I'm not.  So clutch is very hard to define.  Its an intangible quality some people have and some people don't.  This was one the many intangible qualities Horry had.  Was it the most memorable quality?  You betcha!  Your average basketball fan or your average sport enthusiast remembers the Sacramento shot.  They remember the Game 5 against Detroit shot in 2005.  People also remember the infamous--the hip check of Nash into the scoreboard. (say what you will about the play, in many observer's eyes it advanced the Spurs passed the Suns)   

But do they remember the momentum changing 3-pointer in Quarter 2 of Game whatever that pushed a Laker lead to 4 when the other team had cut the lead to 1.  No.  Do they remember non-descript, routine, knock away of Nash's dribble that leads to a Spurs fast break in the 4th quarter as the Suns were trying to grab a crucial playoff game from the Spurs?  No.  How about a momentum changing offensive rebound as Houston improbably fought to keep themselves alive in Game 5 in 1994? No  Horry's career is literally a life-size mosaic of small, timely, plays, in the most crucial of moments that reverbate forevermore in the annals of NBA history as 7 Championship Victories across 2 decades and 3 different teams.

The single late game heroics of Robert Horry are no more significant to his career accomplishments as a singular piece of ceramic is to a grand Carthaginian mosaic.  Sure its what's memorable, but I'd wager many of those games Horry played in wouldn't be within a field goal's worth of victory without the crucial steal he makes in the 1 st quarter, the confidence shattering dunk he stuffs out of nowhere, the demoralizing offensive rebound he snatches from the team fighting for every possession.  Horry simply had an intangible knack for making the plays (any play: the block, the steal, the rebound, the dunk, the 3-pointer, the assist) at crucial times in crucial games.  Blessed with a high basketball IQ, first rate athleticism, and an extremely coordinated 6'9 frame, he consistently came up big almost every single time his team called on him. 

I don't have to take anybody's word for it the importance of Robert Horry to any of those teams.  Not his proponents or his detractors.  I simply look at the facts, every coach he had; from the mediocre Danny Ainge to the motivating Tomjanovich, to the Game Manager Phil Jackson, to the invariable Gregg Popovich made ample and consistent use of Robert Horry in the most crucial of times (playoffs) in the most crucial of moments.  Even at the end of his career with 2 bad knees, a chronic lower back, and both feet in the grave Popovich made sure Horry was there at crucial times of playoff games because no one had the intelligence, the saavy, the ability, and the track record of making the plays that need to be made for any team to succeed.  I, once again, place great emphasis on the fact that it could be ANY play, not just the final one and not just a field goal.  Horry had a knack for making not the steal, the game-changing steal, not the three, the momentum-breaking three, the heart-sinking rebound, etc.  Coaches knew that Playoffs were Horry time which is why his career minutes are 24 mpg during the season and 28 mpg during the playoffs. 

Horry also adapted his game to fit whatever role was most conducive to his team's success.  After one Houston Rockets championship, teams figured out Houston was running a bastardized version of the Lakers old half-court system.  Dump to Kareem, set 4 three point shooters when they double Kareem.  Well let's see, you can't leave Kenny Smith open, you can't leave (Vernon Maxwell/Clyde Drexler) open, you can't leave Mario Elie open, well lets see if their PF can sink a shot.  Horry develops into a 3 point shooter that season improving from 32% to 38% and tripling the amount of makes/game.  When Houston needed a 3-point shooting big man, Horry fit the role to a tee.  Phil Jackson made use of Horry's size and quickness to guard the low-post defensively and hover the perimeter offensively, crashing the offensive boards when any shot went up.  When the Lakers needed the versatility, Horry fit the role to a tee.  The Spurs needed a player to understand the exacting offense, make precision entry passes and defend in transition;  from BOTH forward spots, Horry fit the role to a tee.     

Some go so far as to say Robert Horry is the greatest role player of all time.  I am not sure about that statement especially if one were to label players like Dennis Rodman or Robert Parish as role players.  Some say no role player deserves to be in the hall simply being labeled as such.  I believe the Hall of Fame should represent the exceptional, no matter what the type of accomplishment, so long as the exceptionality bears victory.  After all, in the end, winning is what matters, not scoring titles, or all-NBA selections.  The truth of the matter, Horry is the greatest winner of his generation and his accomplishments' effect on the outcomes withstand objective scrutiny.  When one player succeeds as consistently, over as long a time, and in as many different situations as Robert Horry, should not the common denominator at last be given the due credit.  Not only do the championships, but the intangibles set Horry apart in history.   

Excellent post and you made a great case for Horry.  Props.
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Offline Ted

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 12:36:02 PM »
Excellent post and you made a great case for Horry.  Props.

No he didn't! He wrote a freaking romance novel! He bludgeoned you with flowing prose until your mind decided "well, he's writing a whole crapload of stuff here, it must be persuasive.

A "grand Carthaginian mosaic"?!?

WHAT

THE

HELL?

Skander merely took the prevailing argument for Horry in the HOF, made it pretty, and repeated it a few times. Yes Horry had intangibles. Yes he made big plays. Yes he played good defense. These are extraordinary moments or characteristics that stand out from an overall ordinary career.

I could also say Yes his playoff stats were inferior to his regular season stats. Yes he was an anemic rebounder for his size. Yes he missed 20 percent of the games over his career. (Shaquille O'Neal anyone?)

Of course you can't value a guy like Horry merely with objective measures. But when you value a guy solely with subjective measures, you end up focusing on moments rather than career performance. And you end up sounding like Danielle Steel. ;)

Robert Horry was a very smart player on the court. He was even smarter off the court. He played with the best big man in the game almost every season in he was the league. Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan -- they each had one thing in common during their peak years, Horry. I guess you could claim that as proof positive . . . Horry made the last three dominant, winning big men! He was the difference between a Hakeem and a Ewing, a Shaq and Divac, a Duncan and a Nowitzki.

These dominant big men are like the cornerstones of the grand Zoroastrian ziggurat ::) that is the career of Robert Keith Horry, remove them and the shining tower collapses.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 12:53:48 PM »
Quote
No he didn't! He wrote a freaking romance novel! He bludgeoned you with flowing prose until your mind decided "well, he's writing a whole crapload of stuff here, it must be persuasive.

A "grand Carthaginian mosaic"?!?

WHAT

THE

HELL?

Skander merely took the prevailing argument for Horry in the HOF, made it pretty, and repeated it a few times. Yes Horry had intangibles. Yes he made big plays. Yes he played good defense. These are extraordinary moments or characteristics that stand out from an overall ordinary career.

I hope you know that I took this entire thing as a compliment.

Quote
I could also say Yes his playoff stats were inferior to his regular season stats. Yes he was an anemic rebounder for his size. Yes he missed 20 percent of the games over his career. (Shaquille O'Neal anyone?)

So I guess Shaq isn't a Hall of Famer? 8)

Quote
Of course you can't value a guy like Horry merely with objective measures. But when you value a guy solely with subjective measures, you end up focusing on moments rather than career performance. And you end up sounding like Danielle Steel.

Oooh, the complimentary tone took a turn to jealousy here.

Quote
Robert Horry was a very smart player on the court. He was even smarter off the court. He played with the best big man in the game almost every season in he was the league. Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan -- they each had one thing in common during their peak years, Horry. I guess you could claim that as proof positive . . . Horry made the last three dominant, winning big men! He was the difference between a Hakeem and a Ewing, a Shaq and Divac, a Duncan and a Nowitzki.

. . . and a player such as this should be lost in the vortex of time.  <-- eh, eh?? :D

Quote
These dominant big men are like the cornerstones of the grand Zoroastrian ziggurat  that is the career of Robert Keith Horry, remove them and the shining tower collapses.

Ziggurats were actually Sumerian.  Nice play for the alliteration, though.  Now try for that accuracy. 8)
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 01:39:08 PM »
Ziggurats were actually Sumerian.  Nice play for the alliteration, though.  Now try for that accuracy. 8)

Sumerians were my favorites in "Age Of Empires".......
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Ted

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 01:45:44 PM »
I hope you know that I took this entire thing as a compliment.

You would. ::)

So I guess Shaq isn't a Hall of Famer? 8)

If I had my druthers . . .  8)

Oooh, the complimentary tone took a turn to jealousy here.

How do you do it Skander? How do you reach down into a woman's heart and play those heartstrings the way you do?

. . . and a player such as this should be lost in the vortex of time.  <-- eh, eh?? :D

All non-HOFers are lost in the vortex of time?

Ziggurats were actually Sumerian.  Nice play for the alliteration, though.  Now try for that accuracy.

There is ONE obscure reference to a Zoroastrian ziggurat on this site.

http://www.azerb.com/az-zoro.html

So take that!
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 03:57:59 PM »
Quote
If I had my druthers . . .

I'm surprised the vein in WOW's forehead hasn't popped yet.

Quote
How do you do it Skander? How do you reach down into a woman's heart and play those heartstrings the way you do?

Now you're calling wk a woman.  Ted, please, a little respect.

Quote
All non-HOFers are lost in the vortex of time?

. . . and Horry's loss would be sad. :'(

Quote
There is ONE obscure reference to a Zoroastrian ziggurat on this site.

http://www.azerb.com/az-zoro.html

So take that!

I want you to know that I clicked the link and read every single word.  That's right, its like that. ;D
I didn't find the word Ziggurat anywhere!  I did find where it said Zoroastrian Temple, though? 

So whammo!!
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline westkoast

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2008, 04:10:37 PM »
Quote
If I had my druthers . . .

I'm surprised the vein in WOW's forehead hasn't popped yet.

Quote
How do you do it Skander? How do you reach down into a woman's heart and play those heartstrings the way you do?

Now you're calling wk a woman.  Ted, please, a little respect.

Quote
All non-HOFers are lost in the vortex of time?

. . . and Horry's loss would be sad. :'(

Quote
There is ONE obscure reference to a Zoroastrian ziggurat on this site.

http://www.azerb.com/az-zoro.html

So take that!

I want you to know that I clicked the link and read every single word.  That's right, its like that. ;D
I didn't find the word Ziggurat anywhere!  I did find where it said Zoroastrian Temple, though? 

So whammo!!

See I thought the same thing when I read that.   Then I realized Ted offered to take me out to lunch.  Then it dawned on me, he thinks I am a 14 year old woman.  That is why he has been nicer to me lately.
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Offline Ted

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Re: Robert Horry HOF?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 04:11:11 PM »
I want you to know that I clicked the link and read every single word.  That's right, its like that. ;D
I didn't find the word Ziggurat anywhere!  I did find where it said Zoroastrian Temple, though? 

So whammo!!

Oh Skander . . .  ::) You have to put your mouse pointer over the second image on the right to bring up the image description!

BAM!

Oh Snap!

Proof positive baby!
"You take him Perk!" ~Kevin Garnett

"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton