Author Topic: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)  (Read 12218 times)

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 10:27:22 PM »
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Here's the first two questions; "what was your class rank when you graduated from West Point?"  "What was your grade point average?"

Because that did wonders to end the political career of our current president.

Offline Lurker

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 07:40:03 AM »

McCain is clueless about what is happening in the economy. He was one of the turds that voted to dismantle the depression-era regulations that separated financial institutions from insurance agencies!


This shows how little you really understand of the whole financial crisis.

There are plenty of financial institutions that have combined commercial banking, investment banking and insurance without going head over heels into derivatives.  JP Morgan Chase is a strong example.   Bank of America another.

The repeal of the 1930 era rules have helped the American financial industry compete with the foreign companies in what is now a global economy.  Financial institutions in other countries were not burdened by archaic laws.  Just because commercial and investment banks are allowed to be combined didn't cause them to underwrite bad mortgages or invest in financial instruments they don't understand.

The breakdown of the walls separating financial institutions didn't cause the last 3-4 administrations (especially Carter & Clinton) to pressure Fannie & Freddie to extend more & more credit to low income housing.

Rick, go hide in your back bunker and suck on your gold bars for nourishment.  The sky is falling.

Talk about clueless! The sky really is falling, or more precisely the financial markets and the world's economy. It's not just one or two banks with problems, they are all in serious trouble. Even the banks you mentioned have seen their stocks go down along with the rest.  The economy is in serious trouble when housing fails, and it takes investment banks with it.  Real Estate should not the primary engine for a country's economy.

Paulson wants Congress to give him $700 billion for a bail-out and you think things are fine?  Do yourself a favor and buy some gold now, before it's too late.

Yes, Rick, these are tough times economically around the world.  But worldwide unemployment is still at historically low levels, transactional banking is still running smoothly and for the most part the world's economy is sputtering along.  Even our own GDP is still growing albeit much slower than it was.  For all the talk about credit drying up I sure am still receiving lots of offers for low rate money from various financial institutions.  Others I know are also.  Local and regional banks are still lending.  It is just that the big boys who were selling all these short term derivatives to each other are finding that no one wants to buy them any more.

Yes, the most power grabbing administration this country has ever seen is still trying to grab more power.  An unfettered bailout from one Wall Street insider (Paulson) to the others.  However, our "collapsing" government finally stood up and said "ENOUGH".  There is a problem with liquidity at the highest most complicated levels of the financial industry.  And it will impact those people and institutions that took the highest risk/reward positions.  And the bailout that the administration is proposing is crazy...especially some of the things that Paulson/Bernacke are saying.  Yes there is going to be a credit squeeze but it really will only effect those people/companies who have never learned to live within their means.  There are plenty of people and companies that sre good credit risks that do still have capital available to them.  And for every money market fund that "broke the buck" there are dozen others that are not in that position.  For the few big names that have been shaken out there are several that are surviving and growing.  Overall we are entering tough times but not the end of the world.

The stock market is being driven by irrational behavior right now...a lot of it being fueled by day trading, internet nuts that think they are smart enough to play with the big boys.  Short selling profitable companies that are growing market share just to hammer their prices and try to make a profit is hurting the market more than the actual economic indicators.  And all through the market there are solid, profitable companies that are well run but whose prices are being hammered just because the "market is collapsing".

Just because there is no current bubble for you to ride to extraordinary profits doesn't mean the market is collapsing.  Actually the market is doing its job and shaking out the biggest risk takers.  And the SEC by suspending short sales is trying to take the speculators who are driving the irrationality out of the markets.  Again this is a good thing because those speculators aren't buying and selling based on the strength/weakness of the individual companies or even the strength/weakness of the overall economy...they are buying and selling stocks as if they were a commodity trying to squeeze out the most miniscule of profits.

BTW how shiny are those gold certificates you are buying?  And do you realize that when the entire economic system collapses that there will be no financial institutions to give you actual gold in exchange for those certificates?  And even if you hold actual gold bars they won't do you much good...if the entire economic system is collapsing as you say then the replacement economy is going to be based on pure barter.  Gold only holds value when both sides desire it.  But it won't help anyone grow food, catch game, clothe their families, [provide shelter, etc. if the entire system collapses.  Do you think that the guy who owns shelves full of canned goods is going to give you food for gold?  WTF will he do with the gold?

So go back to your bunker chicken little.  The sky is falling.
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Offline Laker Fan

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2008, 04:36:59 PM »

McCain is clueless about what is happening in the economy. He was one of the turds that voted to dismantle the depression-era regulations that separated financial institutions from insurance agencies!


This shows how little you really understand of the whole financial crisis.

There are plenty of financial institutions that have combined commercial banking, investment banking and insurance without going head over heels into derivatives.  JP Morgan Chase is a strong example.   Bank of America another.

The repeal of the 1930 era rules have helped the American financial industry compete with the foreign companies in what is now a global economy.  Financial institutions in other countries were not burdened by archaic laws.  Just because commercial and investment banks are allowed to be combined didn't cause them to underwrite bad mortgages or invest in financial instruments they don't understand.

The breakdown of the walls separating financial institutions didn't cause the last 3-4 administrations (especially Carter & Clinton) to pressure Fannie & Freddie to extend more & more credit to low income housing.

Rick, go hide in your back bunker and suck on your gold bars for nourishment.  The sky is falling.

Talk about clueless! The sky really is falling, or more precisely the financial markets and the world's economy. It's not just one or two banks with problems, they are all in serious trouble. Even the banks you mentioned have seen their stocks go down along with the rest.  The economy is in serious trouble when housing fails, and it takes investment banks with it.  Real Estate should not the primary engine for a country's economy.

Paulson wants Congress to give him $700 billion for a bail-out and you think things are fine?  Do yourself a favor and buy some gold now, before it's too late.

Yes, Rick, these are tough times economically around the world.  But worldwide unemployment is still at historically low levels, transactional banking is still running smoothly and for the most part the world's economy is sputtering along.  Even our own GDP is still growing albeit much slower than it was.  For all the talk about credit drying up I sure am still receiving lots of offers for low rate money from various financial institutions.  Others I know are also.  Local and regional banks are still lending.  It is just that the big boys who were selling all these short term derivatives to each other are finding that no one wants to buy them any more.

Yes, the most power grabbing administration this country has ever seen is still trying to grab more power.  An unfettered bailout from one Wall Street insider (Paulson) to the others.  However, our "collapsing" government finally stood up and said "ENOUGH".  There is a problem with liquidity at the highest most complicated levels of the financial industry.  And it will impact those people and institutions that took the highest risk/reward positions.  And the bailout that the administration is proposing is crazy...especially some of the things that Paulson/Bernacke are saying.  Yes there is going to be a credit squeeze but it really will only effect those people/companies who have never learned to live within their means.  There are plenty of people and companies that sre good credit risks that do still have capital available to them.  And for every money market fund that "broke the buck" there are dozen others that are not in that position.  For the few big names that have been shaken out there are several that are surviving and growing.  Overall we are entering tough times but not the end of the world.

The stock market is being driven by irrational behavior right now...a lot of it being fueled by day trading, internet nuts that think they are smart enough to play with the big boys.  Short selling profitable companies that are growing market share just to hammer their prices and try to make a profit is hurting the market more than the actual economic indicators.  And all through the market there are solid, profitable companies that are well run but whose prices are being hammered just because the "market is collapsing".

Just because there is no current bubble for you to ride to extraordinary profits doesn't mean the market is collapsing.  Actually the market is doing its job and shaking out the biggest risk takers.  And the SEC by suspending short sales is trying to take the speculators who are driving the irrationality out of the markets.  Again this is a good thing because those speculators aren't buying and selling based on the strength/weakness of the individual companies or even the strength/weakness of the overall economy...they are buying and selling stocks as if they were a commodity trying to squeeze out the most miniscule of profits.

BTW how shiny are those gold certificates you are buying?  And do you realize that when the entire economic system collapses that there will be no financial institutions to give you actual gold in exchange for those certificates?  And even if you hold actual gold bars they won't do you much good...if the entire economic system is collapsing as you say then the replacement economy is going to be based on pure barter.  Gold only holds value when both sides desire it.  But it won't help anyone grow food, catch game, clothe their families, [provide shelter, etc. if the entire system collapses.  Do you think that the guy who owns shelves full of canned goods is going to give you food for gold?  WTF will he do with the gold?

So go back to your bunker chicken little.  The sky is falling.



Touche' Lurker, I couldn't have said it better myself, wish I had time to add more to your laser guided missile that just blew Rick out of the water. 95% of mortgage holders still make their payments, this bailout will only continue the process of privatizing profits while socializing losses, the market must self correct to come out of this, leaner and meaner if necessary but it is THE ONLY WAY this can be fixed.

It was Carter who put the pieces in place for this mess and Clinton who applied the pressure to give loans to anyone who could walk into a bank and say they wanted to buy a house, all a part of trying to "level the playing field". Well, the playing field IS NOT level, some illegal alien working at for minimum wage or some uneducated high school dropout, white, black. brown, or yellow, working at McDonalds CANNOT AFFORD A $400,000.00 HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet Fany Mae and Freddie Mac underwrote this worthless paper because of pressure from the Clinton administration to put minorities into homeowner status, and unscrupulous lenders saw a chance at massive, easy, short-term profits with no consequences because 2 quasi governmental companies guaranteed their stupidity.

I m a politically neutral person, I don't believe ANY man has an answer to this world problems, but Rick is an IDIOT to lay this at the feet of John McCain, he has been warning of lack of regulation for YEARS, only a fool would claim otherwise, This baby belongs square in the lap of Carter and Clinton, and all the cowards that dared not question the house of cards they built, McCain is NOT in that group.

The sky will fall if this bailout happens, Marxism at its finest.
Dan

jemagee

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2008, 05:20:44 PM »
So wait, is it the democrats or the republicans fault?

If this is Clintons fault how come it took almost 2 full terms of the monkeys administration for it to happen?


Offline westkoast

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2008, 05:29:13 PM »
So wait, is it the democrats or the republicans fault?

If this is Clintons fault how come it took almost 2 full terms of the monkeys administration for it to happen?





Previous administrations fault for getting the ball rolling and this current administrations fault for spending more time looking for WMDs then taking a solid look at the economy ?? ? ?
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Offline Skandery

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2008, 06:12:45 PM »
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I m a politically neutral person, I don't believe ANY man has an answer to this world problems, but Rick is an IDIOT to lay this at the feet of John McCain, he has been warning of lack of regulation for YEARS, only a fool would claim otherwise, This baby belongs square in the lap of Carter and Clinton, and all the cowards that dared not question the house of cards they built, McCain is NOT in that group.

So it was Clinton who forced these Investment banks to invent shady financial instruments, like these "mortgage-backed securities" to gamble with on the basis of subprime loans.  I see.  Did Clinton also force Citigroup, Merrill Lynch, and Lehman brothers to fund and grease the wheels of David Fastow's multi-partner/Enron "HIDE THE DEBT FROM EVERYBODY" fiasco that led to the largest corporate failure in American history.  And by default, ruined the lives and retirements of thousands of people.  Sorry Dan, on this one you're off base.  This is good old fashioned CORPORATE GREED run amuck and enabled by good old-fashioned right-wing, free-market dogma and a deregulation culture.     

NEWSFLASH you Wall-Street a$$holes, you can't have a free market when demand is INFINITE!!! 

You're right about the $700 Billion Welfare check that the President thinks he can scare us into giving those poor, POOR Wall Street executives and institutional investors a helping hand.  Thought up and drafted by NONE OTHER than a former wall-street, investment bank executive, Henry Paulson who is lo and behold a part of the BUSH administration.  Every single one of them can GET BENT!  The mind-blowing part of this tragedy is that something as wretched as this Bail-Out doesn't start a violent revolution in this era of information and communication.

The same, exact, neo-con, free-market, rugged individualist, survival of the fittest, fascists who'd rather gnaw their arm off than use it to lend a penny in welfare are expecting the gov't to bail them out.  These same people that talk about shrinking gov't down small enought to DROWN it have the audacity to ask it to bail them out of the mess their greed put them into.

This Bail-Out is costing each and every on of you $6,000!  Everyone reading this, do you want you're money going to a Wall-street industry fat cat?  Outrageous!!       
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2008, 06:44:56 PM »
So wait, is it the democrats or the republicans fault?

If this is Clintons fault how come it took almost 2 full terms of the monkeys administration for it to happen?





Very little that a president does during his term/s with regard to the economy will have any impact until after he leaves office, some decisions take decades to have any impact. In fact, presidents have far less impact than most people realize which is why it is a red herring to think they can change much, exceptions being  like the New Deal and the Savings and Loan bailout, both of which directly correlate to what is happening now, and both of which can be traced back directly to decisions made by presidents, Roosevelt in the '30's and Carter in the late '70's.

Roosevelt changed the way banks are regulated and began to systematically socialize programs thereby exacerbating and extending the Great Depression. Although it did put a lot of people back to work, it also created a welfare state that the U.S. has never really recovered from. Carter's 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) forced banks to loan money to low income borrowers in an attempt to boost home-ownership amongst this demographic, regardless of the financial risk involved and the forerunner of sub prime loans was born.

The direct result then was inflationary spending and 21% prime rates (I remember those days well). The long term effect was as deregulation continued under Clinton, the CRA was used to force mortgage lenders, "backed" by Fanny and Freddie, to increase the raw % of loans to borrowers who simply could not afford the house they were buying, the incentive being commercial and investment bankers were no longer separated by any wall of regulation, investment bankers began buying up paper like crazy, and encouraging the continuing lowering of lending standards.

Banks recognized the only way to do this and be profitable in the short term was to offer sub prime loans. For this to work they had to work in quantity, not quality, so Clinton pressured them to lower their lending standards even further, so virtually anyone who could walk qualified, anyone with half a brain could see where this was heading but with all the fraud and corruption going, too many people with their hands in the pie were making 10's of millions to say anything. Those that did, like McCain, were ignored as the bubble continued to swell, none of it BTW was tied to gold, but rather to property that was by now inflated anywhere from 25-40% depending on geographical location. No way no how was this sustainable (see dot com bubble) and so now property , which is far more valuable than the gold Rick loves to promote is in a free fall and guess what? Gold is not rising at anywhere near the rates predicted, because it backs nothing.

Realistically, this mess is fixable by natural market correction cycles, capitalism by design accomplishes this with no outside interference. Lehman fails, B of A buys their paper for pennies on the dollar, and a financial institution that was poorly run and greedy beyond comprehension disappears, as it should. Those that bought homes or cars THEY knew they couldn't afford, bought because some moron at Countrywide, sniffing that big commission and knowing full well Lehman would buy the paper so it wouldn't be is problem told them "Sure, you can afford this 5 bedroom house on a Taco Bell salary" loses said house as they should. YOU DON'T REWARD BAD DECISIONS BY THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no such thing as a business too big to fail, in a capitalist economy, you win or you lose. If you win, it is because you conducted business within the parameters you knew would work and expanded as the market allowed. If you lose, it is because you had a poor business model, mismanaged, grew too fast, were unrealistic in your forecasts, or took big risks that didn't pay off, or a combination of any of these. Mortgage lenders took RIDICULOUS risks they KNEW would spell disaster down the road, they deserve to fail, those that were smart deserve to come in and buy up the paper they can and reap the profits as they clean it up. The people in this instant gratification society we live in who weren't satisfied with a starter home, they had to have the biggest and the best, deserve to lose their homes.

Remember, NINETY FIVE PERCENT of all mortgages are NOT in default, the foolish 5 need to lose their homes anyway, just to stabilize the housing market and streamline the financial market. The biggest mistake anyone can make is bail out these idiots and create a totally socialized banking system, when have you EVER, EVER, heard of a government agency that can do something better than the private sector????? The governments hands are all over this mess so the proof is in the pudding, THEY CAN'T!

Deregulation, failure to enforce stringent lending practices, fraud, greedy consumers, and lastly, 2 presidents who were more socialist than capitalist led to this.
Dan

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2008, 08:00:56 PM »
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I m a politically neutral person, I don't believe ANY man has an answer to this world problems, but Rick is an IDIOT to lay this at the feet of John McCain, he has been warning of lack of regulation for YEARS, only a fool would claim otherwise, This baby belongs square in the lap of Carter and Clinton, and all the cowards that dared not question the house of cards they built, McCain is NOT in that group.

So it was Clinton who forced these Investment banks to invent shady financial instruments, like these "mortgage-backed securities" to gamble with on the basis of subprime loans.  I see.  Did Clinton also force Citigroup, Merrill Lynch, and Lehman brothers to fund and grease the wheels of David Fastow's multi-partner/Enron "HIDE THE DEBT FROM EVERYBODY" fiasco that led to the largest corporate failure in American history.  And by default, ruined the lives and retirements of thousands of people.  Sorry Dan, on this one you're off base.  This is good old fashioned CORPORATE GREED run amuck and enabled by good old-fashioned right-wing, free-market dogma and a deregulation culture.     
 


You're misinterpreting my point Skander. Clinton DID apply pressure on Fanny and Freddie to up the % of loans to low-income and minority borrowers, that is no secret and is in fact well-documented. But in doing so he unleashed corporate greed and and these "shady financial instruments", he didn't care how it was done, as long as it was done, and cronies of his who had ZERO financial or business training like Jamie Gorelick made out like fat rats in setting up this house of cards. The Enron mess was part and parcel of the whole lowered lending/funding standards as the corruption and fraudulent lending practices escalated, and the lack of oversight and culpability continued.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you that corporate greed and fraud is responsible for this, but it was enabled by the afore-mentioned politicians. It was not just "enabled by good old-fashioned right-wing, free-market dogma and a deregulation culture". It is also left wing welfare state socialistic ideology as well, both sides of the political aisle, BOTH SIDES, share the blame for this. Barney Frank should be in prison for his role in turning a blind eye to Fanny and Freddie's shenanigans despite chairing the oversight committee and pooh poohing experts warning of the impending collapse in housing, Charles Rangel likewise for tax fraud, both are tied irrevocably to this housing mess, Frank will face no scrutiny and Rangel will say, oops, my bad, here's all those taxes I forgot to pay and that will be that. this is not a right wing left wing debacle, to spin it as such is disingenuous, but to not hold Clinton accountable is ludicrous at its core.

And by the way, Enron is no longer the largest corporate failure in American history, as of late last night, that dubious honor now goes to Wamu, another byproduct of this corporate greed fueled by political expediency, and Wachovia is well on its way to the same fate. 
Dan

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2008, 09:23:19 AM »
The credit score required to get prime rates has only recently began to drop in the last few years.  If this was the result of "pressure" from Clinton, it sure took quite a while to culminate.

The crisis we're in is not the result of "pressure" (which is impossible to quantify) from Clinton, but much more from the deregulation of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley act of 1999, which while happening under clinton's term, was very much a Republican child.  The Act was introduced by republicans, and in a republican controlled house and senate ended up getting more than 2/3 support, which would have prevented a presidential veto. 

Heck, an earlier version of the bill, before gaining the 2/3 amount to prevent a veto, was met with a guarantee of a veto from the executive office.

Pinning this on the feet of Clinton is disingenuous at best.

BTW, the republican that introduced the bill was, former top economic advisor to McCain, who stepped down this summer, but is still an unofficial advisor.  McCain also voted in favor of the Bill.

Now, don't get me wrong, it's been a collective failure since that time by both parties.  But to put the housing crisis on Clinton's doorstep is wrong, IMO. 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 09:44:55 AM by Derek Bodner »

Offline Lurker

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2008, 12:06:31 PM »
Another major factor is the continued runup of the federal deficit.  And IMO this is a big part of the current crisis...the government can't borrow money.  Thus the complaints of illiquidity.

Another reason to question the buyout is the lack of support from the largest retirement systems.  If the entire system was ready to collapse I would expect to see Calpers, the Texas and NY pension funds screaming bloody murder.  Those organizations showing weakness would impact the average joe a lot more than a few investment banks, hedge funds and other financial institutions that gambled on continuing price increases to support exotic instruments.  The unions are against the bailout.  Again this doesn't make sense if the entire system is collapsing as the big wigs in DC would have us believe.  Paulson and Bernanke are too closely tied to Wall Street to be objective (think about Spurs/Lakers/Sixers fans discussing their teams).  There is serious problems and some tough times ahead as our system shakes out the marginal borrowers...whether they are big or small.  But the total collapse of the financial system without a $700 billion infusion seems more and more farfetched.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2008, 09:46:29 AM »
What's a matter jemagee, don't think you could put him on the spot?

Here's the first two questions; "what was your class rank when you graduated from West Point?"  "What was your grade point average?"

Then you could follow up with his basic knowledge of economics.  Like for example, what is a free market, and then ask, is the US a free market?

Starting off with two pointless questions.  Really impressive.

I think the ego/door question was more relevant.

What we've got is two political parties that are each trying to tell us what to do.  One one side, you've got the Republicans, who want to tell us  how we should act.  On the other side, you've got the Democrats, who want to tell us how we should think. 

Given that both are absolutely ludicrous positions, I'm inclined to want to go 3rd party.

When Obama named Biden as his VP pick, that sealed Obama's fate with me;  there was - and remains - no way in the world that he'll get my vote, because Biden is one of the folks I have wanted ousted from the Senate for YEARS.  (Biden was actually in FAVOR of funding the troops, and my reaction was, "I hate having that man on my side.")  Seeing some of Obama's political commercials since that time, I'm completely convinced that he's no agent of the change that I want to see in Washington.  He represents more of the failed Democrat/Republican blue-state/red-state mentality that Ross Perot claimed was ruining this country in 1992.  (Bob Dole's response after the 1992 election cost him my vote in 1996 - because he did exactly what Perot claimed the political parties would do.)

So all McCain had to do was not screw up.  And then I saw one of *HIS* political commercials - attacking Obama on an issue where MCCAIN ESSENTIALLY VOTED THE SAME WAY.  If there's something I like less than politics, it's dishonesty.

McCain might *STILL* get my vote.  He does have a record of reaching across the aisle, and that counts for something with me.  Granted, some of those times he's reached across the aisle have been mistakes, but I'll give the man credit for TRYING.

You see, I believe both McCain and Obama are good LEADERS, and that, more than anything, is what I look for in a president - LEADERSHIP.  In fact, I think this is the FIRST time in the days of my political awareness that both parties have given me a GOOD CHOICE in terms of leadership.  (And it's about time.)

Right now, I'll be quite honest about it:  I have a political agenda.  I want to see America become ONE NATION again - one America united behind our government, with confidence that it's a good government, representing us properly in the world community.  Bush failed;  he used the power we had as a club, and if we alienated everyone else, SO WHAT?  Clinton failed;  he represented us as a self-serving group with no backbone and questionable morals.  George H.W. Bush did a good job on the world stage;  I'm proud to have voted for him in '88, and had Perot in '92 not been a better choice, there's no question that Bush would have had my vote in '92.  (Face it - we put the wrong Bush in the White House in 2000.)  And Reagan was exactly what I wanted as a President - a President that fueled American patriotism, was respected on the world stage, and that simultaneously managed to be demanding to our adversaries while at the same time, not overly upsetting to them.  Reagan walked the tightrope between overly adversarial and overly accommodating.  And Carter was probably the best and most honorable man, but not a good President.  (I still say one of our past presidents should have made Carter our Ambassador to the U.N., because that's the PERFECT role for him.)

Ever since 1991 - the first Iraq war - we've had this red-state/blue-state mentality.  That *MUST* stop.  Heck, the political parties don't operate all that differently, as can be seen by this ILL-ADVISED bailout plan.  When the rubber meets the road, the two can find ways to agree.  But they spend all their time and effort telling us how different they are.

One tells us how to act.  The other tells us how to think.  And the U.S. Constitution tells me that I can tell them both where to stick their ideas, and their only recourse is to try to change my mind about listening to them.  Now - you tell me - given those three choices, which sounds the best to you?

P.S.  I will *NOT*, not now, nor in the future, cast a vote in favor of *ANY* Congressman or Senator who supports the $700 billion bailout - for *ANY* *OFFICE*.  If they cast a vote for this - whether they're right or they're wrong in the long run - they need to know that it's political suicide as far as I'm concerned.
Joe

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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2008, 10:27:33 AM »
Actually, I see the current financial mess as a CONTINUATION of Enron.  Those companies that didn't get taken down by Enron's fall quickly tried to find a new way to make a quick buck, and postpone THEIR fall by coming up with a new source of "quick profit."  The problem is that they tried the same trick again, and it came out the same way.  You don't make money by throwing good money after bad.  By trying to delay taking their medicine - SUCCESSFUL IN THAT DELAY - all they've done is postpone the inevitable.

They tried to stop this again, but failed:  they wanted the Social Security money put in the system.  Surprise, surprise.  I was against that, if you recall, claiming it would fuel high-risk speculation, with a government bail-out to follow.  So instead of the Social Security receivers taking the loss, it remains the banks.  And - just to show you the foolishness of laying this at anyone's doorstep, for those of you who point to Clinton and calling him at fault for this, if that had happened, Clinton would be off the hook and Bush would be on it.  It's not one party that's at fault for this - much as many of you want to make it look that way.

In my scenario, it's not deregulation, nor politicians, nor anything like that to blame at all.  It's corporate greed.  Instead of absorbing the losses they took due to their foolishness, they tried to make them back.  And when they ran out of ways to do that, now they're looking at those losses.

The politicians on both sides of the aisle are guilty of inattention, and as a result, now have a choice of giving these companies a NEW stream of quick profit ($700 Billion, and in return, you'll give me nothing that anyone wants?), or watching it collapse and have that on their record.  The question is whether they're smart enough to say, "No thanks;  you banks can fend for yourself and I'll live with the political heat for letting it happen," or whether they'll be the NEXT group to lose money to the banks.

Skander's wrong to lay this at the feet of the "right wing."  We're also wrong to lay this at the feet of Clinton and Carter.  And the fact that EACH SIDE is trying to lay this at the feet of the other side is part of what the problem actually is - and it's why that, as Skander correctly observed, that in the age of information, there's no revolution because of the happening.

The fact is that TOO MUCH infomation is effectively bad as NOT ENOUGH.  Everyone understands that in the event of the latter, you are unable to analyze the situation.  But given too much information, you become the victim of ANALYSIS PARALYSIS.  Since MANY political factors contributed to this situation - factors from BOTH sides of the aisle, people want to blame the government.

I maintain that it is *FAR* simpler than that.  It's the fault of the risk-takers in the financial world.  Trying to find out WHY they took the risks is pointless, and more simply explained by greed than by convoluted political theories proposed by either the left or the right.

Skander's question is itself the key that unlocks the mystery.  Why no revolution?  Because, as is often the case when dealing with our politicians, no one is sure who to revolt against.  And by convincing us - as many of you have demonstrated - that it's the OTHER GUY'S fault, makes it increasingly likely that we'll never be able to get together on a revolution.

Face it;  what we're up against is a time-proven strategy:  Divide and Conquer.

And there's only one strategy to overcome divide-and-conquer.  And that's to stop fighting amongst ourselves on which party to assign the blame to, and hold them *BOTH* eqaully accountable.  Unity is the ONLY solution that stands up to divide-and-conquer.
Joe

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Offline Skandery

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2008, 04:31:59 PM »
Quote
The politicians on both sides of the aisle are guilty of inattention, and as a result, now have a choice of giving these companies a NEW stream of quick profit ($700 Billion, and in return, you'll give me nothing that anyone wants?), or watching it collapse and have that on their record.  The question is whether they're smart enough to say, "No thanks;  you banks can fend for yourself and I'll live with the political heat for letting it happen," or whether they'll be the NEXT group to lose money to the banks.

We just got the answer to that question this morning.  The bail-out is happening and every single tax-payer in the country is a LOSER.  The winners are, of course, the investment banks who now can unload their most worthless securities on us (the stupid, trusting, and ignorant) electorate who keep on putting the same people in power:  election cycle after election cycle thinking stuff like this won't happen.  More winners, Executive and CEO golden parachutes and compensation will be subject to potential government oversight (anyone having trouble reading between the lines).  LOSERS, THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR FAMILIES LOSING THEIR HOMES.  And at least a couple of honest economists have said that the chance these securities rebound in value and the loan is paid back to the taxpayer in principle with interest is NIL, NADA, MEGANEGATORY.  I say every single tax-paying citizen out there having $6,000 go from their pockets directly to institutional investor millionaires while having their house foreclosed deserves it.

Blatent Welfare for the mega-rich!  Only in America!

Quote
Skander's wrong to lay this at the feet of the "right wing." 


I call it like I see it.  You agree that corporate greed is the culprit.  True or False corporate greed is more susceptible to cause harm with more regulation (government oversight) or deregulation (the stripping away of government oversight).  You just saw what deregulation does for the average person in California who just wanted to turn the light in their house on.  True or False, deregulation is a right-wing ideology.  Derek just showed you who passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.  True or False, are those policy-makers right-wing Republicans.  Sorry Joe, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.  Of course, this whole, sad tragedy is perpetuated by these money-hungry, financial oligarchs who manipulate people into concentrating power in their hands because Jesus is Lord, Abortion is murder, and Evolution is the Devil. 

George W. Bush, Ted Haggard, Tom Delay, Rick Davis, Newt Gingrich, Trent Lott, T.D. Jakes, Mitch McConnell, Pat Robertson, Ben Bernanke, Ken Lay, Karl Rove, Bill Kristol, Larry Craig, Rupert Murdoch. 

THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN AMERICA WITH THE MORAL HIGHGROUND!?!?!?!?!?
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: McCain/Obama debate, debate (heh)
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2008, 01:00:25 AM »
Corporate greed is successful whether you regulate or whether you de-regulate.  Regulation prohibits the entry of new competition into the market, thereby creating an effective monopoly;  deregulation means no checks and balances and oversight to make sure we're not being ripped off.

You live in Columbia, MO, Skander.  Do you get good cable TV service?  Do you think you'd get better service if someone could compete with the only provider, or do you think the service you're getting is as good as you're going to get?  How about your land-line phones?  Your natural gas?  I think I'm at the mercy of Mediacom, Centurytel, and Ameren UE - and that they know that my options are to do it through them, or to do without.  And I think they're making a mint.

What I saw in the Enron video in California wasn't a free market, but COLLUSION.  It's supposed to be just as illegal in the workplace as it was in baseball.  The problem is that it gets punished about the same way in both.

You lay the Enron problem at the feet of de-regulation.  I disagree.  The government oversight that was supposed to be happening in the rules of the SEC was still there;  it didn't catch the problem.  With additional regulation, Enron would have done the same thing - except without competition.  As it was, they had to invite others to play in their sandbox.  You see, Enron wasn't the ONLY energy company doing the price-gouging in California. 

Absolutely, deregulation is a right-wing ideology.  Government funding for "the public good" is a left-wing ideology, correct?  You see, BOTH SIDES are playing in the same ballpark;  they're BOTH guilty.  And until you assign equal blame, and hold both responsible, you allow divide and conquer to continue...because it's more important that "you" (the general "you," not specifically you) be right in your evaluation than it is to fix the problem in the first place.

And while you point out one bill passed by the Right-wingers, Lurker and others have referenced policies passed by the Left-Wingers.  The problem with your philosophy here is that you're focusing on ONLY ONE COMPONENT.  In a situation like this, this can't happen because of JUST ONE COMPONENT.  It is the lack of ability to work together that creates the loopholes that can be used to exploit.  And arguing that the single vision of either party is complete enough is obviously false. 

So Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, and Barney Frank should be our moral examples?  The left has its share of scumbags, Skander.

And by the way, if more people DID believe that Jesus is Lord and abortion is murder and started acting like it, then maybe our country would have a strong enough moral compass not to accept what is passing as government and actually make a few sacrifices in order to do something about it, instead of looking at it from the self-centered view.  Sorry, Skander, but that "Love of money is the root of all evil" thing didn't come from either the left OR the right side of the aisle;  that one comes out of the Good Book - and I don't mean the Constitution.  Of course, I'm not supposed to quote that particular book, if I subscribe to much of the left-wing philosophy, am I?

Face it - by accepting positions that are Christianity-hostile, Democrats knowingly alienate voters who believe the Bible is more relevant to their lives than the Constitution is.  Bible-thumping Christians aren't welcome in the Democratic party.  It's not because we're stupid or ignorant - despite the words that the "enlightened" like to use - it's because they have no interest in listening to our views.

You see it as simply a Christian thing.  I don't.  Give the movement against religion in general a little time, and success, and the Koran will be next on their hit list.  Recognizing any power higher than the Government isn't in the best interest of who?  That's right...it isn't in the best interest of THE GOVERNMENT.

Big government doesn't work because big government is too powerful to care what you or I think.  Bring that government down to our states - and then down to our communities...where you and/or I can get our hands around someone's neck if they try to tell us how to think or how to act - or which millionaires we should want to bail out.

In the meantime, I'll be stocking up on tea, for when I finally get to visit Boston.


Joe

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Offline Ted

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On the bailout
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2008, 10:32:24 AM »
Did anyone else see the last episode of Jim Cramer? He talked about the bailout in some depth, and he seemed to make some sense to me. Granted he spent NO TIME assigning blame, but did make a couple of points that stuck with me.

1. The bailout needs to unwind these financial "papers" down to individual loans, if that happens, it will work. It will keep people who deserve help from losing their homes, but won't reward the institutions and borrowers who made ridiculous transactions.

2. The 700 billion is not falling into some bottomless abyss. The money spent will be purchasing financial instruments backed by real assets (homes with some market value, that is). Whether these assets are valued as highly as they were when the initial transaction was made is one thing, but then again, the bailout agency is not going to be paying original value on these instruments either.

I know Cramer is part of the Wall Street establishment, but he seems to at least have the individual investor's interest in mind. Personally, I do not yet understand the situation well enough to come out for or against the bailout. And besides, it seems like it is going to happen whether I like it or not; so, it now seems more important to figure out how I can get through it in good shape rather than figure out who to blame: Jesus, Mohammed, Bill Clinton, George Bush, or Barney Frank. By the way, who the heck is Barney Frank?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 10:34:07 AM by Ted »
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