thinking about putting linux on the kids computer

[WayOutWest]

As far as basic users, using it.  I let my friends use it when they come over and I am on my laptop.  They navigate fine once I show them where Firefox is.

Agreed, but that is NOT the point.  Why am I not surprised? 

[westkoast]

As far as basic users, using it.  I let my friends use it when they come over and I am on my laptop.  They navigate fine once I show them where Firefox is.

Agreed, but that is NOT the point.  Why am I not surprised? 

Is the point of this thread not about a child being able to use it?

Why am I not surprised that a Mexican guys ego is dented and he is forever holding a grudge against an operating system of all things? E-Machismo.

[WayOutWest]

As far as basic users, using it.  I let my friends use it when they come over and I am on my laptop.  They navigate fine once I show them where Firefox is.

Agreed, but that is NOT the point.  Why am I not surprised? 

Is the point of this thread not about a child being able to use it?

Why am I not surprised that a Mexican guys ego is dented and he is forever holding a grudge against an operating system of all things? E-Machismo.

LOL.  The only OS I hold a grudge against is VAX-VMS.  I won't go into the ugly details.

[Derek Bodner]

So what WoW is saying is that it's linux's fault that OEM's don't ship out driver CD's on pre-installed linux machines, and it's linux's fault that hardware manufacturers don't write drivers for linux for their  hardware?

Ok.

[WayOutWest]

So what WoW is saying is that it's linux's fault that OEM's don't ship out driver CD's on pre-installed linux machines, and it's linux's fault that hardware manufacturers don't write drivers for linux for their  hardware?

Ok.

No, that is not what I'm saying.  I'm saying in the end Linux will get blamed for OEM problems JUST like Windows gets blamed for them as well.  Until VAR's step up to the plate, Dell is jumping on the bandwagon, I don't think it will be an experience on the same level as Windows. 

Bods, do you work with end users or are you strictly tech?  Strickly tech guys, like Dilbert, don't understand the battles on the front lines with end users.  I've gone from writing source code to sales and marketing and EVERYTHING in between.  End users are like a box of chocolates......... 

[Derek Bodner]

I'm not arguing end result.  I understand the frustrations of the end user.  I'm not arguing that Linux should is ready for the mainstream (in fact, I've argued against using it on this very message board).  I'm talking about culpability and where to place the blame for the frustrating user experience.  I agree with the problems, I don't agree on who's fault the problems are. 

The bottom line is that the linux kernel recognizes and works with far more hardware than the windows kernel, and Ubuntu does a great job of managing drivers which are written for linux.  Comments like "clearly ubuntu is not intuitive enough" is not deserved.  In fact, Ubuntu's approach to handling the installation of drivers is infinitely more intuitive than windows approach of handling drivers (don't confuse OEM packaged CD's with something the Windows OS natively does).  Are there problems?  Yup.  Are the problems a lack of intuitiveness from Ubuntu/Linux?  Nope.  It's from a lack of hardware support by hardware vendors (primarily wireless cards).

Agreed on problems, disagree on who's to blame.

BTW, you made a comment that "non tech people shouldn't use a non-windows OS", which I don't agree with at all.  I don't like Mac's proprietary nature, and it's enough to make me not want one, but from an average non-tech user, having limited hardware support removes a great deal of potential pitfalls for end users.  Macs have a great deal of "just works", and barring some software that you're strictly dependent on, is a great choice for non-tech people.


(and yes, I've worked with end users plenty.  My current job is strictly tech, but my last 3 had a very heavy focus on end-user).

[westkoast]

I agree with WOW in the sense that no matter who's fault it is, to the average user its Linux's fault.  Which really hurts Linux as far as people migrating to it as their primary OS.  We all know how it goes with computers.  The linux box could do 90 things perfect like surf the web, produce spread sheets, play mp3s, sync with your ipod, look flashy like Leopard does, etc etc (All of which mine does btw).  If it does ONE thing wrong, like a scanner not working like it did in windows, then people are turned off to it.
 
The other issue is that everyone knows a guy  who knows his way around Windows enough to help with a number of problems.  The same can't be said for linux.  DB may remember the days of Redhat 5.2 (the first attempt I had at using Linux) when there was not even a fraction of support online or otherwise that there is now.  The community and the support part have come a long way.  As more and more people get into it, it gets better.

I have faith in Spursx3 though.  If he can snipe guys in COD4 on the XBOX360 he should be able to figure out how to load restricted drivers in Ubuntu.

[WayOutWest]

I'm not arguing end result.  I understand the frustrations of the end user.  I'm not arguing that Linux should is ready for the mainstream (in fact, I've argued against using it on this very message board).  I'm talking about culpability and where to place the blame for the frustrating user experience.  I agree with the problems, I don't agree on who's fault the problems are. 

I'm not saying who's fault the problem belongs to, I'm saying who will be blamed.  I think Ubuntu is ready to go mainstream, it just needs that little push and Dell might be making that push.  With all the problems encountered by Vista users they started offering XP again, their track record was to be part of the Evil Empire and force the lastest OS on thier latest PC's pre-installed, mess with that at your own risk.  They even go as far as putting "Made for Windows XXX" stickers on their PC.  Now Dell is selling Ubuntu laptops, I have not seen/used one BUT if they offer/ship their "Resource CD" with those Ubuntu laptops then the gap between Windows and Ubuntu is closed.  The resource CD and pre-installed application is dumbed down enough for the average user to understand or be walked through with minimal suppport.  That type of VAR support will start to draw OEM's into the non-Windows market.

The bottom line is that the linux kernel recognizes and works with far more hardware than the windows kernel, and Ubuntu does a great job of managing drivers which are written for linux.  Comments like "clearly ubuntu is not intuitive enough" is not deserved.  In fact, Ubuntu's approach to handling the installation of drivers is infinitely more intuitive than windows approach of handling drivers (don't confuse OEM packaged CD's with something the Windows OS natively does).  Are there problems?  Yup.  Are the problems a lack of intuitiveness from Ubuntu/Linux?  Nope.  It's from a lack of hardware support by hardware vendors (primarily wireless cards).

You are arguing over specifics, which I do not disagree with, not about the overal Windows "experience".  The Windows experience is enhanced by all the VAR and OEM support.  It seems that VAR's are stepping up to the Ubuntu plate and the OEM might follow.  As far as walking up to a Linux machine and using it, I agree it is intuitive, but setting it up is not.  I do not agree that dealing with drivers and network settings, i.e. the equivalent of the Windows Control Panel and Device Manager which I beleive is TOTALLY UNintuitive, is not intuitive.

Agreed on problems, disagree on who's to blame.

I'm not arguing who's to blame or who deserves the blame, I am telling you who will get the blame.

BTW, you made a comment that "non tech people shouldn't use a non-windows OS", which I don't agree with at all.  I don't like Mac's proprietary nature, and it's enough to make me not want one, but from an average non-tech user, having limited hardware support removes a great deal of potential pitfalls for end users.  Macs have a great deal of "just works", and barring some software that you're strictly dependent on, is a great choice for non-tech people.


(and yes, I've worked with end users plenty.  My current job is strictly tech, but my last 3 had a very heavy focus on end-user).

I thought I mentioned Macs (must have been in another thread), but I agree they are extreemely intuitive, Steve Jobs should thank Xerox in his daily prayers.  My kids walk up to makes all the time and get going with zero learning curve (might be a kid thing but I think it's more of a Mac thing).  The problem I have with Macs is not the problem your average user has, your average users has ZERO problems with a Mac.  Being a tech guy, actually it's more of a programmer's mindset, I don't like how limited the interface is on a Mac.  I want to have the ability to control, or at the least view, all the aspects of a computer.  The problem is a Mac manages it self so well that you don't need an IS person to keep it running.  Mac's are so good and solid that it makes me uncomfortable.   

[SPURSX3]

I've got many people into Ubuntu and they did not have the same issues.  So I guess you can say its down the middle depending on your hardware.  In fact a friend of mine who I got into Ubuntu called me just two days ago because he recently got a wireless router in his new place.  I was thinking 'This better not be a headache' and to my surprise, it wasn't.  At all.  Ubuntu found the wireless card, connected up, hit the web, all good to go.

As far as basic users, using it.  I let my friends use it when they come over and I am on my laptop.  They navigate fine once I show them where Firefox is.

I switched back to XP for the time being, just until I can find some actual - easy to read - info on what wireless options UBUNTU can pick up and go with - prefer to avoid using ndiswrapper, but I would If I need to I guess - the problem I had it that my dynex has NO support for linux out there, not even a generic that can be used, I was also going to try Knoppix to see if that worked but what I have read so far says ndiswrapper is used on knoppix also so if that's the case it won't even matter because ndiswrapper does not have dynex supprt.  I tried researching which usb or pci cards might be great with linux, but I get a lot of chipset info - I don't want to go hunting for chipset while searching for the wireless, I just want to know the brand, model, where to buy....

 

[WayOutWest]

I switched back to XP for the time being, just until I can find some actual - easy to read - info on what wireless options UBUNTU can pick up and go with - prefer to avoid using ndiswrapper, but I would If I need to I guess - the problem I had it that my dynex has NO support for linux out there, not even a generic that can be used, I was also going to try Knoppix to see if that worked but what I have read so far says ndiswrapper is used on knoppix also so if that's the case it won't even matter because ndiswrapper does not have dynex supprt.  I tried researching which usb or pci cards might be great with linux, but I get a lot of chipset info - I don't want to go hunting for chipset while searching for the wireless, I just want to know the brand, model, where to buy....

Exactly!  Then again I won't hold it against Linux that a Spurs fan couldn't get it to work.   

The other option you would go with is a wireless access point.  That was not an option for me cause I was trying to get a laptop to work.  I will attempt getting a non-XP supported Dell server connected to a wireless access point to work with Ubuntu this weekend and I'll let you know how it goes.  I may end up buying an Ubuntu supported nic/video/sound card, then again if I do that I might as well go with XP.  Hmm......

[SPURSX3]

I switched back to XP for the time being, just until I can find some actual - easy to read - info on what wireless options UBUNTU can pick up and go with - prefer to avoid using ndiswrapper, but I would If I need to I guess - the problem I had it that my dynex has NO support for linux out there, not even a generic that can be used, I was also going to try Knoppix to see if that worked but what I have read so far says ndiswrapper is used on knoppix also so if that's the case it won't even matter because ndiswrapper does not have dynex supprt.  I tried researching which usb or pci cards might be great with linux, but I get a lot of chipset info - I don't want to go hunting for chipset while searching for the wireless, I just want to know the brand, model, where to buy....

Exactly!  Then again I won't hold it against Linux that a Spurs fan couldn't get it to work.   

The other option you would go with is a wireless access point.  That was not an option for me cause I was trying to get a laptop to work.  I will attempt getting a non-XP supported Dell server connected to a wireless access point to work with Ubuntu this weekend and I'll let you know how it goes.  I may end up buying an Ubuntu supported nic/video/sound card, then again if I do that I might as well go with XP.  Hmm......

My problem was not being able to get Ubuntu running, it works great.  The xp drivers SYS and INF files are not supported by ndiswrapper to pick up my usb at all.  I gotta have more time to find a decent wireless option for it and then reinstall.

[WayOutWest]

My problem was not being able to get Ubuntu running, it works great.  The xp drivers SYS and INF files are not supported by ndiswrapper to pick up my usb at all.  I gotta have more time to find a decent wireless option for it and then reinstall.

You don't like the idea of a wireless access point?

[SPURSX3]

My problem was not being able to get Ubuntu running, it works great.  The xp drivers SYS and INF files are not supported by ndiswrapper to pick up my usb at all.  I gotta have more time to find a decent wireless option for it and then reinstall.

You don't like the idea of a wireless access point?

ok found this had some good reviews for working with linux right out of the box...not just on newegg, but several sites:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833156165&Tpk=trendnet%20tew-443pi

also burned Knopix and Sidux to disk and ran them live...I like them both - knopix has more bells and whistles right of the install, more wireless connection options as well.  and I burned Sidux because I read it was made for my amd 64.  ran built in wireless program and i was online in like 2 minutes, set the ssid and key and that was it...if I ever decide to chuck vista off my laptop I may just have to go with this one.  I also read that Ubuntu will have version 8.10 out next month and it is supposed to have several wireless and mobile options available, it will be interesting to see how that turns out.  wouldn't be surprised to see all the tools that sidux has on the next ubuntu.

[SPURSX3]

The pci worked right out of the box on ubuntu, getting it updated right now...it will be fun to get to know linux...

[westkoast]

The pci worked right out of the box on ubuntu, getting it updated right now...it will be fun to get to know linux...

First run what do you think?

Linux guys don't tend to like Ubuntu very much for reasons mentioned by db, such as bloated kernel, but I think it's a good transition OS between Windows and Linux.  It is easy enough for you to get around to do what you need to do while at the same time giving you the chance to learn about Linux slowly.