Phil says best athlete was Rodman

[Ted]

I believe Jackson may have said that, but I think he's either wrong, or the definition of "athlete" he chooses is far too narrow.

Foot speed, hand-eye coordination, body control (on the ground and in mid-air), leaping ability, strength, endurance, stopping and starting speed, ability to change direction . . . when you take all of these things into account, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Scottie Pippen should be named ahead of Rodman on that list.

Rodman was great, no doubt. He was an amazing defender, but so were the other three. He was definitely used his athletic skills to be the best rebounder of the bunch, but why couldn't he apply those skills to offense (outside of rebounding). There's just no way . . . IMO, a silly comment by PJ.

[Lurker]

Reality, 

Athlete:  One who is able-bodied, acrobatic, agonistic, energetic, gymnastic, pancratic, robust, stalwart, strong, vigorous, and vital.  A physical freak of nature.

Did you notice how it didn't say skillful, smart, intelligent, patient, etc.

Bolded acrobatic and gymnastic, no way is Rods in the same catagorie as Jordan etc.

You are right...Rodman was more acrobatic than Jordan and thus in a different category.  But then a box score reader would never understand that acrobatic means more than just flying through the air to dunk.

Rodman could jump, hit the floor and rejump faster than Jordan.

Rodman has amazing hand speed...watch videos of him poking the ball away from other players.

Rodman had great stamina as Skander already aluded to.

Rodman's downfall in this argument of yours is that you just can't accept that fact.

When Rodman was with the Spurs before you jumped on board it was widely reported that many players thought he was an amazing athlete.  But since I don't have access to newpaper, radio and television archives I couldn't prove it any more than you can prove your statements.

At least the others here have tried to give examples but your argument is the same: "No way he was better than Jordan".  So now back it up Reality.  Give soem examples.  Find a definition of "athlete" that includes sports IQ.  Do something other than repeat the same nonsensical phrase.






But then I suspect that Reality has sold out of Laker juice and is bored at the unemployment office.  So he hops on his blackberry and well...you all know the rest of the story.

[Reality]

I believe Jackson may have said that, but I think he's either wrong, or the definition of "athlete" he chooses is far too narrow.

Foot speed, hand-eye coordination, body control (on the ground and in mid-air), leaping ability, strength, endurance, stopping and starting speed, ability to change direction . . . when you take all of these things into account, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Scottie Pippen should be named ahead of Rodman on that list.

Rodman was great, no doubt. He was an amazing defender, but so were the other three. He was definitely used his athletic skills to be the best rebounder of the bunch, but why couldn't he apply those skills to offense (outside of rebounding). There's just no way . . . IMO, a silly comment by PJ.

Thank you Ted.
Yeah seems it's just Phil J attention whoring again.

[Ted]

I'm a big Rodman fan. But he's the rare two-dimensional player who is NOT underrated these days. It feels like people are taking his greatness in two aspects (atheticism and determination) and using them to equate him with three of the greatest athletes to ever set foot on a basketball court. (How lucky has PJ been!?)

There are many, many things that Jordan, Bryant, or Pippen could do that Rodman was physically incapable of doing. There are several things Rodman could do that the other three would not be able to do; e.g., guard Shaquille O'Neal for any period of time, out-rebound or defend an above-average NBA big man (although Pippen was known to do it from time to time--Charles Smith), and uh . . . can't think of another.

[westkoast]

I believe Jackson may have said that, but I think he's either wrong, or the definition of "athlete" he chooses is far too narrow.

Foot speed, hand-eye coordination, body control (on the ground and in mid-air), leaping ability, strength, endurance, stopping and starting speed, ability to change direction . . . when you take all of these things into account, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Scottie Pippen should be named ahead of Rodman on that list.

Rodman was great, no doubt. He was an amazing defender, but so were the other three. He was definitely used his athletic skills to be the best rebounder of the bunch, but why couldn't he apply those skills to offense (outside of rebounding). There's just no way . . . IMO, a silly comment by PJ.

Thank you Ted.
Yeah seems it's just Phil J attention whoring again.

Of course because nothing gets you more attention then talking about a basketball player who's been out of the league for 8 years and spends most of his time in Orange County hitting on people's girlfriends at The Chronic Cantina.

[WayOutWest]

He was definitely used his athletic skills to be the best rebounder of the bunch, but why couldn't he apply those skills to offense (outside of rebounding). There's just no way . . . IMO, a silly comment by PJ.

First off Ted, WTF kind of sentence was that?  I am sorry to read that you do not understand the difference between "athletic ability" and "skill".  Heck you even use the word "skill" and it doesn't hit you in the face that you missed the point.  If Rodman NEVER got off the bench for PJ he COULD still be the best athlete PJ ever coached.  We are NOT TALKING ABOUT SKILLS.  I think Lurker hit the mark better than the rest of us.  

[WayOutWest]

I'm a big Rodman fan. But he's the rare two-dimensional player who is NOT underrated these days. It feels like people are taking his greatness in two aspects (atheticism and determination) and using them to equate him with three of the greatest athletes to ever set foot on a basketball court. (How lucky has PJ been!?)

There are many, many things that Jordan, Bryant, or Pippen could do that Rodman was physically incapable of doing. There are several things Rodman could do that the other three would not be able to do; e.g., guard Shaquille O'Neal for any period of time, out-rebound or defend an above-average NBA big man (although Pippen was known to do it from time to time--Charles Smith), and uh . . . can't think of another.

Again Ted, step back and try understand the difference between "athletic ability" and "skills".  You are confusing the two and blending them together.  You are now bringing in a third element "determination" i.e. the "mental" part of the game to further cloud your opinion.  Why is this so hard for you to understand Ted? 

[Ted]

First off Ted, WTF kind of sentence was that?  I am sorry to read that you do not understand the difference between "athletic ability" and "skill".  Heck you even use the word "skill" and it doesn't hit you in the face that you missed the point.  If Rodman NEVER got off the bench for PJ he COULD still be the best athlete PJ ever coached.  We are NOT TALKING ABOUT SKILLS.  I think Lurker hit the mark better than the rest of us.  

Okay Professor Strunk, switch the word "ability" in for every instance of "skill" and then suck it you pedantic semantic romantic.

[WayOutWest]

Okay Professor Strunk, switch the word "ability" in for every instance of "skill" and then suck it you pedantic semantic romantic.

IMO:
skill = rebound, defense, offense (those three groups include things like foot work, dribbling, shooting, positioning etc..)
athletic = strength, speed, agility

Lurker used a very good example in jumping.  You can be tought to jump higher/further than someone who is more athletic than you if you develop good technique and the other person does not.  But Lurker posted that Rodman could jump, hit the floor and jump again faster than MJ.  That's different than saying Rodman could jump higher or farther than MJ cause that could bring skill into the equation.  But just being able to jump at a faster rate is about reaction time, agility and speed not about a skill that you have to learn.

P.S. Just look at who is on the other side of this argument and who is on YOUR side of the argument, that should, in of itself, end the discussion right there.

[Reality]

But Lurker posted that Rodman could jump, hit the floor and jump again faster than MJ.  That's different than saying Rodman could jump higher or farther than MJ cause that could bring skill into the equation.  But just being able to jump at a faster rate is about reaction time, agility and speed not about a skill that you have to learn.

P.S. Just look at who is on the other side of this argument and who is on YOUR side of the argument, that should, in of itself, end the discussion right there.

Yeah Ted.  Rodman could jump, hit the floor and jump again faster then MJ.  That should end the argument right there. 

[Ted]

I'm a big Rodman fan. But he's the rare two-dimensional player who is NOT underrated these days. It feels like people are taking his greatness in two aspects (atheticism and determination) and using them to equate him with three of the greatest athletes to ever set foot on a basketball court. (How lucky has PJ been!?)

There are many, many things that Jordan, Bryant, or Pippen could do that Rodman was physically incapable of doing. There are several things Rodman could do that the other three would not be able to do; e.g., guard Shaquille O'Neal for any period of time, out-rebound or defend an above-average NBA big man (although Pippen was known to do it from time to time--Charles Smith), and uh . . . can't think of another.

Again Ted, step back and try understand the difference between "athletic ability" and "skills".  You are confusing the two and blending them together.  You are now bringing in a third element "determination" i.e. the "mental" part of the game to further cloud your opinion.  Why is this so hard for you to understand Ted? 

Rodman was a great athlete, and he used his natural athletic ABILITY (did you see that WoW!? I used the word "ability" instead of "skill"! Did ya see? Did ya see?) to become great at a few things. Now that we've established that I can say "athletic ability" and not mean the same thing as "athletic skill" . . .   . . . Let's move on.

As as an athlete, Rodman didn't have the hand-eye coordination to dribble the ball . . . or . . . let's see . . . the ability to combine hand-eye coordination with the quickness in his first step to make a dribble drive to the basket.

Bringing Rodman's unmatched determination does not alter my point, which is, Rodman was an above average athlete. But his true greatness was his mental strength, IMO. Rodman would go up against a similar, or even superior, physical athlete like Karl Malone, and would simply out work him. Not because he was stronger, or faster, or had faster hands, or could jump higher, but because he was mentally stronger. I believe even his impressive stamina is due in large part to, that's right, determination.

So, when I say this:

"It feels like people are taking his greatness in two aspects (atheticism and determination) and using them to equate him with three of the greatest athletes to ever set foot on a basketball court."

I should probably have listed determination in front of athleticism.

[Ted]

Okay Professor Strunk, switch the word "ability" in for every instance of "skill" and then suck it you pedantic semantic romantic.

IMO:
skill = rebound, defense, offense (those three groups include things like foot work, dribbling, shooting, positioning etc..)
athletic = strength, speed, agility

Lurker used a very good example in jumping.  You can be tought to jump higher/further than someone who is more athletic than you if you develop good technique and the other person does not.  But Lurker posted that Rodman could jump, hit the floor and jump again faster than MJ.  That's different than saying Rodman could jump higher or farther than MJ cause that could bring skill into the equation.  But just being able to jump at a faster rate is about reaction time, agility and speed not about a skill that you have to learn.

P.S. Just look at who is on the other side of this argument and who is on YOUR side of the argument, that should, in of itself, end the discussion right there.

You are not WayOutWest. You cannot be WayOutWest. Let me get this straight.

Jordan could jump farther and higher with more body control than Rodman, but that was because he had mastered the SKILL of jumping better than Rodman?
But Rodman could jump, hit the floor, and jump again faster because he was the better athlete. So, one type of jumping is a skill, and another is an ability?

So when Kobe Bryant jumps from ten feet away and slams it home while taking a hit from a defender, does he accomplish this feat because he has spent hours in the gym perfecting the angle of his plant foot and raising his arms at the perfect moment for just the right amount of upward momentum while holding his body in just the perfect angle and trajectory to absorb the contact from the obstacle hurtling at him through space? (Now that's a FUBARed sentence!) I wonder what his coach used to simulate the contact? Do you think they just threw a big bean bag at him? Or did they use a live sparring partner?

I wonder how Pippen decided whether to use a a one-foot or two-footed take off? And when he did use a two-footed take off, did he employ the traditional Cousyian theory of having the dominant leg planted two inches forward of the weak leg with the toe pointed outward at a 12 degree angle? Or did he employ the more modern Thompson method of toes perfectly lined up, perfectly straight? Hmm, these are the questions we must ask when we try to understand how one man leapeth, and another merely skippeth.

I call for a vote on the 1st fundamental Basketball Law of Thermodynamics: One cannot perform any SKILL in the game of basketball without employing an athletic ABILITY to do so.

P.S. The fact that Reality agrees with me caused me no angst. And using the fact that he agrees with me as an argument against my point is mere laziness. And you, at least, are better than that.

[Ted]

Yeah seems it's just Phil J attention whoring again.

I didn't say that. It just seems a silly thing to say.

[WayOutWest]

Rodman was a great athlete, and he used his natural athletic ABILITY (did you see that WoW!? I used the word "ability" instead of "skill"! Did ya see? Did ya see?) to become great at a few things. Now that we've established that I can say "athletic ability" and not mean the same thing as "athletic skill" . . .   . . . Let's move on.

Jesus H Effing Christ!  "to become great at a few things"  Fugg, "a few things" = skill!  Frak it!

As as an athlete, Rodman didn't have the hand-eye coordination to dribble the ball . . . or . . . let's see . . . the ability to combine hand-eye coordination with the quickness in his first step to make a dribble drive to the basket.

Jesus H Effing Christ!  "...make a dribble drive..."  Frak it!

Bringing Rodman's unmatched determination does not alter my point, which is, Rodman was an above average athlete. But his true greatness was his mental strength, IMO. Rodman would go up against a similar, or even superior, physical athlete like Karl Malone, and would simply out work him. Not because he was stronger, or faster, or had faster hands, or could jump higher, but because he was mentally stronger. I believe even his impressive stamina is due in large part to, that's right, determination.

Again, like I stated before, if Rodman NEVER got off the bench, he would be considered a great athlete, his accomplishments on the court have NOTHING to do with his athletic ability.

So, when I say this:

"It feels like people are taking his greatness in two aspects (atheticism and determination) and using them to equate him with three of the greatest athletes to ever set foot on a basketball court."

I should probably have listed determination in front of athleticism.

Fugging aye!  You continue to get sucked into the line of thinking that Rodman is being compared to MJ as a basketball player.  THAT IS NOT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD.  If we were to be arguing about who is taller, Rodman or MJ, it would be pretty obvious who was right in that argument.  Basically we are arguing about that and a few other PHYSICAL attributes, NO SKILLS.  You take a few attributes and try to meld them together to accomplish a task it becomes a skill (i.e. hand eye coordition to dribble = SKILL!).  I guess you don't play much basketball, dribbling is clearly a skill.  If Steve Nash and I were to have a nose touching contest, I could probably beat him or at a minimum tie him, but if you asked us to have a dribbling contest he would kill me because dribbling is a SKILL (kill me to death!  I kid you not someone said that to me once).

I am now convinced you are just fugging around because this is just stupid.  I tip my hat to a true "Master Baiter".  Please say you're fugging around cause I know YOU are not stupid Ted.

[Ted]

Yeah Ted.  Rodman could jump, hit the floor and jump again faster then MJ.  That should end the argument right there. 

Yeah, and Jordan could jump higher and farther because he had mastered the technique of that particular kind of jumping SKILL.

I'm starting to get it.

Well guys. Have a good evening! I'm off to the gym to the jump instructor. If I had only known that dunking the basketball at 6'2" 230 was just a few jump classes away! I am so going to dunk over that jerk with the goatee at the YMCA. He will totally pit his shants when he sees my jiggling belly coming at him from above.