Paul Pierce weighs in on GNob, Kobster

[jemagee]

LOL, and as a philli sports fan that makes you an authority somehow??  OK, TWO mvp for Nash, Manu has more title - worldwide, mind you, than Nash could hope to gain.  Like I said He is DAM good, but how do you NOT take accomplishments into account?  OMG, It's like saying Malone was the best PF in History - Damn good! but not the best.   

Because, if the MVP award determines the best player in the league, then wouldn't michael jordan have won it EVERY DAMN YEAR after his ascendancy?  Whoever won MVP it was still recognized that the best player in the game was Michael Jordan.

The MVP is not an award for the best player, i wouldn't use Nash's mvp awards to indicate he's one of the best point guards any more than i'd say well steve nash has 2 mvps and kobe only has one, steve nash is better...do you think steve nash is a better player than kobe bryant?  I mean he does have more MVPs...

Again, I'm not sure I care about ginoblis titles or performance outside the NBA, because the level of competition overall is lower, and Pierce said NBA, so why does it matter what ginobli accomplished in europe.

And no offense to ginboli, but he's playing with one of the best PF of our time (if not all time) and a pretty damn good point guard...again you seem to be crediting ginboli solely for all those titles the teams he was on won, but it's not just ginobli.

I can take accomplishments into account and ignore meaningless post season awards at the same time, it's rather simple.

[SPURSX3]

LOL, and as a philli sports fan that makes you an authority somehow??  OK, TWO mvp for Nash, Manu has more title - worldwide, mind you, than Nash could hope to gain.  Like I said He is DAM good, but how do you NOT take accomplishments into account?  OMG, It's like saying Malone was the best PF in History - Damn good! but not the best.   

Because, if the MVP award determines the best player in the league, then wouldn't michael jordan have won it EVERY DAMN YEAR after his ascendancy?  Whoever won MVP it was still recognized that the best player in the game was Michael Jordan.

The MVP is not an award for the best player, i wouldn't use Nash's mvp awards to indicate he's one of the best point guards any more than i'd say well steve nash has 2 mvps and kobe only has one, steve nash is better...do you think steve nash is a better player than kobe bryant?  I mean he does have more MVPs...

Again, I'm not sure I care about ginoblis titles or performance outside the NBA, because the level of competition overall is lower, and Pierce said NBA, so why does it matter what ginobli accomplished in europe.

And no offense to ginboli, but he's playing with one of the best PF of our time (if not all time) and a pretty damn good point guard...again you seem to be crediting ginboli solely for all those titles the teams he was on won, but it's not just ginobli.

I can take accomplishments into account and ignore meaningless post season awards at the same time, it's rather simple.

It is simple.  You are wrong.

I don't have a problem with Nash, just the hating on Manu, The Spurs drafted this kid and watched him explode over seas, since coming to our team we could NOT have won titles without him, TD is Fantastic, but as a fan I have seen Manu come thru several times to carry us over the hump when Tim and Tony couldn't.  When media refers to a teams "Big Three" let's just remember that a REAL big three in the last few years has been the Spurs "Big Three."  Manu is a big part of the picture, and a big reason we have continued to win.

[jemagee]

I'm hating on Manu Ginobli because I don't think he's the best european player in the history of the NBA?  Nonsense, it's a matter of opinion and you haven't presented a darn thing to sway my opinion...not to mention it sounds like you have a little personal bias and investment yourself in 'promoting' manu so your man(u)-love clouds your rational judgement.

At least come at me with statistics as a way to compare different players as opposed to meaningless awards and TEAM titles...indvidual performance comparisons at least is a start.

You have never won anything in the NBA, the San ANtonio Spurs have won titles, you have won nothing.

[SPURSX3]

p.s., the statement was not is Manu the best EVER to play basketball, so while you disregard his accomplishments to that statement, you seem to be reacting as if the comment was declaring him the best to ever play the game.  You mention 1 player that could carry the team by himself.  Kobe couldn't, Jordan - IMO the best to ever play- still couldn't without his little scottie right there with him, Magic couldn't.  So while Manu plays his part on our squad, he is essential to us winning more titles.  Yes, his credentials carry weight, just because you refuse to acknowledge does not take away he has done what several other non-US   players have not done in their careers.

[SPURSX3]

I'm hating on Manu Ginobli because I don't think he's the best european player in the history of the NBA?  Nonsense, it's a matter of opinion and you haven't presented a darn thing to sway my opinion...not to mention it sounds like you have a little personal bias and investment yourself in 'promoting' manu so your man(u)-love clouds your rational judgement.

At least come at me with statistics as a way to compare different players as opposed to meaningless awards and TEAM titles...indvidual performance comparisons at least is a start.

You have never won anything in the NBA, the San ANtonio Spurs have won titles, you have won nothing.

Wow, I didn't realize I had not won anything - oh man!!  .  I have every right to state my opinion on the subject, It sounds to me as if you can't stand to be wrong.  If you want stats there is any number of other mbrs on this board that can provide that for you.  I have stated the obvious and that is my reason for supporting Manu and is why my opinion is he is the best foreign player.  It does not get any simpler than that.  Deal with it. 

[jemagee]

I can stand to be wrong when i'm proven wrong...you haven't presented any evidence to convince me that Manu Ginobli is the best foreign born player in the history of the NBA...as far as I'm concerned...prove me wrong and I'll admit it, be restating the same thing over and over isn't proof.

You're the one making the argument, if you want me to believe you're right, support your argument with facts and numbers, that's how it works, this isn't presidential politics where you cna just say something over and over and make it right.  My opinion is that Manu isn't the best foriegn born NBA player ever, yours seems to be that he is...it seems that your constant need to tell me I'm wrong indicates you might have the problem with being wrong? 

You've stated your opinion and I've told you why I think the 'facts' you are using to support your opinion are invalid, repeating them over and over won't make me find them more valid.

As for disregarding the statement, maybe go back and read what pierce said regarding the history of the NBA...I never compared Ginobli to Jordan, I used jordan as an example as why i find spouting off on (non NBA) awards is non supportive of an argument.

You're the one who seems unable to deal with the fact that I disagree with you...but yet you still can't come up with any new points to support your arrgument, it's the same sutff over and over....and it's a pet peeve of mine when fans start saying 'we' like they are part of the team, it demonstrates to me a little disconnect from reality.

[jemagee]

PS...as far as i'm concerned, who the 'best' is at any one time is not a provable fact, it's not provable, so why do you have to be right?  That's what i'm curios about....you think manu is the best ever foreign born player, I don't...i have no problem being wrong....why do you have to be right though?

It's a circular discussion right now since you keep bringing up the same points, if you come up with new ones, i'd be more than happy to listen to them.

[SPURSX3]

I can stand to be wrong when i'm proven wrong...you haven't presented any evidence to convince me that Manu Ginobli is the best foreign born player in the history of the NBA...as far as I'm concerned...prove me wrong and I'll admit it, be restating the same thing over and over isn't proof.

You're the one making the argument, if you want me to believe you're right, support your argument with facts and numbers, that's how it works, this isn't presidential politics where you cna just say something over and over and make it right.  My opinion is that Manu isn't the best foriegn born NBA player ever, yours seems to be that he is...it seems that your constant need to tell me I'm wrong indicates you might have the problem with being wrong? 

You've stated your opinion and I've told you why I think the 'facts' you are using to support your opinion are invalid, repeating them over and over won't make me find them more valid.

As for disregarding the statement, maybe go back and read what pierce said regarding the history of the NBA...I never compared Ginobli to Jordan, I used jordan as an example as why i find spouting off on (non NBA) awards is non supportive of an argument.

You're the one who seems unable to deal with the fact that I disagree with you...but yet you still can't come up with any new points to support your arrgument, it's the same sutff over and over....and it's a pet peeve of mine when fans start saying 'we' like they are part of the team, it demonstrates to me a little disconnect from reality.

I am sorry, but your "facts" section of this conversation was by stating Nash has two MVP titles and yet you disregard Manu accomplishements because they are from overseas, and you said his sixth man award was bogus - did I miss something?  Contrary to what yuo are saying I am not trying to persuade you or win an arguement - the "fact" that you're wrong is clear in that you have actually stated FACTS, except that you could possibly consider Nash if MVP was a factor but then disregard Manu's title.  Ask Nash which he would rather have - I think he would say he would rather have the title.  

[SPURSX3]

PS...as far as i'm concerned, who the 'best' is at any one time is not a provable fact, it's not provable, so why do you have to be right?  That's what i'm curios about....you think manu is the best ever foreign born player, I don't...i have no problem being wrong....why do you have to be right though?

It's a circular discussion right now since you keep bringing up the same points, if you come up with new ones, i'd be more than happy to listen to them.

LMFAO!!  whatever Reality.

[WayOutWest]

I think we need to clearly define "foreign" player.  Born outside the US or no US college.

Foreign born but US college (In that order although I'd have a hard time arguing against TD being the GOAT):
Olajuwon - "Dream" Nuff said
Duncan - Amazing franchise carying player, greatest PF of all time, arguably top 10 center of all time.
Nash - What can you say about this guy that hasn't been said already?  This guy was in the top 5 OVERALL dicussion for a few years.  Nash was a top 5 talent without any of the physical gifts that the other guys in this discussion enjoy (size, speed, jumping ability, etc...).  Granted he did not stay at this level for very long, still an amazing acomplishment for guy like him.

Ewing - One of the greatest centers of all time despite never winning an NBA title.  Size, speed, mobility and great fundamentals for a big man.  This guy just had the misfortune of comming into the league durring MJ's dominance and never really have the talent around him to compete.


Foreign born and no US college

Sabonis - NO CONTEST, anyone who saw this guy play in his prime knows this guy was a top 5 to 10 center off all time.  Not one single player in this catagory could dominate BOTH ends of the court.  Only a tiny fraction of foreign players know how to spell defense yet this guy intimidated guys like David Robinson.  Just imagine Shaq's power, Ewings mobility and footwork and TD's shooting range, that was Sabonis.  IMO nobody comes close.

Dirk - Amazing talent, matchup nightmare, solid rebounder and practically unlimited offensively.  One of the rarest combo's of size and skill ever seen in the NBA.

Manu - Excellent offensive talent, very smart player and a very good closer offensively.  The guy is very difficult to defend because of his unorthodox style of play and physical movement plus he has a ton of savy that routinely crosses over into "drama" territory but unfortunately that is part of the NBA game today.

Drazen Petrovich - Actually more talented and skilled than Manu but he did not really get the chance to shine like Manu because he was burried on the bench early in his NBA carrer.  The NBA got a glimpse of his talent in NJ but then the guy died in a car accident or something.

AK - I think we all know about AK.

Sariunus Marcelonous (I have no clue how to spell his name) - Played alot like Drazen but with better ball control and size.  He did well in GS (I think) under Nelson.  Very much a gunner.

Tony Kucok (SIC?) - I think we all know about his talent.

Oscar Schmidt - One of the greatest, if not THE greatest, b-ball shooters to ever live.  He couldn't gaurd me on a basketball court but there has never been as prolific a jumpshooter in the history of the foreign game, there are only a handfull of jumpshooters in all NBA history that could match this guy shot for shot.

Overall I'd rank them like this:

Olajuwon
Duncan
Sabonis
Nash
Ewing
Dirk
Manu
Drazen Petrovich
AK
Sariunus Marcelonous
Tony Kucok
Oscar Schmidt

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[WayOutWest]

One other thing, the translation was correct, Paul does think he is better than Kobe.  Pual is an idiot.

[SPURSX3]

One other thing, the translation was correct, Paul does think he is better than Kobe.  Pual is an idiot.

You know, I totally forgot about "The Dream" - TD and Ewing, hard for me to remember not from the US.  I still think Manu himself is damn impressive whether you like his flop or not, it reminds me of Sir Charles leaning in on the jump shot and drawing the foul because he fell on somebody while he was shooting, it's a pain - but it's the sign of a smart player who wants to win.

[WayOutWest]

One other thing, the translation was correct, Paul does think he is better than Kobe.  Pual is an idiot.

You know, I totally forgot about "The Dream" - TD and Ewing, hard for me to remember not from the US.  I still think Manu himself is damn impressive whether you like his flop or not, it reminds me of Sir Charles leaning in on the jump shot and drawing the foul because he fell on somebody while he was shooting, it's a pain - but it's the sign of a smart player who wants to win.

99% of NBA players use that savy/drama in the game today, did not mean to single him out it's just that there is a small percentage that overdoes it like Manu and Cassel.

[SPURSX3]

One other thing, the translation was correct, Paul does think he is better than Kobe.  Pual is an idiot.

You know, I totally forgot about "The Dream" - TD and Ewing, hard for me to remember not from the US.  I still think Manu himself is damn impressive whether you like his flop or not, it reminds me of Sir Charles leaning in on the jump shot and drawing the foul because he fell on somebody while he was shooting, it's a pain - but it's the sign of a smart player who wants to win.

99% of NBA players use that savy/drama in the game today, did not mean to single him out it's just that there is a small percentage that overdoes it like Manu and Cassel.

I didn't take it as being singled out..no prob.

As for Paul, yes, he is an idiot.  I don't thin the Spurs will compete in the finals next year the way our offseason moves are going, but if LA could land one more good player I would say that Boston could be "one and done."

[WayOutWest]

As for Paul, yes, he is an idiot.  I don't thin the Spurs will compete in the finals next year the way our offseason moves are going, but if LA could land one more good player I would say that Boston could be "one and done."

I honestly believe that if the Lakers can come back healthy they will have no problem with the Celtics if they were to meet in the finals.  All the Lakers need is for Ariza and Bynum to come back healthy and they will have a superior team to the Celtics.  Someone guarding Pierce, other than Kobe, was sorely needed, Ariza provides that facet.  Allowing Gasol to play PF and not get roughed up by the centers in the NBA, ala Duncan, would greatly benefit the Lakers.  Bynum provides that and will have no problem dealing with the likes of Perkins and allow Gasol to matchup with KG.  KG should present no problem offensively for Gasol and allows Gasol to play KG a bit more tightly because he has a shot blocker behind him at the rim.  I would also be happy to allow KG to remain a jumpshooter, Gasol did an excellent job on KG in all but one game.