Author Topic: Brand?  (Read 82053 times)

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2008, 02:23:45 PM »
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Okay, I said that the Sixers need to focus on offensive efficiency and o-boarding and don't need the 3, and DBods asked for an example, not you.  My fault.  But that is an example of a team that really won without hitting the 3

We're really not comparable though.  They did hit the 3.  2 of their 5 starting positions were above NBA average 3 point shooters.  They didn't take all that many 3's, but their floor spacing was there.  I don't think you can really dispute that they were much better in that vein than we were.

(they shot 34.4% from 3, which was just below the league average of 34.7%.  We shot 31%, which is well below the league average of 36%.)

In the end, they had 3 guys in their starting lineup (Billups, Prince, Sheed) that their man couldn't leave to double team because they were a threat to knock down the J.  We don't have that.  Andre Miller being able to hit a 16' jump shot doesn't prevent his man from doubling down on Brand in the post, or on doubling Iguodala on a drive.  Floor spacing is a huge issue.

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I'll simply point out that we won 2 games last year in the playoffs

And I'll point out that we were a sub .500 team in a very mediocre eastern conference.  We're not one piece away from contending.

While they shot well getting there, they certainly didn't win because of their 3 point shooting.  Let's just agree to disagree on this, because we're obviously not going to convince each other of the contrary.  As a side note, a friend I'm talking to about this submits that neither the Jordan-era Bulls nor the 2006 Heat had any above average 3 point shooters.  Not saying anybody on our team is anywhere near Jordan level, nor Wade/Shaq level, just saying that not every great team had 3 point shooters.

As for the second part, I think the record was extremely misleading.  This team obviously played better after their nice little 15 game losing streak or whatever it was.  Plus, adding Brand is not only "just one piece", but is a MASSIVE upgrade from Evans/Green, and has a residual effect by knocking Thad to his natural position, and he's likely to develop further, as well as knocking Iggy to the 2.  So while it's only one player, it's essentially a massive upgrade + fixing the lineup.

jemagee

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2008, 02:24:25 PM »
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It's Eskin so take it for what it's worth.

In the immortal words of Triumph, it's not worth for me to poop on

Offline johnny broad-street

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2008, 02:24:26 PM »
After we created this oasis of discussion.... :'(

Offline sixersftw

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2008, 02:28:46 PM »
Hey dbods, about the 3pt shooting thing.  Don't you think the addition of Brand would dramatically increase our outside shooting?  i just looked the numbers from the pistons the year before Sheed, the year they traded for him, and the year after.  the numbers are pretty darn interested.  Chauncey who has always been solid increased from .392 (bfs) (before sheed) to .426 (as)after sheed.    Rip went from .269 (bfs) to .305 (as).  Tay's numbers don't really equate because he had a ridiculous 3pt% because he didn't take many (bfs) and that number increased each year, w/ the % decreasing as well.

jemagee

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2008, 02:31:21 PM »
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Don't you think the addition of Brand would dramatically increase our outside shooting? 

I brought this up early and dabods made a good point, it only helps if the guys you have are good from the perimeter in general and just need more open looks, but the sixers aren't really that good from the 3 point line distance in general with their starters (andre miller is downright atrocious)...his argument and i believe he knows what he's talking about is that most sixers players are not good perimeter shooters in general :)

Offline Skates

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2008, 02:31:55 PM »
After we created this oasis of discussion.... :'(

You could be on the PhilaPhans board right now where the only active thread is where BS is cursing at everybody who won't admit what a wonderful GM Billy King was and how Stefanski's moves stink of desparation.  What idiots we are here actually discussing the value of three point shooting on CHiP contenders when we could be in that stimulating discussion right now.

jemagee

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #141 on: July 08, 2008, 02:32:33 PM »
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BS is cursing at everybody

SHOCKING

Offline DuckyNinja

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #142 on: July 08, 2008, 02:34:13 PM »
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Don't you think the addition of Brand would dramatically increase our outside shooting? 

I brought this up early and dabods made a good point, it only helps if the guys you have are good from the perimeter in general and just need more open looks, but the sixers aren't really that good from the 3 point line distance in general with their starters (andre miller is downright atrocious)...his argument and i believe he knows what he's talking about is that most sixers players are not good perimeter shooters in general :)

I think Iggy could go from slightly below average to average.  Miller, Brand, and Dalembert certainly aren't going to hit anything.  And really, I have no clue on Thad.  He was 6-19 on the year last year, but if he worked on it, I think he can certainly be average from beyond the arc.  Maybe not this year though.

jemagee

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #143 on: July 08, 2008, 02:34:59 PM »
Might be something to watch at summer league, sixers, 3 pointers, and the players who 'matter' as opposedto the fillers

Offline sixersftw

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #144 on: July 08, 2008, 02:36:07 PM »
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Don't you think the addition of Brand would dramatically increase our outside shooting? 

I brought this up early and dabods made a good point, it only helps if the guys you have are good from the perimeter in general and just need more open looks, but the sixers aren't really that good from the 3 point line distance in general with their starters (andre miller is downright atrocious)...his argument and i believe he knows what he's talking about is that most sixers players are not good perimeter shooters in general :)

i understand that with miller but our other key players have fairly similar percentages.  Lou has a surprisingly similar % to Billups(though Billups took and made many, many,many more).  Iguodala is better than Rip was at that time as well.  Thad has an ok % (higher than Rips but far fewer).  maybe I'm just hoping against reality.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #145 on: July 08, 2008, 02:43:58 PM »
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While they shot well getting there, they certainly didn't win because of their 3 point shooting.  Let's just agree to disagree on this, because we're obviously not going to convince each other of the contrary.  As a side note, a friend I'm talking to about this submits that neither the Jordan-era Bulls nor the 2006 Heat had any above average 3 point shooters

What?  Is this the same friend who said Brand was "Zach Randolph, but slightly better defensively"?  If so, you may want to find someone else to talk about Sports to.

The 1996-1997 Bulls were 6th in the league in 3 pt shooting %.  They were 12th in makes.  Scottie Pippen was a very good 3 pt shooter (made 156 at 37%).  Steve Kerr was a friggin sharpshooter.  110 made at 46%.  The year before he made 122 at over 50%.  He wasn't above average?  Your friend has poor long term memory.  Ron Harper was also a good shooter, and at that point in his career, Michael was too.

In the 1990-1991 season the Bulls were 3rd in the league in 3pt shooting %.  John Paxson and Craig Hodges were very good and very efficient.  Michael and Scottie could both make shots. 

the heat certainly weren't a good 3 pt shooting team, and they're probably your best example.  But I don't think you realize how bad we were last year.  We were last in the league in both three's made and %.  the heat that year were 13th in made and 20th in %.  Mediocre, but not bad.  Posey, Kapono, Walker and Jason Williams combined to make 382 three's on 37.6% shooting.  All had to be defended on the perimeter.  By comparison, our top 4 returning three point shooters from last year (Iguodala, Green, Williams, Young) combined to make 213 three's at 32.3%.

Actually, looking at our list, it just made me even more sad.  Of our returning players, we only had 3 players make more than 10 three pointers last year.

TEN.

We could be historically bad.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #146 on: July 08, 2008, 02:47:13 PM »
Returning Players 3 pt shooting:
Iguodala: 101-307
Williams: 55-153
Green: 51-179
Young: 6-19
Jason Smith: 4-14
Andre Miller: 3-34
Reggie Evans: 1-1

That's an even bigger problem than I thought.  We all agree Green should have a very, very reduced role.  We don't have anyone to keep defenses honest.  All those previous teams had guys who you had remain on, which opened up the driving lanes, and allowed post players to operate.

jemagee

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #147 on: July 08, 2008, 02:47:20 PM »
That last in the league counts what korver did while he was here or no?

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #148 on: July 08, 2008, 02:49:22 PM »
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That last in the league counts what korver did while he was here or no?

Yes.

Offline sixersftw

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Re: Brand?
« Reply #149 on: July 08, 2008, 02:49:27 PM »
yeah it does but korver was in a SUPER slump when he was here.  I can't believe miller hoisted up 30+ 3's :o