Author Topic: Plan B: Shooting Guard  (Read 12637 times)

Offline Skates

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2008, 09:40:45 AM »
First of all, let's put what SF76 said in perspective.  He says it appears that they have put all of their eggs in one basket, presumably based on his "insider" information.  To take it literally that he knows exactly what is going on at the highest levels of the Sixers organization and is speaking for them is ludicrous.  I believe he has limited (but useful) insider info that is then colored by his own opinions, in fact you can see that when he posts.  I highly doubt that Stefanski, DiLeo and company are sitting there thinking, "Oh crap, I hope this Smith thing works out since we have no other plans.  if only we were guys posting on message Boards then we might have had a better back-up plan."  

Let's look at exactly what SF76 said:

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The Smith visit as you have seen on TV is going well....he will leave town with a verbal offer.....the Sixers are trying to move Green or Evans with the Utah pick as incentive around the league for any bit of cap relief they can get.

Nothing new there, we knew they were trying to do both of those things.  They are not even necessarily related.  If we clear $4.5 million a year (Evans) or $3 million a year (Green), at best part of that money would be used to sweeten the offer to Smith.  We can already offer him a deal starting at $11+ million per year, he is absolutley not worth a contract starting at $14-15 million per year and without consulting the CBA that would be more than they are allowed to pay him I believe.  So all or part of the money they would clear with Evans or Green leaving (more than one year for each, meaning ongoing cap savings) would be used for something else now or down the road even if we sign Smith.

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Maggette may not wait until the Josh Smith thing is over to sign with a contender for the mid level.

First, he won't sign with a team that has cap room for the equivalent of the MLE, for us he would be more expensive.  Second, I don't want him in any case.  He stopped playing D years ago, he is at the end of his prime when most of our guys are barely starting to approach their's and he is a good scorer, not a great one.  No sweat here, in fact I hope he does sign somewhere else so we are not tempted to overspend on him.

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Josh Childress will be wined and dined here on Monday.

We knew that was coming and it is a good thing in my opinion.  If we can move Green, I would love to have Childress come here.  He is an extremely long, athletic sixth man who would immediately become our best perimeter defender and he is a high percentage shooter and good passer.  Screw Ben Gordon, he simply is not that good for the money he wants.  Childress will come cheaper and a perimeter bench of Childress and Lou won't cost much more than Gordon wants for himself and offers a lot more versatility, efficient production and value.  Ben Gordon is a defensive liability and bench player.  I would much prefer to add Hinrich if I was going for someone from the Bulls.  The FO is thinking long term, trying to build a contender.  Ben Gordon is a knee jerk reaction, immediate gratification signing.  Childress is a perfect sixth man on a CHiP contender in the future down the road with Lou as the scoring spark off the bench, think Bobby Jones, and not the recent one, as a comp for Childress.  Childress also makes it more palatable to move Iggy in the future for a real scoring wing, not an undersized player with an outsized ego like Gordon.

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The backup plan if no PF is to move Thad to the 4 spot again and get a SG moving Andre Iguodala to the SF.

Note that this does not say the back-up plan if we don't get Smith, it says PF.  There are other free agents and numerous trade possibilities between the possibility of simply not getting Smith and not getting any PF.  These are the areas where you really have to take what SF76 takes with a grain of salt.  he knows some general stuff, not all of the plans.  He was wrong with Arthur on the draft, didn't know about the Webber deal, etc.  His source clearly has limited info and should not be taken as anything more than someone who knows the internal FO scuttlebutt, not the exact and full plans of the team.

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WE seem to have all our eggs in one basket right now.

Pure opinion on his part.  True to the extent that if we are not trying to do a S&T with Smith and simply choose to make an offer, we are kind of stuck in neutral for a while waiting for his answer, and if he does sign, waiting to see if Atlanta matches.  That is the danger inherent in going after a RFA.  My belief is that the FO has a list of PF options that they find acceptable for short or long term goals.  If that list is exhausted for any number of reasons they go back to Thad at the 4 to start the season.  Good, this means we don't make a trade or signing just to make one.  That is BK thought and needs to be eradicated form the organization or else you end up with a basket full of Willie Greens, Kenny Thomas's and Brian Skinners.  Been there, done that and it sucked.

Worst case scenario is no PF we want can be had for a price in $ and/or assets we are willing to pay.  If we add cap space by losing Reggie, or preferably, Green then that cap space can be added to our existig space plus Miller's expiring contract, giving us $23-24 million, although that number may be reduced depending on Iggy and Lou's contracts, of current and future cap space to work with.  if we spend some of that on a long term piece like Childress who we want for our contending years, it will still leave a ton of space.  We did just draft a potential monster (or potential washout) at PF, so waiting to see how Speights develops and what his realistic upside is in the league is not a horrible idea and see what kind of shooting and scoring potential Thad flashes.  Thad might not be quite ready for the full time transition yet to PF, but with Speights, our own J. Smith and possibly Reggie or another cheap veteran on a one year deal also available at PF I think he swings between the forward positions as he transitions to his long-term spot.

As far as pressure to get something done this summer, the fans might bitch if we don't make a big splash, but the ownership appears to be strongly in Stefanski's corner. there is no reason we can't continue to show improvement this year with a young team that should keep improving internally and with the addition of Speights at a minimum.  Now, if they waste cap space this summer and/or don't make a big move by the middle of next summer I will be looking for Stefanski's scalp too.

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The Sixers think Jamont Gordon or McClellan will make the team this fall.

shows the guy knows nothing, the big find this summer will be the "Bean" man (Callustus Ezikwu for those not in the know).   :D

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2008, 09:43:11 AM »
Skates... you are amazing. Good show, old man.... good show!

jemagee

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2008, 09:44:54 AM »
Skates - were you a frequent realgm.com poster?  SF1976 has a track record proven over a couple years of being accurate and having correct information...people blow it out of proportion or read into it or beg for me, but he only presents what he knows and what he knows has been borne out in the past to be accurate...

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2008, 09:55:55 AM »
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I would still rather have Hinrich than Gordon

I probably would too, but I do consider Gordon an option, which is really the only point I was trying to make.

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I guess I concede that Gordon has a decent eFG% (although several primarily 3pt shooters have much higher eFG% than 50%.)

Who?

I mean, I'm sure there are some specialists (guys like Bowen, Raja Bell, etc) that might if they're lucky score 12 ppg. 

Here are the perimeter players scoring over 18 ppg, with their eFG%:
Rashard Lewis: 55.4%
Deron Williams: 54.4
Brandon Roy: 48.5%
Manu: 54%
Hedo: 52.4%
Pierce: 52.9%
Granger: 51.6%
Iguodala: 49.5%
Stephen Jackson: 48.1%
Rudy Gay: 51.1%
Monta Ellis: 53.6%
Crawford: 47.3%
Chris Paul: 52.4%
Vince Carter: 49.4%
McGrady: 45.2%
Joe Johnson: 48.9%
Jason Richardson: 52.4%
Baron Davis: 48.3%
Maggette: 49.7%
Redd: 49.5%
Kevin Martin: 51.7%
Iverson: 48.8%
Carmelo: 51.1%
Kobe: 50.3%
LeBron: 51.8%

So last year Gordon was more efficient then 12 of them, less efficient than 15 of them.  There's a general trend that guys who are asked to be primary options offensively are less efficient than guys being 2nd or 3rd options (guys like Deron, Rashard, Hedo etc being more efficient than guys like Kobe, McGrady, even LeBron).  Despite coming off the bench, Gordon was the leading scorer on the bulls.  I have no doubt that if we signed him, we would be getting a guy in the 50-52% eFG%, which isn't uber efficient (i.e. Deron), but is certainly not a low percentage chucker IMO.

jemagee

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 10:02:46 AM »
When the sixers strike out on Smith and Brand - would you sign Ben Gordon if the bulls are letting him go as the starting 2 guard for the sixers?

Offline bebopdeluxe

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 10:16:10 AM »
jem:

If the Bulls sign both Deng and Gordon to long-term deals, they will probably have to move Hinrich, as his $10 million salary this season (and $35+ million over the next 4 seasons) is simply too much money to tie up into a bench guy and insurance policy.

Do we agree on that?

If we don't, we can stop here...

Now, since the Bulls would be primarily trading Hinrich for salary cap relief (as we would probably agree that he would not be getting traded if he had a Willie Green-sized contract), the option of taking back Hinrich's salary in a trade doesn't achieve a lot - unless they get back a stud 4/5 that upgrades their frontcourt (and I simply do not see that guy out there...GS - one of the other teams with cap room and need of a PG - certainly does not have bigs to spare...and if that guy was out there, we would all be talking about him for the Sixers...right?).  So - the most likely scenario is the Bulls moving him for cap relief - and the Sixers are one of the only teams that could do that (the Grizz could as well, but they seem to be pretty stacked at PG right now)...

I would agree with you that getting Hinrich simply for cap relief seems too easy - but it looks more and more like that might be a realistic option - especially if the Bulls sign Gordon to a big contract.

We'll just have to wait and see...

« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 10:23:51 AM by bebopdeluxe »

Offline anklebreaker

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 10:18:50 AM »
First of all, let's put what SF76 said in perspective.  He says it appears that they have put all of their eggs in one basket, presumably based on his "insider" information.  To take it literally that he knows exactly what is going on at the highest levels of the Sixers organization and is speaking for them is ludicrous.  I believe he has limited (but useful) insider info that is then colored by his own opinions, in fact you can see that when he posts.  I highly doubt that Stefanski, DiLeo and company are sitting there thinking, "Oh crap, I hope this Smith thing works out since we have no other plans.  if only we were guys posting on message Boards then we might have had a better back-up plan."  

Flawlessly put.  Couldn't agree more. 

jemagee

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2008, 10:20:31 AM »
I don't agree that the bulls would primariliy be trading kirk hinrich for cap relief, nor do i agree that it's fait accompli the bulls even keep gordon.

The Bulls have a lot of work to do this off season aside from the back court issues, they have front court issues, and a new coach who should have a new system to evaluate...i expect they could be quite busy rearranging the faces of their franchise and looking for better assets.

Instead of 'dumpig hinrich for salary relief' maybe they are looking for bench players back who fill a different role, never know...

Offline Skates

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2008, 11:31:23 AM »
Skates - were you a frequent realgm.com poster?  SF1976 has a track record proven over a couple years of being accurate and having correct information...people blow it out of proportion or read into it or beg for me, but he only presents what he knows and what he knows has been borne out in the past to be accurate...

I lurked there for a while and have been posting there for six months.  We had a big discussion of SF76's value a while ago, so in addition to the info I have read from him in real time, in that thread Dabods and others quoted other posts SF76 had made that supported his credibility.  Some posters over there treat him as a god or like he is Stefanski's top assistant.  Others think he is full of crap and know nothing and makes a bunch of stuff up.  I fall into the middle camp.  I believe him and note that he doesn't claim to be an insider himself and admits there are times when stuff goes down that he does not know about.  I think he is very credible and I love reading his posts, he is very self effacing and a good poster even if he did not have insider info.

But I have also read through his stuff and found that his information is not the ned all and be all of FO thinking.  His source either has limited access to info, knows some inside stuff, but not all, or maybe more likely his source is smart enough to know what he can share and what he can't.  Stuff like SF76 tells us is good info for a message baord, but it is usually not stuff that needs to be kept secret to keep other teams from getting a leg up on us. 

Examples:

1.  This years draft he knew that Speights was one of the guys they were strongly considering and said so.  I think he had this on good information.  Some of the other guys he said we were interested in at 16 (and he acknowledged a fluid situation), essentially our top 3 choices, were Arthur and Jordan, with arthur likely in the lead.  It was clear after the draft that Speights had been their target all along and that they passed on Arthur because of his size and limited upside, not his alleged kidney issues.  It is also fairly clear that Jordan was of interest to them, but not at 16.  Either his source didn't know the full plan or he filtered it and watered it down.  A good employee would do that.

2.  It is quite clear that Josh Smith was our absolute, primary target in FA.  He let ln like he and Brand were neck and neck.  Maybe they were in theory, but it seems abundantly clear that the team had hard targeted Smith and made only due diligence calls to Brand.  Again either SF76's source only knew the general consensus, but not hard plans, or he necessarily diluted the info to make it suitable for public leaking (not to be confused with public urination). 

Teams all claim they never check out message boards, but they know what is out there.  If there was a guy in the FO leaking us the complete dope on the Sixers' plans they would find out who it was pretty quickly and put a stop to it.  My guess is that they know who SF76's source is and that he has implicit approval to pass this stuff on in a filtered generalized form or they know the source does not have enough info to leak that could hurt them.   

Offline tk76-

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2008, 03:31:52 PM »
Quote
I would still rather have Hinrich than Gordon

I probably would too, but I do consider Gordon an option, which is really the only point I was trying to make.

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I guess I concede that Gordon has a decent eFG% (although several primarily 3pt shooters have much higher eFG% than 50%.)

Who?

I mean, I'm sure there are some specialists (guys like Bowen, Raja Bell, etc) that might if they're lucky score 12 ppg. 
...
So last year Gordon was more efficient then 12 of them, less efficient than 15 of them.  There's a general trend that guys who are asked to be primary options offensively are less efficient than guys being 2nd or 3rd options (guys like Deron, Rashard, Hedo etc being more efficient than guys like Kobe, McGrady, even LeBron).  Despite coming off the bench, Gordon was the leading scorer on the bulls.  I have no doubt that if we signed him, we would be getting a guy in the 50-52% eFG%, which isn't uber efficient (i.e. Deron), but is certainly not a low percentage chucker IMO.

Damn you Bodner!- I was much happier living in my ignorant world- dismissing Gordan as a selfish chucker....

Can I admit you are right and still want the Sixers to pass on Gordon?

Offline Skates

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2008, 03:56:18 PM »
Ben Gordon would be a wonderful player to have at a reasonable price.  He is the modern day version of Vinnie "the microwave oven" Johnson.  He may be an efficient shooter, but he is also extremely streaky, kind of like Willie Green on steroids.  The problem is that he way overvalues his own worth and will probably find a GM who does too.  He is a great scoring third guard, but I still don't see him as a starter as the rest of his game is subpar (passing, defense, those sorts of things) and don't want to pay him like one.  I especially don't want to pay him big money and give up any assets for him.  He and a guy like Childress are very complementary, but we can get our own less expensive version of that with Lou W.

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2008, 09:26:30 AM »
According to SF76's latest report, if we strike out with Smith... we'll either go after Sheed or Marion through a trade or sign Maggette or Childress. He said that Ben Gordon is on our radar but we would only go after him if we struck out on Maggette and Childress at that seems unlikely.

Maggette might be alright at the 2, Childress does little to nothing for me. This is is not what I have hoping to read upon my return from Zoo York.

Offline Skates

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2008, 09:31:21 AM »
According to SF76's latest report, if we strike out with Smith... we'll either go after Sheed or Marion through a trade or sign Maggette or Childress. He said that Ben Gordon is on our radar but we would only go after him if we struck out on Maggette and Childress at that seems unlikely.

Maggette might be alright at the 2, Childress does little to nothing for me. This is is not what I have hoping to read upon my return from Zoo York.

I am the exact opposite, I like Childress and Maggette does nothing for me.  Really though it all depends on the big picture of how the team is eventually put together.  Some players I may not like may become a much better fit after other changes/additions are made.

Offline TheGuiltyParty

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2008, 09:33:34 AM »
I'm hoping that Ed is putting any trade talks for Wallace and Marion above the idea of signing of signing Maggette or Childress. Both Wallace and Marion are expiring contracts that would not only make this team better now but they also improve the long-term prospects.

Offline tk76-

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Re: Plan B: Shooting Guard
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2008, 09:43:13 AM »
I agree with TGP.  I would rather the team keeps its flexibility moving forward by getting a bargain renatal, as opposed to locking in a good player like Childress or Maggette, who help, but take up cap without filling a glaring hole.

But I don't know, maybe the rental is costlier than we might think, and not worth it in the long term either.

Can't wait until the Sixers make a positive move- because I'm stressing too much about how things could go wrong and set the team back finatial for a minimal gain in talent.