Player Movement Thread (Was Free Agency Thread)

[The Sixer Fixer]

Actually SixerFixer, jem's are probably a better overall indicator.  Iguodala is generally responsible for guarding the other team's best SG/SF scoring option, while Redd usually gets the easiest defensive assignment.  Team defense takes into account switching and everything like that, while I'm pretty sure the numbers you showed only show what the other team's SG/SF did on the floor while that player was on the floor playing that position on offense.

On an unrelated note, PTI apparently reported that the Clippers made an offer to Iguodala.  No terms were given.

And a team like Milwaukee who doesn't have a single starter who could be considered an above average defender isn't a good comparison when looking at a team.  You can't look at a team and say 1 specific player is horrible because the team is horrible.  I much prefer individual #'s than team for that reason.  I understand there's millions of scenarios that can be looked at and arguments that can be made for one thing over another.  The point I'm making is the diffenrce in the 2 players is way overblow IMO.

[jemagee]

Yeah, well in basketball defense is much more team oriented than in other sports, which is why i don't like comparing the per statistics for defensive purposes...when andre iguodala is playing the 3 position but guarding the 2 position, which per is used - if it's just related to position on the floor then it fails to take into account situations where said player is defending a different position...allen iverson starts at the 2 guard but defends the point guard, by position he's the 2, but which per is being used?

I'm assuming the people that keeps these stats factor that in.  If they actually track percentage of minutes played at SG vs. SF each game, then someone must be watching the games and not just making arbitrary decisions about who the player was covering on each possession.  There is not true stat to represent how good of a defender someone is.  The point of my post was to disprove (at least a little) this theory that Redd is outscored by his opponent and thus has a negative net impact.  The opposite is actually obvious (more than Andre at least).  

No one said that redd was outscored, there's more to defense than stopping your opponent from making a basket, how many assists per game, rebounds per game, do these guys average when defended by redd versus iguodala, which player are they drawing defensively, if you are playing the cavs and andre iguodala guards lebron james, but michael redd guards larry hughes/delonte west, who do you think is going to look better defensively if you look at the comparative per numbers...or against the lakers, iguodala will guard kobe while redd guards derek fisher?

When do they guard the same defensive assignemnts, as someone said up higher, Iguodala draws the more difficult defensive assignemtn most nights than redd probably does

[jemagee]

On an unrelated note, PTI apparently reported that the Clippers made an offer to Iguodala.  No terms were given.

But no offer sheet right?

[jemagee]

BTW - on that artest thing - two other things

1.  I personally think he's getting crazier
2.  Isn't he a small forward?

[The Sixer Fixer]

No one said that redd was outscored, there's more to defense than stopping your opponent from making a basket, how many assists per game, rebounds per game, do these guys average when defended by redd versus iguodala, which player are they drawing defensively, if you are playing the cavs and andre iguodala guards lebron james, but michael redd guards larry hughes/delonte west, who do you think is going to look better defensively if you look at the comparative per numbers...or against the lakers, iguodala will guard kobe while redd guards derek fisher?

When do they guard the same defensive assignemnts, as someone said up higher, Iguodala draws the more difficult defensive assignemtn most nights than redd probably does

Actually I think this concept that Iguodala guarded the opposing teams best player is another misconception that everyone loves to toss around like fact.  The Sixers ran a pretty small lineup out there.  It usually included either Willie Lou or Miller at SG.  None of those guys is really ever guarding the opposing SF (they are way too short).  Andre gets that job most of the time.  Is that the best scorer on the other team at the SG/SF spot?  Not in all cases.  A specific example was Willie guarding Rip in the playoffs.  Is Prince a better offensive player than Rip?  No way in hell. 

As for who Redd is guarding most nights, I highly doubt anyone here saw enough Bucks game to say for sure who it was so it's pure specualtion to say one way or the other.
 

[DuckyNinja]

I don't know if there was an offer sheet, I got secondhand information.  I'm assuming that if there was an offer sheet, we'd've (I like my double conjunctions, deal with it) heard of it by now.  He probably is getting crazier, but at least he's not a crybaby on the court like Iguodala.  He is a small forward, but he's a better scorer than Iguodala (35.8 and 38.0 from 3 the past 2 years, 49.3% eFG last year), can defend SG, SF, or PF, so I don't see the problem there.

And Sixer Fixer, we can argue this, but I think we can all agree that both stats are flawed for many reasons.

[Derek Bodner]

Jem: I don't think paying the luxury tax is as common place as you seem to believe.  Last year, 7 teams paid the luxury tax.  18 out of 24 playoff teams didn't pay the luxury tax.

Watch how many teams do not use the mid level exception this year.  Reason?  Almost 100% to avoid the luxury tax.

Furthermore, even teams like Dallas, who did pay the luxury tax last year, the tax does influence their decisions.  Remember Dallas using the amnesty to get rid of MIchael Finely?  He was still a 16 ppg scorer at the time and still a large part of their team.  The only reason he was gone was to save luxury tax money.  Remember how Dallas (Dallas!) of all teams got outbid on Steve Nash, who went on to win back-back MVP's?

Which gets worse when this franchise HAS displayed a fear of the luxury tax in past years. 

And you think it's not going to effect decision making in future years?

The luxury tax this year is set at just about $13 million more than the salary cap.  That doesn't give the sixers all that much wiggle room in coming years if they max out Iguodala, along with maxing out Brand.  To say his contract doesn't have to be at least taken into consideration would be a mistake, IMO.

And this isn't even getting into discussing how if he's making Max money, how it affects his tradability.  That's something you always have to be conscious of, IMO.  Rarely are teams built perfect right from the get-go.  We will most likely have to tinker with this core to get it to a championship level, IMO.  That becomes much harder if players are continually overpaid, as Iguodala would be for max, both in terms of us being limited in the contracts we could take back for fear of going over the tax, and in terms of Iguodala's worth to other teams should he be included in a deal. 

Andre Kirilenko was a very, very good player who did many, many things positively on the basketball court.  He was a great asset to an up and coming Utah Jazz team, despite not being a #1 option offensively.  His trade value, even after somewhat of a bounceback year he had last year, is virtually nothing because of his overpaid contract.  I fear the same could be said for Iguodala if we're forced to give him a contract in the range of 5 years, 70 million.  And if Brand wasn't the last piece?  That could be a detriment to acquiring the last piece somewhere down the line, either because of us unwilling to take on a long term, big money contract (because of having Brand and Iguodala maxed out, with Young coming up for a big deal in a few years), or because Iguodala's trade value is adversely affected by the contract.

[Derek Bodner]

That is exactly what I am saying. Just because a team is willing to overpay Iguodala significantly, it doesn't mean the Sixers have to match.

Pet peeve: when people say "a statistic is flawed" without saying why it's flawed.

PER and PER differential may very well be flawed, but I think it better if you would say WHY they're flawed.

[jemagee]

I think as a defensive metric PER differential is flawed is that because unlike baseball basketball involves more than just the 'two' oppoenents at any time...the reason the bill james things works so well in baseball is because at any one time, 95% (or more) of the events that happen in a baseball game are easily quantifiable and isolated.

In basketball it all occurs much faster and in flow with so many events by one individual being effected by the other individuals around them, both offensively and defensively...i like that people are trying to evolve the way they look at basketball but i think it's much harder to do it in a similar way to baseball...

I'm not even sure I'm explaining this right or accurately, but it's just a different game and you can't just look at the numbers from a score sheet (which per does) these days...not to mention that a basketball score sheet doesn't cover 'as completely' the game that happened than a baseball score sheet does.

At least not publicly...i like the hollinger stat, I like the 82 games stuff, but i realize that they are not as complete or mature as certain baseball statistics,

[southjersey]

You dont have to pay Iguodala whatever he is asking. Have we forgotten the 2008 playoffs already? There are alot of areas of his game that are inconsistant, and is probably at most an 18 ppg on this team with Brand here and Young getting more time. We're not even sure he can be a fulltime SG. The point is that bad contracts drag a team down. If Iguodala gets a huge extension and does not perform, like in the playoffs, things will get ugly with the philly fans.

Have you forgotten the rest of his career or that there's more to basketball than points per game or what players of equal iguodala skill make around the league....

Dear god people Iguodala is NOT willie green, he's not fungible, he's not easily replaced, he's a key high level piece of a team that wants to win a title...if you let him walk and sign an inferior person than that 'full step' you took forward by signing  brand not has a pretty substantiali partial step backwards...

The point was that you shouldnt overpay him. If Ed does overpay, then he didnt do a good job of negotiating.

[jemagee]

The point was that you shouldnt overpay him. If Ed does overpay, then he didnt do a good job of negotiating.

And you shouldn't evaluate someones worth out of six isolated games when you got close to 350 to choose from...if ed stefanski bases andre iguodalas value to sixers based purely on the playoffs this year, he should be fired immediately, much like over paying a guy who performs well in a 6 game (loss) series.

[TheGuiltyParty]

I love the conversation but obviously there are those of us who believe giving Iguodala $70MIL is way too risky and there are those of us who do not believe that is a problem. I think I've said all I've got on this topic so I'm gonna move on from this until some numbers start to be circulated.
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Do you guys think the entire league is on hold until the Clippers make their move? I mean, are we really going to see trades before players like Iguodala, Smith, Childress, Deng, Gordon, and Okafor sign somewhere? Are we going to see any of those guys sign with their teams before the Clippers do something???

I hate the Clippers. They're slowing the news down to a halt.

[jemagee]

It's not just the clippers, they are the 'big story' because of brand, but don't forget that the warriors are out there with a lot of cap room

[TheGuiltyParty]

Wait... didn't the Warriors use their cap room on Maggette and Turiaf?? Do they have enough room to sign another major player without renouncing Biedrins or Ellis??

[jemagee]

Carp my pants, i forgot about maggette....d'oh

thanks for reminding me

BTW - rumors are floating that the lakers won't match on turiaf