Player Movement Thread (Was Free Agency Thread)

[jemagee]

I unfortunately didn't sleep through the past decade and watched as my team was unable to land a quality #2 guy due to being handcuffed by bad contracts. I missed that and once Iguodala is overpaid, we'll be right back there.

Because that 2 million dollar savings a year (60 versus 70 million) is going make the difference between signing a start #2 in free agency while elton brand is still in his prime at not.

I didn't sleep the past decade either, but I saw a GM who didn't know what the fuck he was doing, now if you trust ed stefanski, then if iguodala signs for 70 million over 5 years you are going to have trust ed stefanski...or are you going to turn on that much of a dime.

Is Iguodala better than Kevin Martin? Is he better than Caron Butler? Those aren't fair names since they aren't on the market this summer but let me ask this: If Ellis gets $55MIL and Deng gets $55MIL and Iguodala gets $70MIL... is that going to seem right to you?

Which one of them can play the 2 and the 3 defensively, average 18/5/5/2 and defend some of the best players in the game.

Andre Iguodala, in my opinion is a better all around basketball player than all 3 guys you just mentioned, maybe not better than Deng, but Deng had injury issues that could cause concern to other teams whereas Iguodala has basically been healthy and played almost every game of his 4 year career.

But, if you think Igoudala isn't a valuable piece to a title contender, then by all means cheer when he leaves...but I gotta tell you, i'm not sure i'd enjoy a starting back court of louis williams and willie green in a year or so....would you?

[jemagee]

And don't forget, they still have to find a real point guard (no, i don't believe louis williams is a real point guard) or hope that andre miller will agree to stay for a too long over priced extension.

if it comes down to over paying an Andre, i personally would much rather over pay the younger stronger more athletic one than the aging slower doesn't really like the east coast one

[jemagee]

Ok, i think the horse is dead

[TheGuiltyParty]

now if you trust ed stefanski, then if iguodala signs for 70 million over 5 years you are going to have trust ed stefanski...or are you going to turn on that much of a dime.

And that is the almighty difference. I do trust Stefanski and if he thinks he can build a winner with Iguodala being paid that... then I will be ok with it. Believe me, I'm not going to bitch about Iguodala getting his money if we match and if he starts the season off on a cold streak... I'm not the type that will say, "See... we shouldn't have paid him".

I think this team needs a legit shooter in it's starting lineup and they will probably have to acquire him at some point. I just don't want Ed handcuffed in any way. Hopefully I'm dead wrong and hopefully we win a title with the core of the team we currently have.

[TheGuiltyParty]

As for other news.... what are your feelings about Lou Williams?? PG of the future or career 6th man?

[jemagee]

And I don't disagree, I just don't think replacing iguodala is the way to go about it because he brings so much to the court in so many directions...if thaddeus young development continues apace then maybe he'll develop that outside shot, or who knows, maybe the next point guard will should better than 28% career fro the 3 point line - wouldn't that be something huh.

I still think the sixers can sign iguodala AND get kirk hinrich without stripping their bench (but i'm in the cap that jason smith is easily tradeable).

Course then at some points sams contract expires and the sixers have to replace him

[jemagee]

As for other news.... what are your feelings about Lou Williams?? PG of the future or career 6th man?

Not sure, never really thought about it

[TheGuiltyParty]

I still think the sixers can sign iguodala AND get kirk hinrich without stripping their bench (but i'm in the cap that jason smith is easily tradeable).

Course then at some points sams contract expires and the sixers have to replace him

Hmmm... that's where our focus should be but I know Ed loves Miller. I do believe Ed should be doing the following...

1) Working the phones for a 3 way trade that sends Miller out of town and Kirk Hinrich in.
2) Re-signing Iguodala
3) Re-signing Williams

I'm all for trading Jason Smith because I don't believe he'll be anything more than a 7th man on a contender unless he pulls a Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, Scott Williams, Stacey King, or Mark Madsen and hooks up with the 2 best players in the game for a free ride to a championship ring.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Just a comparison for all the people that claim Iguodala is an excellent defender and a guy like Redd is trash. 

This is based on 82games.com numbers and I'm not saying it the "official" way to judge a player, but I did find some of the numbers interesting.  Also, I'm aware there's other factors that affect these numbers like how the other guys on the court with you are performing, but let's just focus on the individual right now though.

Iguodala (48 MPG Averages)
PPG (at SG) = 21.1 - his PER was 18.3
PPG (at SF) = 25.2 - his PER was 22.6

Iguodala's Opponent (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 20.4 - opponent PER of 14.8
PPG (at SF) = 19.2 - opponent PER of 17.0

Net 48 MPG Position Production
SG is +0.8 PPG and +3.5 PER
SF is +5.9 PPG and +5.6 PER

Now Redd's #'s

Redd (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 27.5 - his PER was 20.6
PPG (at SF) = 34.4 - his PER was 23.4

Redd's Opponent (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 19.3 - opponent PER was 15.4
PPG (at SF) = 18.5 - opponent PER was 15.9

Net 48 MPG Position Production
SG is +8.2 PPG and +5.2 PER
SF is +15.9 PPG and +7.5 PER

So based on the above, Redd actually has a higher positive impact when directly comparing him against his opponent.  They both actually give up about the same amount of PPG, but Redd is obviously the higher scorer.  The PER difference is close as Andre played more minutes at SF (+5.6 PER) and Redd played more at SG (+5.2).

Here's the #'s for 06-07

Iguodala (48 MPG Averages)
PPG (at SG) = 22.8 - his PER was 20.9
PPG (at SF) = 20.4 - his PER was 18.3

Iguodala's Opponent (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 22.1 - opponent PER of 17.1
PPG (at SF) = 19.7 - opponent PER of 19.0

Net 48 MPG Position Production
SG is +0.7 PPG and +3.8 PER
SF is +0.7 PPG and -0.7 PER

And now Redd...

Redd (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 33.2 - his PER was 24.6
PPG (at SF) = 33.2 - his PER was 23.5

Redd's Opponent (48 MPG Avg)
PPG (at SG) = 21.4 - opponent PER was 15.5
PPG (at SF) = 20.7 - opponent PER was 16.5

Net 48 MPG Position Production
SG is +11.8 PPG and +9.1 PER
SF is +12.5 PPG and +7.0 PER

The difference in 06-07 was clearly in Redd's favor.  He had a much higher PPG difference and a much higher PER difference.  Again, I'm not saying these numbers tell the full story, but I do think this argument that Andre is a lockdown defender and Redd is a piece of crap is WAY overblown.  Statistically Redd is way outscoring his direct opponent so factoring in his shooting ability I would easily take him at the same price as Andre.  Problem is he makes a lot more so that is the only sticking point for me.

[jemagee]

Well I"m a big fan of looking at the game in different ways, I think using comaprative PERs like this to determine defense isn't the best way to do things.

How about these numbers

http://www.82games.com/0708/07MIL5D.HTM for Redd

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHI6D.HTM for Iguodala

I like to use these better to get vague idea of how well a team does with a guy on / off the court...

The 'defensive' side of the court is much more behind the offensive metric in terms of good ways to look at it - at least publicly

[The Sixer Fixer]

Well I"m a big fan of looking at the game in different ways, I think using comaprative PERs like this to determine defense isn't the best way to do things.

How about these numbers

http://www.82games.com/0708/07MIL5D.HTM for Redd

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHI6D.HTM for Iguodala

I like to use these better to get vague idea of how well a team does with a guy on / off the court...

The 'defensive' side of the court is much more behind the offensive metric in terms of good ways to look at it - at least publicly

Those numbers are more about the team performance that the individual player.  Granted the ones I posted are as well, but looking at what you posted is way more weighted for the TEAM.  The team stats are way more subjective IMO

[jemagee]

Yeah, well in basketball defense is much more team oriented than in other sports, which is why i don't like comparing the per statistics for defensive purposes...when andre iguodala is playing the 3 position but guarding the 2 position, which per is used - if it's just related to position on the floor then it fails to take into account situations where said player is defending a different position...allen iverson starts at the 2 guard but defends the point guard, by position he's the 2, but which per is being used?

[DuckyNinja]

Actually SixerFixer, jem's are probably a better overall indicator.  Iguodala is generally responsible for guarding the other team's best SG/SF scoring option, while Redd usually gets the easiest defensive assignment.  Team defense takes into account switching and everything like that, while I'm pretty sure the numbers you showed only show what the other team's SG/SF did on the floor while that player was on the floor playing that position on offense.

On an unrelated note, PTI apparently reported that the Clippers made an offer to Iguodala.  No terms were given.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Yeah, well in basketball defense is much more team oriented than in other sports, which is why i don't like comparing the per statistics for defensive purposes...when andre iguodala is playing the 3 position but guarding the 2 position, which per is used - if it's just related to position on the floor then it fails to take into account situations where said player is defending a different position...allen iverson starts at the 2 guard but defends the point guard, by position he's the 2, but which per is being used?

I'm assuming the people that keeps these stats factor that in.  If they actually track percentage of minutes played at SG vs. SF each game, then someone must be watching the games and not just making arbitrary decisions about who the player was covering on each possession.  There is not true stat to represent how good of a defender someone is.  The point of my post was to disprove (at least a little) this theory that Redd is outscored by his opponent and thus has a negative net impact.  The opposite is actually obvious (more than Andre at least).  

[jemagee]

Marc Stein evaluated the clippers pursuit of various Restricteds....he finds it curios that the clips would want iguodala as well

Starting with a visit to Clipperland ...

Look for the Los Angeles Clippers' search to replace Elton Brand to generate headlines at a slightly slower pace than the back-and-forth frustrations volleyed all week between the Clippers and the Brand camp.



The Clips have a variety of options to consider with $12 million-plus in salary-cap space and figure they'll need up to a week to plot their course, although they did meet face-to-face with Atlanta Hawks restricted free agent Josh Smith in L.A. on the same day Brand was introduced as the newest member of the Philadelphia 76ers.



The most likely scenario, I'm told, is still signing one of the top "restricteds" (as the GMs and agents like to call them) to an offer sheet. According to NBA front-office sources, L.A. has expanded its list of restricted candidates beyond Smith and Charlotte's Emeka Okafor to Chicago's Luol Deng and, yes, Philadelphia's Andre Iguodala.

The Clips are now determining whether to schedule face-to-face meetings (potentially in Vegas) with the other three players in that quartet, knowing they need as much info as possible before committing to one of them and then waiting up to seven days to see whether their contract offer is matched.



Challenge No. 1, as always in the restricted game, is forecasting which offer would be most likely to go unmatched. (My unsolicited opinion: Okafor is the most gettable, then Smith.)



But there's another challenge here: L.A. has to determine who fits best stylewise, too.

The high-flying Smith has the best skill set to float between small forward and the power forward slot vacated by Brand.



Okafor certainly can't move like a small forward and will undoubtedly be dismissed by some as too similar to Chris Kaman, but he is one of the few players (along with the likes of Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan) to average a double-double in each of the past four seasons ? and Charlotte's willingness to match a rich offer sheet -- just like Atlanta's -- will not be assumed until the historically thrifty Bobcats actually do it.



Iguodala, who happened to drop in Saturday night as an unexpected guest for the Denver-Philly game, strikes me as the most curious fit, since he clearly can't masquerade as a power forward. Yet you suspect that the Clips wouldn't mind driving up Iguodala's price at the very least.



Deng, meanwhile, is another interesting case because of his versatility. If the Clippers are ready to run, with a willing trio of pace-pushers (Baron Davis, Al Thornton and Eric Gordon) surrounding Kaman, Deng makes good sense.



Yet we repeat that the Clips, fearing an offer to any of them would be matched, might ultimately decide that it's better use their cap space to absorb a veteran's contract. New York's Zach Randolph has already been mentioned as a possibility, but there are more appealing names that could be available and have to be investigated first. Just to name two: Miami's Shawn Marion and Detroit's Rasheed Wallace, whom Dunleavy has coached before.