Author Topic: Keeper questions about the FNBA league.  (Read 11277 times)

Offline Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2004, 05:53:52 PM »
Yep, you're right. I would gladly trade Davis or Kidd to you for your 3rd round draft pick, which would help both of us, but as it stands now, I would have nothing to gain. The keeper thing would be a lot less difficult to swallow if I knew I could get a couple 3rd rounders for my trouble of building a team up and then having to tear it right back down. Then the idea of building a team from scratch would have some allure as well, but as it stands right now, you have to grab a Top Five guy, another keeper, and that's about all there is to it. There is no incentive for people to deal as the system is being currently proposed.

Offline ziggy

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2004, 01:28:59 AM »
This whole thing is very complicated.  I am not sure I can offer any great opinions, as everybody (Bod, BBF, Drom, even Jihad, yes amazingly even Jihad) are making good points.
I understand Bods concern of trading players that you aren't going to keep to make you better.  In real life they would become FA, and you wouldn't have the right to trade them.  If you can use them to make you better, that does seem to potentially present problems.
If we aren't going to declare until a couple of weeks before the draft anyway, then I am not sure it matters.  The reason we are waiting is because we want to protect against injuries or substantial trades.  So if you haven't declared your keepers then why not be able to trade anybody?  So what if you trade non-keepers to get what you think is a keeper.  What happens if you trade for a player who then gets hurt and is out for the season?  Since we are going to wait to decide because of fear injury, why should players you trade for be immune from this protection.  Look at it this way.  I plan to keep Dirk and Ray Allen.  Now in a moment of lost sanity Bod trades me Kevin Garnett for Steve Francis.  So I decide to keep Dirk and Garnett.  Now Garnett and Ray Allen get hurt in training camp, and are out for the season.  I am stuck with Garnett as one of my keepers.  If I hadn't made the trade, then I could have kept Dirk and Redd.  Why should I be able to see if Ray Allen gets hurt, but I don't get that same option with Garnett.

I look at this as our league, and we can do it however we want.  We not need to necessarily make it look like the NBA, or any other league.  There may be some restrictions with Yahoo software, and how it would handle the draft, and obviously we have to work within those restrictions.
I am in agreement with Drom on not allowing players to be held by teams over and over and over.  This makes the randomness of the first draft critically important, forever.  How you actually deal with that is not so easy though.  I mean the notion that Garnett, Duncan, Nowitski, McGrady, Marion, all becoming FA at the same time, creates some issues.  How you deal with that though is not clear.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

AA Mil

Offline gaither

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2004, 06:12:16 AM »
Uh-oh. I think there must be something funky in the air between my avatar and ziggy's beagles. This is the second time I must say I agree with ziggy (the other on the draft order question).

I don't think that GMs should be able to hold onto their keepers indefinitely. Contracts don't last forever in the real league, and neither should keepers's "contracts" in the FNBA.

I also don't see the problem with allowing trades in the offseason without being forced to use the players involved in the trade as keepers. As long as each team has only 12 players by the time they choose their 2 keepers, it shouldn't matter.

And enough of this middle class warfare talk! Geez, it's bad enough to deal with that kind of talk in the real world! This is a game, remember.  

Guest_Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2004, 09:00:04 AM »
You agree with ziggy on the holdover of free agents? I brought that up! I get no respect! I'm going to kick the crap out of your team this week...oh...wait, it's already over. Congratulations on Hinrich's game last night, which proved to be a backbreaker. I also want to send a shout out to my boy Paul Pierce, who has played like garbage for over a month. I have a feeling he's pouting because his coach quit, but he'll really be pouting if I cut his sorry ass at the end of the season so he can torment the remnants of my team on some other roster.  :(  

Offline gaither

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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2004, 11:18:12 AM »
Drom, I realize that you and Jihad were saying pretty much the same thing. But there are tons of posts between yours and ziggy's post. I responded to ziggy's comments because they were at the end (right before I posted) and were more succinct. You seem to want to take insult where none is/was intended.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2004, 11:20:36 AM by gaither »

Guest_Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2004, 12:15:27 PM »
I was teasing.  ;)  

Joe Vancil

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2004, 04:24:30 PM »
Drom,

What I'm saying is simply using Finley as an example.

If you prefer, use Baron Davis from your team.

You decide to keep Kidd and Webber.  You want to trade Baron Davis to me.  I'm willing to trade you a #3 draft pick and Jerome Williams for Baron Davis and your #9.  You should still be able to keep Kidd and Webber, and not be saddled by Jerome Williams - he becomes one of the folks you drop.

You've got my #3, and I've got your number 9.  I choose Duncan and Davis as my keepers.  You've got 2 keepers and 10 picks, I've got 2 keepers and 10 picks.  The difference is that I've got Davis, while you've got my #3 pick, and I've got your #9 pick.

Personally, I wouldn't do that deal if I were me, but that's just me.  Still, I see nothing wrong with it.

Why should you (or anyone) have to trade a keeper for a keeper?  Why not trade a keeper for improved position in the draft, if you can find someone willing to do that?

                                                       Joe
 

Offline Derek Bodner

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2004, 04:31:30 PM »
If someone offers me a 3rd round pick + a junk player whom I will drop, for Zach Randolph (who I won't keep) and a 4th, how is that a trade?  I'm moving up a round in the draft for nothing.  IMO that's not a trade, that's an auction to the highest bidder.  If I'm moving up in the draft for free, how is that not helping the rich get richer, and the weak weaker?

When in reality, Zach randolph would have been dropped, and available for one of the 6 worst whom would have the top 6 picks anyway.

To avoid these "no brainer/no risk" situations teams with depth would face, that's why I have instituded the "keep whom you trade for" provision.

As for the # of keepers, that stays at 2.  That's what the league was based around when it started, that's what teams built their teams around, that's the way it stays.

and bbf, whom are you to talk about the unfair advantage of having stud keepers when you drafted 2nd, passed on kg, and then traded dirk?  ;)

My whole theory is  based around the belief that it takes depth, of about 5-8 very good/great players, to win a championship in this league, not one or two.  And that depth is much harder to acquire than 1-2 keepers.

Let's look at our bottom dwellers this year.

Ted has two of the best keepers in the league (marion and LeBron).  The rest of his lineup, however, is waiver wire trash (no offense ted).

BBF drafted 2nd, traded the 2nd pick for 15th pick and a waiver wire, dime a dozen shooting guard.

Poo Poo has Kobe (whom will most likely be a top 2 sg again next year), Marbury (3rd ranked pg and top 10 player), and pau gasol.  In fact, he may have the best keepers possible (if kobe doesn't go to jail, heh).  He drafted 5th.

Scrubs, well, scrubs drafted 6th, and we all know about her trades, heh.

Stud keepers who went well past first round: peja, big ben, kiri, francis (on a normal year), kobe, marbury, and the list goes on and on.

Only one of the top 5 teams drafted in the top 6 of the league.

IMO, the league is more about great depth than 1 stud player.  1 Stud (which is all anyone's talking about) doesn't win this league.  Why am I struggling?  Because of my gross overrating of Jason Terry's bounce back year and my inability to find a consistent keeper guard to pair with KG.  In other words, my late 2nd round pick was a bust so far this year.

My theory is that depth is the one attribute that will allow dynasties to emerge, not one player.  So my goal is that preventing one's acquired depth from helping them for years to come (which would happen with 5 keepers or with trading players freely in the offseason).

Offline Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2004, 09:51:35 PM »
OK...what about a limit on the amount of years a manager can hold a keeper?

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2004, 09:38:44 AM »
Well...? What about it?

Offline Derek Bodner

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2004, 10:35:16 AM »
Sorry, was gone the entire weekend.

Dunno, that's something to think about.  But 2 things:
1) if we have this league going long enough to have to worry about that, then all is well, IMO.
2) How are you supposed to force someone to trade a guy.  Seems like it would pin managers into accepting bad trades.

Guest_Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2004, 10:56:22 AM »
You wouldn't have to trade him, you'd just lose the rights to him after a year or two. I'm in a keeper league after next season, and the managers in that league have one, two and three year contracts. They are then able to renew a player for up to five years, provided one contract is a three year, and the other is a two year. They only have a couple three year contracts, and what this does is force managers to make personnel decisions. The difference between that league and this one is they have five keepers and a rookie keeper.

Since this league will only involve two keepers, I believe the managers should only have one one year and one two year contract. This forces managers to constantly update their keepers on a yearly basis. It also gives people like me a chance. I didn't have a good draft spot last year, and I won't have a good one this year. That, and I don't have the luxury of building around a Garnett or a Duncan. I don't have anything close to that, but this would give me a chance in a year or two. If this league is really about keeping people from building dynasties, then this should be a rule which is implemented. Dynasties are founded upon star players, such as Bill Russell or Michael Jordan, and as it stands now, the teams that benefit are the teams that got to draft early this year, regardless of how they did this year. That seems unfair.

Guest_Dromedarius

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2004, 01:58:13 PM »
Quote
Only one of the top 5 teams drafted in the top 6 of the league.

Also, this has me baffled. You, Joe and the short Hispanic guy all picked in the Top Four. ziggy, Gen Hex, lttk and myself drafted #8 or later. This statement doesn't make any sense to me.  :blink:
 

bbf78253

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2004, 09:35:13 AM »
Quote
Quote
Only one of the top 5 teams drafted in the top 6 of the league.

Also, this has me baffled. You, Joe and the short Hispanic guy all picked in the Top Four. ziggy, Gen Hex, lttk and myself drafted #8 or later. This statement doesn't make any sense to me.  :blink:
I believe that it has to do with many of the top draft teams are fairly new to fantasy ball (this is my second year) and don't spend large amounts of time analyzing the players.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Keeper questions about the FNBA league.
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2004, 05:42:04 PM »
Proposed by someone else.

You may keep 1 keeper 2 years and another keeper 1 year.

Sound fair?

It's determined by who is declared as keepers at the beginning of the year.  So if I trade KG, but 2 weeks later trade him back, my 2 years don't start over.