NBA power rankings. The media is starting to agree with me!

[Derek Bodner]

The Lakers didn't draft Shaq or Kobe in the top 5

He's the one exception I mentioned.  Drafted by lakers, all-league, but he did fall.

If you read what I wrote, I did mention there was one.  One in 25 years.

Houston looks to be doing very well and they don't have a top 5 drafted player going into the draft either.

Has Houston ever won a PLAYOFF SERIES with this group?  Come back to me when they do.

BTW, wasn't Yao drafted top 5?  My memory might be failing me.  Since we are apparently counting regular season accomplishments in the list of championship teams, Yao did contribute to the first 12 games of this winning streak.

Wasn't Charles Barkley at top 5 pick?  What did he do for the 76ers in terms of championships?

How does that disprove what I wrote? 

The draft isn't a guarantee that you'll become a championship contender, but it is virtually guaranteed that without a top 5 pick, you don't have a shot.

I will say in my haste of typing, I didn't type that exactly how I wanted it.  I meant "you don't have a shot to win a championship", but my point is I did say that getting a top 5 pick doesn't guarantee a championship, so I'm glad you agree with me.

You should jump for joy because you have players who are coming into their own and learning what it takes to battle against solid teams

Too bad we don't have a SUPERSTAR, which is the hardest thing to get in this league.  More specifically, we don't have a 2-way dominating big man, which outside of MJ (who was just that good) and the Pistons (who are an anomaly), is a prerequisite to winning a championship.  Your quoting of the Suns and other such teams "having a chance" exactly proves my point.  Is there a reason WHY they've always been a good regular season team, and not a champion?  Is there a reason the Mavs have fallen short?  And that Tim Duncan continually wins?  That Hakeem continually won?  That Shaq continually won?

You think confidence is overrated and I think you are VERY VERY wrong on that.

Did confidence make the spurs champions, or did Tim Duncan?  Did confidence provide the rockets with a 20 win improvement in '84-'85, or was it the drafting of Hakeem?  Once you get talent, you gain confidence.  Doing it the other way around results in small surges like the Bucks and Bulls previously mentioned.  Confidence without talent isn't sustainable.

The Sixers are now a mid-pack team.  Good.  Not great.  Not championship contender, and not with enough potential on the roster to develop into one.  They're still that franchise level player away, and this immediate success (and retaining of Andre Miller thus keeping us from having max cap room for free agency in the offseason) has made it significantly harder to obtain that talent.  You don't get superstars with the 17th pick in the draft. The transition from good to great is incredibly difficult in today's salary capped, cba nba.  The amount of contenders that are built around superstars they themselves drafted far outweighs the amount of good teams who gradually improve to great.

Dabods would a working example of this be lets see how Portland does next year vs Philly?

Kinda.  A working example of this would be who has the better shot of winning a championship in the next 10 years.  Portland finished with the 6th worst record last year, got some luck, and is now looking stacked in the future.  Just shows the value of getting in the top 7 of the lottery.  After that, you more or less don't move up.

BTW...the Sixers never would have got the top 5 pick had they tanked the season when Rick and yourself brought it up.

I've been saying this since February of last year.  Keeping Andre Miller have given us some nice immediate gains, but have handicapped our future.  No, trading him in February of this year was too far into the process, you are correct.  This is not when I wanted him traded, however.  You have to take a chance to get that superstar, and we've missed our chance.

If they tanked this season and never learned they had it in them to compete it doesn't matter if they picked up a Kevin Love or a Lopez brother would it?

I don't think anyone believes Kevin Love (or Robin Lopez) are franchise players.  Brook Lopez might be, but I don't believe he's coming out anyway.

Yes, I believe if we had a Beasley or Brook Lopez it would do wonders for us.  Maybe not next year, but it would give us a better shot of reaching that championship status.

[westkoast]

The Lakers didn't draft Shaq or Kobe in the top 5

He's the one exception I mentioned.  Drafted by lakers, all-league, but he did fall.

Right and they won 3 rings, had 4 finals appearances, that same player is also on another squad that is a contender.

Has Houston ever won a PLAYOFF SERIES with this group?  Come back to me when they do.

Nope but to say they can't is not true.  They seem to be a contender without a top 5 drafted player right?

BTW, wasn't Yao drafted top 5?  My memory might be failing me.  Since we are apparently counting regular season accomplishments in the list of championship teams, Yao did contribute to the first 12 games of this winning streak.

Maybe your memory is failing you.  HE IS NOT GOING TO BE BACK THIS SEASON.  Btw...the last team to win this many games in a row did have a shot at the championship.  If your team is a contender you cannot be upset.

How does that disprove what I wrote? 

The fact that a top 5 drafted player doesn't guarantee you a championship?  How many top 5 players drafted have never won a title?  A LOT.  Kevin Garnett...Karl Malone....Charles Barkley....Domnique Wilkens....Pat Ewing....I could go on and on.

Think of how bad a bust guys like Darko, Kwame have been.

Too bad we don't have a SUPERSTAR, which is the hardest thing to get in this league.  More specifically, we don't have a 2-way dominating big man, which outside of MJ (who was just that good) and the Pistons (who are an anomaly), is a prerequisite to winning a championship.  Your quoting of the Suns and other such teams "having a chance" exactly proves my point.  Is there a reason WHY they've always been a good regular season team, and not a champion?  Is there a reason the Mavs have fallen short?  And that Tim Duncan continually wins?  That Hakeem continually won?  That Shaq continually won?

The Suns SHOULD have won the title last year.  I don't think anyone can really debate that they got jobbed by a bad decisions on the leagues part.  Dallas didn't lose because they had no post presence BTW.  They lost for a whole different reason.

The reason Tim Duncan continues to win is, in large part, due to the fact the Spurs have developed young and quality talent.  Once they got the talent they learned how to win, build confidence, and gained experience.  All things the Sixers are currently doing.  Something they wouldn't have done had they tanked the season like you wanted to get a chance at a 6-11 pick.  Had the Spurs not developed young talent there would be no SA core and after D-Rob left they wouldn't have won another championship.

Did confidence make the spurs champions, or did Tim Duncan?  Did confidence provide the rockets with a 20 win improvement in '84-'85, or was it the drafting of Hakeem?  Once you get talent, you gain confidence.  Doing it the other way around results in small surges like the Bucks and Bulls previously mentioned.  Confidence without talent isn't sustainable. 

Yes it did.  In fact Tim Duncan has spoken on gaining confidence thanks to David Robinson mentoring him and teaching him the game.

Confidence helped provide the Lakers with a title.  They had the same core of guys 2 years prior to that (for the most part) and couldn't get out of the 2nd round.  Phil Jackson shows up, instills come confidence, they win the title.

How about Michael Jordan's Bulls?  Once he showed confidence in his teammates and they showed confidence in their roles they won championships. 

The Sixers are now a mid-pack team.  Good.  Not great.  Not championship contender.  The transition from good to great is incredibly difficult in today's salary capped, cba nba.  The amount of contenders that are built around superstars they themselves drafted far outweighs the amount of good teams who gradually improve to great.

Baby steps.  Baby steps.  Tell me who from the draft do you see as a player that would do this team better then what they are getting from this streak.  Don't mention a top 3 pick because there was no way Philly was going to get it regardless.  I want you to name someone who is going to be in the draft this year that would have had a huge impact right away to where this team would be the team it is now, a mid pack team who is not afraid of the Detroit, Spurs, and Celtics of the league.

I've been saying this since February of last year.  Keeping Andre Miller have given us some nice immediate gains, but have handicapped our future.  No, trading him in February of this year was too far into the process, you are correct.  This is not when I wanted him traded, however.  You have to take a chance to get that superstar, and we've missed our chance.

Not if the stock of young players shoots up in the next few years because of their ability to play at a high level.

I don't think anyone believes Kevin Love (or Robin Lopez) are franchise players.  Brook Lopez might be, but I don't believe he's coming out anyway.

Right but those are the type of guys who I see end up going later rather then earlier.  Kevin Love has a lot of hype but no way he goes top 5 even if UCLA gets deep in the tournament. 

Yes, I believe if we had a Beasley or Brook Lopez it would do wonders for us.  Maybe not next year, but it would give us a better shot of reaching that championship status.

What the Sixers are doing right now is doing wonders for all the other players, the coach, the fans, and management.  The rest of these players are getting better.  Mo Cheeks is improving as a coach and the players will be loyal and listen now that they've seen the success.  The fans are going to start packing the arena which means more $$$ for the franchise to spend on potential players.  Management now has more incentive to really pump more money into th eball club instead of playing Clippers type games in the front office.

Say you got Brook Lopez and you never got to see Igs learn that he take it up a notch, that guy you mentioned that was a stud (forget who you said now in another thread) might not have turned into a stud had the Sixers tanked it....etc.

Btw...god its nice to have a debate about a team not the Lakers or Spurs.

[Derek Bodner]

Right and they won 3 rings, had 4 finals appearances, that same player is also on another squad that is a contender.

Right.  Which I said was the one exception.

Nope but to say they can't is not true.  They seem to be a contender without a top 5 drafted player right?

My entire argument is based off of teams who win championships.  Come back to me when they win one.  And no, without Yao, I don't consider them likely to win a championship.

The Suns SHOULD have won the title last year.  I don't think anyone can really debate that they got jobbed by a bad decisions on the leagues part.  Dallas didn't lose because they had no post presence BTW.  They lost for a whole different reason.

I don't care who SHOULD win.  A championship team wins.  There are a lot of "what ifs" in sports.  The suns, despite all their talent, haven't been able to put it together.  And now they're panicking.

As for dallas, notice I said dominant 2-way big men.

The reason Tim Duncan continues to win is, in large part, due to the fact the Spurs have developed young and quality talent.  Once they got the talent they learned how to win, build confidence, and gained experience

Right, they got the talent, THEN build confidence.  All the confidence in the world doesn't make them champions without tim duncan.

Yes it did.  In fact Tim Duncan has spoken on gaining confidence thanks to David Robinson mentoring him and teaching him the game.

They went from 20-62 without Duncan to 56-26 with duncan.  Obviously, there were mitigating circumstances (RE: Robinson's injury), but that actually proves my point.  The fact that they won 20 games didn't prevent them from turning it around when they got the talent (Robinson coming back and Duncan getting drafted).

BTW, I'm not sure what having a veteran mentor has to do with gaining confidence from winning.

Confidence helped provide the Lakers with a title.  They had the same core of guys 2 years prior to that (for the most part) and couldn't get out of the 2nd round.  Phil Jackson shows up, instills come confidence, they win the title.

Once again, talent first, confidence second. 

How about Michael Jordan's Bulls?  Once he showed confidence in his teammates and they showed confidence in their roles they won championships.

Which happened because?  Did he get confidence in his teammates because they WON, or because he got more talent?  Did the Bulls ever have a winning record before Pippen was drafted?

Don't mention a top 3 pick because there was no way Philly was going to get it regardless

Why?  I'm not talking about tanking in February 2008.  I'm talking about making moves in February 2007 that would have put the Sixers in a better position to obtain talent.  You remove Andre Miller from this team, get Louis Williams more playing time, and start Thad from the beginning, not only would this team have a shot at a top 3 pick, but their young players would be much further along in their development process.  Andre Miller helps them remain competitive now, but he's already hinted at exploring his options on the west coast when he's a free agent after that year.  And he'll be 33 at that time.

I want you to name someone who is going to be in the draft this year that would have had a huge impact right away to where this team would be the team it is now, a mid pack team who is not afraid of the Detroit, Spurs, and Celtics of the league.

I don't care about right away.  Getting knocked out in the first round this year will be fun, but it's not my goal.  Getting to a "mid pack team who is not afraid of Detroit" isn't exactly the bar I'm aiming for.  I'm willing to take a step back to take two steps forward.

Right but those are the type of guys who I see end up going later rather then earlier.  Kevin Love has a lot of hype but no way he goes top 5 even if UCLA gets deep in the tournament.

So why are we talking about him again?  I've been talking about a top 5 pick the entire time, and you bring up Kevin Love, who you admit is not a top 5 pick?  I'm confused.

Say you got Brook Lopez and you never got to see Igs learn that he take it up a notch, that guy you mentioned that was a stud (forget who you said now in another thread) might not have turned into a stud had the Sixers tanked it....etc.

Sure it would have.  "Tanking" (I prefer to call it building for the future) involves playing the young players.  Thaddeus SHOULD have been starting from the get-go.  There's no reason to have Reggie Evans in your starting lineup, or even Willie Green, both of who have peaked.  We could have developed talent MORE, not less.  If you trade Andre Miller, get an extra draft pick, and more cap space, you OPEN UP room for Louis Williams, not decrease it.  You increase Andre Iguodala's role in the offense, not decrease it.  I'm not talking about going to Andre Iguodala in a time out and saying "son, throw the ball to Kevin Garnett.  He's that big, lanky guy over there who's been getting all the rebounds.  We want to lose this game".  I'm talking about making GM decisions that get your young players more playing time, and realize the steps needed to get that superstar to build around.

I'm not sitting here saying that confidence is worthless.  What I am saying is that you need to acquire talent first, then build confidence.   Gaining confidence by winning just enough to lose in the first round of the playoffs without that superstar on your roster makes it infinitely harder to acquire said talent and superstar.  It's why teams who have done it that way have had a hard time sustaining success.

The Celtics got Bird, then gained confidence.  They were 29-53 the year before they drafted Bird, and that didn't shatter the teams confidence when they got the talent.  They got the talent, then were able to build around that and gain the confidence.  The Rockets were 29-53, got Hakeem, then built confidence.  The Bulls were 27-55, got Michael Jordan, got pieces around him, THEN got confidence.  Same thing with the Cavs and LeBron, same thing with the Magic and Dwight.  You get talent, then confidence. 

If we had the person I thought was a superstar waiting to develop, I would agree.  But I don't see that on the roster.  Therefore, I believe becoming a 41-41 team who loses in the first round detracts from our ability to get the superstar, and in the end will make becoming a championship contender more difficult.

[rickortreat]

Unlike Dabods, I don't think we're that far away.

In theory, a back to the basket player who can give us 15-20 and 10 boards would put us on a level with Detroit and Boston.

But the odds of getting that player through the draft is better than through free agency.  Chances are, anyone who can do that for the Sixers will require them to give up significant talent, either for salary cap or to induce the other team to trade.

IF we can add this player without giving up one of our starters, we will contend, but I don't know if he exists anywhere.  Dwight Howard would be ideal.  Antwain Jamison? Josh Smith? Elton Brand?

Stefanski said he was going to try to get a 4 this summer through free agency.  We'll see who he comes up with.

We don't have that superstar that Dabods talked about, but we have several All-Star players in potential.  Igoudala would have been an All-Star this year if the Sixers had a winning record. Louis Williams would be on his way to being an All-Star if he wasn't behind Andre Miller, and Thadeus Young will turn out to have been the steal of last year's draft, also a projected All-Star.  Along with Andre Miller and some seasoning, that really should be enough with the rebounding the Sixers have.  It's just that they need that post player - which really is essential to winning a title.

Phoenix got Shaq just for that reason. It's why Boston got Garnett.  It's why San Antonio is the team that keeps winning.  Gotta have the big man in the middle.  The Chamberlain, The Russell, The Jabbar, The Malone, The Olajuwon, The O'Neil. That's pretty much what it takes to win a championship in the NBA.

[Ted]

Karl Malone was picked 13th in 1985.

He was the second of the two greatest consecutive mid-round draft selections ever, after John Stockton who was picked 16th in 1984.

[WayOutWest]

Quick, outside of the Pistons, find me an NBA champion in the last 25 years that didn't draft an all-league caliber player in the top 5.  I'll give you a hint.  There is one.  They drafted an all-league caliber player, but it was outside of the top 5.  That is the only team.

Can't think of one.  Since 83 you have the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Sixers, Rockets and Spurs.  Every one of those teams had a top 5 pick.

Lakers had Magic, Kareem, Worthy and Shaq.  Celtics had McHale.  Bulls had MJ.  Sixers had Jones.  Rockets had Dream.  Spurs had TD and DRob.  So I really don't know the answer.

[Skandery]

Karl Malone was picked 13th in 1985.

He was the second of the two greatest consecutive mid-round draft selections ever, after John Stockton who was picked 16th in 1984.

I'll take this one Derek . . .

"and they didn't win a championship!"

[westkoast]

There is NO ONE in this draft that is going to make the Sixers win a championship.  NO ONE.   In fact out of the last 5 drafts I can only think of 2 top 5 picks that would put them to the top. Why debate over winning the championship instead of being contender when there is a lot more factors to winning the championship other then personnel.

[Derek Bodner]

There is NO ONE in this draft that is going to make the Sixers win a championship.  NO ONE.   In fact out of the last 5 drafts I can only think of 2 top 5 picks that would put them to the top. Why debate over winning the championship instead of being contender when there is a lot more factors to winning the championship other then personnel.

BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT THE PERSONNEL.

And I disagree with your assertion.  How you can possibly make that call at this point of the draft I have no idea.  Most experts agree you can't even rate a draft until 3-4 years after the fact.  I think there are a LOT of really good prospects in this draft (Beasley, Rose, Lopez, Bayless, Gordon), which is more top heavy than most drafts IMO.

[westkoast]

There is NO ONE in this draft that is going to make the Sixers win a championship.  NO ONE.   In fact out of the last 5 drafts I can only think of 2 top 5 picks that would put them to the top. Why debate over winning the championship instead of being contender when there is a lot more factors to winning the championship other then personnel.

BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT THE PERSONNEL.

And I disagree with your assertion.  How you can possibly make that call at this point of the draft I have no idea.  Most experts agree you can't even rate a draft until 3-4 years after the fact.  I think there are a LOT of really good prospects in this draft (Beasley, Rose, Lopez, Bayless, Gordon), which is more top heavy than most drafts IMO.

It's not impossible to win a championship without a team drafting a top 5 pick.  Or with out having a top 5 pick on your team.  Detroit has done it and they could do it again this year.  The Lakers did not draft Shaq.  The Suns would have blown the Cavs off the floor last year.

I don't see any player in the draft who looks like they will become a Charles Barkley,  Allen Iverson,  Lebron James,  Kevin Garnett, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady...let alone a Michael Jordan, Shaq O'Neal, and a Tim Duncan.

Btw DB you might have heard of this thing called signing free agents.  I know its tough for a city like Philly to land free agents but some do move for the money.  If the team is playing better then more fans pump money into the franchise, they get more national games, more dollars.  The more dollars the Sixers have the more likely they will shell out big bucks for a player.

[Derek Bodner]

As I've said, Detroit's the exception rather than the rule.

If you do not see top 5 talent who can turn the team around, how do you see top 13 talent (ala bryant) who can?

The point being, it is a necessity to draft an all-league caliber player in order to win a championship in the nba, all but the Pistons have.  And your odds of drafting said player are infinitely higher if you have a top 5 pick, as all but Kobe Bryant were selected there. 

Btw DB you might have heard of this thing called signing free agents.  I know its tough for a city like Philly to land free agents but some do move for the money.  If the team is playing better then more fans pump money into the franchise, they get more national games, more dollars.  The more dollars the Sixers have the more likely they will shell out big bucks for a player.

1) Revenue is virtually irrelevant in todays NBA.  The Sixers problem has never been revenue, but salary cap positioning.
2) While the Sixers are in good cap space (roughly $10 million available), they're not in position to offer a max contract.  Had they traded Andre Miller?  Then they would be.  Do you see Elton Brand option out for a $10 million contract?  Neither do I.  Do you see Charlotte not matching a contract for Okafor at $10 million?  Neither do I.

[Randy]

While Philly is at a disavantage of being a smaller market team -- they have a tremendous advantage in being one of the few teams in the league who have shown that they are willing to snub their nose at the salary cap (NY, Portland, Dallas and the Lakers being the other teams).  They aren't presently over the cap but if a big man could be had that would help the Sixers become a contender, I think they would be willing to go over the cap once again.

I started to post earlier to this topic -- it's important that the Sixers get the RIGHT big man to come to their team.  There are big guys out there who have proven they are 20/10 guys that they don't want (Randolph is a perfect example).  The Sixers want someone who can come in and help the offense, not destroy it (see my whole comment about Yao and the Rockets).  

[rickortreat]

Smaller market?  Don't believe that crap, Philly might have dropped to 5th or 6th largest city, but the population in the surrounding area is still the 4th largest concentration of people in the country.

Besides, they are owned by Comcast, who makes a ton of money, and has a very good deal on their wholly owned stadium.

They could choose to go over the salary cap to get Brand, sign him and then sign Andre Igoudala and the others.

It would be a smart move if they could do it.  It really would put them into immediate contention, IMO.  Which would fill the arena to make it revenue neutral.

Of course, that depends on Brand being healthy.

[Randy]

Smaller market?  Don't believe that crap, Philly might have dropped to 5th or 6th largest city, but the population in the surrounding area is still the 4th largest concentration of people in the country.

Besides, they are owned by Comcast, who makes a ton of money, and has a very good deal on their wholly owned stadium.

They could choose to go over the salary cap to get Brand, sign him and then sign Andre Igoudala and the others.

It would be a smart move if they could do it.  It really would put them into immediate contention, IMO.  Which would fill the arena to make it revenue neutral.

Of course, that depends on Brand being healthy.

I called the Sixers a small market team based on their revenue rather than on any sentimental reason you might have, Rick.  Even when the Sixers were in the NBA finals, they never generated the revenue needed to be considered a big market team.

Umm, as for their ownership and their ability to go over the cap, if you actually read my post, I stated that very thing!