Author Topic: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.  (Read 1303 times)

Offline Reality

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Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« on: March 03, 2008, 12:12:41 AM »
We had a thread on this before, i can't find it now.
When your team is on defense, ahead by 3 and the other team only has one more shot attempt, you should foul before they get a trey attempt up.  Especially if they come inside the 3 pt line, that should be auto foul.

Phildo Jackson and the Lakers elected to let Dallas get a last shot off in regulation even tho Dallas inbounded the ball to Jason Kidd inside the arc!  Sasha had plenty of time to foul Kidd.  Instead Kidd went back to Dirk and boom, three pointer for the tie.  Apparantly Phildo worried about some scenario of
made ft
missed ft on purpose
rebound putback for tie.

It hardly ever happens.  It's a failure strategy.  Fouling is the way to go. 
In the end Kobsters 26th and 27th freethrows sealed it in overtime.

Laker posters, be honest, did you soil your designer depends when Dirk hit in regulation?
nevermind, you did.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 09:45:16 AM »
Phil Jackson said the reason they did not foul in that situation was there was a number of 3 point threats on the court and they did not want to chance 3 FTs or a potential 4 point play.  Phil said if Dirk tried to put it on the floor to foul him but not to hit him if he goes straight up.  They didn't actually need to foul had Odom asked any of say the 20,000 people in the building who knew where the ball was going to go.
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2008, 10:02:10 AM »
We had a thread on this before, i can't find it now.
When your team is on defense, ahead by 3 and the other team only has one more shot attempt, you should foul before they get a trey attempt up.  Especially if they come inside the 3 pt line, that should be auto foul.

It all depends.   Do you trust your defense?  Do you trust your own FT shooters?  In the case of the defense the answer is yes.  PJ is one of those coaches who doesn't believe in the foul philosophy.  Different coaches have different standards.  Plus the Mavs are the best at the FT and you don't really want to get into a FT shooting contest with them cause every team in the league will lose vs the Mavs.

Phildo Jackson and the Lakers elected to let Dallas get a last shot off in regulation even tho Dallas inbounded the ball to Jason Kidd inside the arc!  Sasha had plenty of time to foul Kidd.  Instead Kidd went back to Dirk and boom, three pointer for the tie.  Apparantly Phildo worried about some scenario of
made ft
missed ft on purpose
rebound putback for tie.

It hardly ever happens.  It's a failure strategy.  Fouling is the way to go. 
In the end Kobsters 26th and 27th freethrows sealed it in overtime.

I doubt any coach worries about that scenario, don't know why you even bring it up.  Did you read that somewhere?  Basic strategy when you are losing is to extend the game, fouling would do that and play into the Mavs hands.  3 pointers are difficult enough with standard defense, playing solid defense above the arc against them should be enough.

Laker posters, be honest, did you soil your designer depends when Dirk hit in regulation?
nevermind, you did.

Nope, not with the best player in the game today on the side of the Lakers.  Now that Kwame is gone the Lakers don't have to worry about someone being STUPID enough to foul Dirk at the rim for a game winning "and-1".
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Offline Reality

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2008, 11:23:40 AM »
Phildo Jackson and the Lakers elected to let Dallas get a last shot off in regulation even tho Dallas inbounded the ball to Jason Kidd inside the arc!  Sasha had plenty of time to foul Kidd.  Instead Kidd went back to Dirk and boom, three pointer for the tie.  Apparantly Phildo worried about some scenario of
made ft
missed ft on purpose
rebound putback for tie.

It hardly ever happens.  It's a failure strategy.  Fouling is the way to go. 
In the end Kobsters 26th and 27th freethrows sealed it in overtime.

I doubt any coach worries about that scenario, don't know why you even bring it up.  Did you read that somewhere?  Basic strategy when you are losing is to extend the game, fouling would do that and play into the Mavs hands.  3 pointers are difficult enough with standard defense, playing solid defense above the arc against them should be enough.
yes they do worry about it and yes someone did do a statistical breakdown.  The chances of a 2nd ft miss/rebound/made putback all happening is much lower then a treybomb dropping like Dirks did.
Lakers were ahead by 3 with only :06 left on the clock.  What do you mean by "ft shooting contest"?
Had Kidd made the 1st ft he would have surely bricked the 2nd on purpose.  Should the Lakers get the rebound they are still ahead by two with what, 4 seconds left.  Even if the Lakers bricked the ft(s) they would then only need to defend up 2 with 4 ticks left.

I'll see where i can find the article with stats breakdown.

bty way Gasol fouled Stackhouse immediately after Stack released.  I do not have a problem with the no call, just wish the NBA would be consistent on after the release hand to hand contact.  Stack really should have faked the shot, Gasol was way overcommited, would have plowed right into Stackhouse who could then just flail the ball up to get 3 fts.

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 11:45:32 AM »
bty way Gasol fouled Stackhouse immediately after Stack released.  I do not have a problem with the no call, just wish the NBA would be consistent on after the release hand to hand contact.  Stack really should have faked the shot, Gasol was way overcommited, would have plowed right into Stackhouse who could then just flail the ball up to get 3 fts.

I've seen it go several ways.  I've seen players kick out ala Reggie Miller and get the call and I've seen defenders run into the player with no call.  I am not sure if I want the rule to be like the kicker rule in foot ball, once the shot is released if you touch the guy it should be a foul.  There is a good argument for both sides. 

Stackhouse shold have passed it underneath for a dunk, I think it was Bass who was wide open.  The other bad shot was Dirk in OT, he had plenty of time to pump fake and get an open look or draw contact from Gasol.  Dirk got a BS call against Odom late in the game, he would have easily drawn one against Gasol.  Instead he took a fade away 3 with a 7 footer running at him.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2008, 11:59:52 AM »
Nope, not with the best player in the game today on the side of the Lakers.  Now that Kwame is gone the Lakers don't have to worry about someone being STUPID enough to foul Dirk at the rim for a game winning "and-1".
How about Gasol fouling Kidd at the rim?
Ahead 105-102 with 10 seconds left.
Kidd hits layup (105-104) and Gasol fouls  for +1.
Kidd misses ft to bail Gasol.

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2008, 12:25:48 PM »
Nope, not with the best player in the game today on the side of the Lakers.  Now that Kwame is gone the Lakers don't have to worry about someone being STUPID enough to foul Dirk at the rim for a game winning "and-1".
How about Gasol fouling Kidd at the rim?
Ahead 105-102 with 10 seconds left.
Kidd hits layup (105-104) and Gasol fouls  for +1.
Kidd misses ft to bail Gasol.


Like you said it was against Kidd, NOT Dirk.  Not to mention it was a 7 footer defending a guard, not the other way around.  Only Kobe should get up there to block 7 footers CLEAN like he did on Shaq, everyone else should keep their hands in thier pockets when a 7 footer is going to the rim.  It was a stupid foul cause Gasol didn't keep his hands strait up nor did he foul hard to ensure he didn't make the shot.  Still, Gasol jersey's are HOT sellers, he has become a huge piece to the Laker championship puzzle!
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Laker Fan

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Re: Ahead 3 and not fouling, Phil escapes.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2008, 03:29:22 PM »
Bad calls both ways, the most glaring were to clearly flagrant fouls by Dampier on Kobe, especially on Kobe's breakaway in the 3rd, HORRIBLE NO FLAGRANT CALL, as deliberate a put a player on his back without even a hint of playing for the ball as I have ever seen. I believe he committed all 6 fouls on Kobe and they were just about all rough and thuggish, just what you would expect from someone who has no real defensive skills to speak of.

Kobe got away with a very clear travel going right to left in the 4th, Dirks ridiculous flop against Odom in the 4th drawing a foul on Odom, I could go on and on, terribly called game. Dallas' method of hanging all over Kobe after he went 3-7 from the stripe blew up in their faces when Kobe went into a zone and destroyed the best FT shooting team in the NBA at their own game and Avery Johnson is just flat not good enough a coach to recognize when a strategy is failing and adjust. This is a team that had more than enough talent to win it all 2 years ago, more than enough to win it all last year, and IMHO, you have to look at their coach as much as you do their Euro-soft franchise player.
Dan