Author Topic: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.  (Read 5186 times)

Offline rickortreat

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2007, 12:40:25 PM »
I actually like Young as a player, but I don't want a 6-7 or 6-8 Power Forward.  That just won't get it done.  I want a 6 10 - 6 11 250 lb. Player with coordination and post up moves.  I had thought that Thornton was bigger than Young, but since he isn't.,

I think it would be dangerous to get rid of Miller until you are sure Williams is a point- Williams looks like another AI to me in terms of scoring ability, but more coachable. You may want him at the two with Miller at the one and AI at the three.  The problem with that is that means starting two 6 2 guards which is too small.

Miller has a very good post-up game for a guard and is able to run the offense competently- however he is too slow on both ends of the floor a defensive liability and too easy to stop on offense because other guards can get in front of him.  Louis Williams has already demonstrated the ability to penetrate and get to the basket.  He will be getting more PT, only held back by his injury to his toe.

We don't really need Miller, but I don't want to move him unless it gets me that 6-10 6-11 player the team needs.

It has been frustrating to me, knowing that the Sixers are weak up-front.  They actually outrebound most of their opponents, but they get abused on the defensive end. When Dalemebert can stay on the floor and score, and block shots, he's a good player to have, but he's not consistent, and I'm not sure he ever will be.

Rookies get something of a pass from me, it's a lot for some players to deal with all at once.  I think Young will turn into a good player.  Jason Smith seems ok, but a bit weak on the defensive end- a backup at this point if anything.  I want to see Herbert Hill and Shavlik to see what they can do. 

The only ones I wouldn't trade are Igoudala and Williams, and I don't want to get rid of any of the younger players without a proper evaluation.  I think we might be able to package Korver and Dalembert - maybe that would be enough to get that player the team needs. A 20 and 10 PF or Center.

Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2007, 12:45:33 PM »
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There's a difference between "he could be in better shape", and "he's lazy and ineffective because he's out of shape".  I can tell you from watching him this year, he's not ineffective in the minutes he's playing.  Eddy Curry, on the other hand, is.  There's a reason he averages 25 mpg for his career, and a large part of that is being out of shape. 

Where did I say he was ineffective cuz he's out of shape.  That's not the problem.  The problem is he could be more effective if he was in better shape.  Starting off the season 15 pounds over weight and having to play the first part of the season to get into good enough shape is not okay.  How can you even bother to try to argue that?

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Seriously, wk.  Watch the pace that Miller plays at, and the pace that Curry plays at.  Watch the effort that Miller exudes on the court, and the effort Curry exudes on the court.  This isn't even close.   

Once again, I never said Curry plays harder then Miller.  I said that they need someone who can actually score close to the rim.  That is why he was brought up.  The Sixers have no legit inside threat so they are pretty much a jump shooting team with players who do slash from time to time.

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I think that your assertion that his work ethic is poor is wrong.  I see a player that plays hard, plays smart, and obviously puts in his time in practice because he's on the same page as his teammates.   

I think your assertion is wrong because he has had two coaching staff question his work ethic.  The proof is in the pudding.  No NBA team can afford to wait for 20 games for a player to get into the kind of shape they need him in from the begging of training camp.  It hurts the whole squad.  Maybe you don't know what it's like because when you got Andre Miller he already played himself into shape.  This year?  His contract year so of course you will see a different player.  In years past that was not the case.

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He played 1 year with the Clippers.  I'm not sure you can get a definitive read on his effect on his teammates from that one season. 

You can read if the players like him and the coaching enjoy him.  They really didn't and moved him quickly for a reason.  They brought in Sam Cassell to bring to the table what they wanted. 

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And I'd like you to find one player George Karl is entirely happy with his play.

He seemed pretty happy in Seattle.  George Karl is happy with AI.  Everything that comes out of Denver about him is that Karl loves him.

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As for defense, no, I don't think he kills you defensively.  If his opponents could get into the lane at any time they wanted to, they'd have a higher iFG% than 28%.  They'd have a better than the 2/1 assists to turnover ratio they have against him.  He's not a great defender, but he's not a terrible defender either.

I don't think hes great or even good.  Average at best.

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Your assertions that his defense and work ethic are poor I just can't agree with.  Particularly when you're comparing him to EDDY CURRY.

You are the one directly comparing him to Eddy Curry, not me.  Like i've stated multiple times he fills a role the Knicks desperately need and Eddy Curry gives the Sixers a legit post presence. 

There is no reason for any player going against the Sixers to leave their man.  Eddy Curry does command doubles at times whether you want to admit that or not.

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Yao Ming's averaging 2.4 assists per game this year.  That's 4x as many assists as Eddy Curry is.  Think about that for a second.

Right but what is his career average?  1.5.  Would you say all the years before this one that he was not creating space?    And it also helps when you get to pass out to Tracy Mcgrady instead of Nate Robinson lol.

While Eddy Curry doesn't pass well (or at all lol) he commands double teams and players have to cheat towards him...thus the creating space comes into play.  Andre Igs needs his man to cheat off him for just one or two steps and he gets dunks 80% of the time.

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Which is why trying to slap together a trade to win now isn't what the Sixers have in mind.

And who exactly is going to give up a young player with a lot of potential for an aging PG who doesn't work hard in the off-season?



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Are you trying to tell me that no other team would want Andre Miller than the Knicks?  I think that's very wrong.  And what the Knicks would be offering (or what you think the Sixers should pursue) are not what the Sixers need.  Slapping together a few pieces to try to win now isn't going to work, and isn't what the Sixers are looking for.  There are no quick fixes, which is what trading for Eddy Curry would be trying to do.

No what I am saying is that it's easy to pull the rug out from under NY and clearly they need someone who can distribute the ball considering they are dead last in assists per game.

Are you trying to tell me that teams are going to line up to trade one of their young talents with a lot of potential to grab Andre Miller so your Sixers can build pieces for the future?  Sorry.  I don't think that is going to happen.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 12:53:25 PM by westkoast »
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2007, 12:59:31 PM »
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Seriously, wk, you just suggested a guy who averages 0.6 assists per game FOR HIS CAREER should be brought in to help Korver get looks, and compared Eddy Curry's in-game intensity to Andre Miller's.

The madness never stops with westkoast, does it? :D 


Nope...How's that 16-14 record going for your squad under the offensive power known as AK-47?

The Jazz are scoring 3 more points a game but shooting the ball less effectively.  Yet this time last year they had 25 wins.  With 7 game winning streaks...
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 01:04:13 PM by westkoast »
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Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2007, 01:03:40 PM »

The only ones I wouldn't trade are Igoudala and Williams, and I don't want to get rid of any of the younger players without a proper evaluation.  I think we might be able to package Korver and Dalembert - maybe that would be enough to get that player the team needs. A 20 and 10 PF or Center.

Rick, the Sixers don't have enough talent to acquire a 20 and 10 PF/C.  To start with let's look at who qualifies as a 20/10 big man.

There are EXACTLY 29 players averaging over 20 points.  Narrowing that down to just PF/C types leaves this list:
Boozer
Howard
Dirk
Yao
Amare
Bosh
Al Jefferson


Now let's look at which of those players average over 10 rebounds:
Howard
Boozer
Yao
Jefferson  (side note - Jefferson is producing numbers equal to Garnett last year in Minny)


So there are 4 players in the entire NBA that are producing what you want...a 20/10 PF/C.   You could expand that to 6 players by adding Duncan and Garnett.  And exactly which of those 6 do you think are available...even if you throw in the ENTIRE Sixers roster?
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2007, 01:06:15 PM »
I'd like to know how the Sixers would get even a guy of Eddy Curry's quality for what they have with out giving up Andre Ig.
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 01:10:16 PM »
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You are the one directly comparing him to Eddy Curry, not me

I'm going to start off first replying to this, because it's the basis around everything I'm saying.

I first want to start off by saying that I don't think Andre Miller is a great player.  He's probably a mid pack point guard.  Probably somewhere in the 12-15 range of starting point guards in the league.  He absolutely should be traded, because the Sixers aren't going to be competitive while he's still under contract, and his age will begin to be a concern when his contract is up. 

But when you trade one player for another player, you're inherently comparing the players.  When you say Andre Miller isn't effective because he's out of shape, and because he's an average defender, then you go around and trade him for a player who's even more out of shape, and a worse defender, those same problems you traded away are going to pop back up.  It's impossible not to compare the two.  To make matters worse, with Andre Miller I know I have a guy who's not going to complain about his role/touches, a guy who's going to go out and play hard every night, and a guy who's a smart player.  I can't say any of those things about Eddy Curry.

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Are you trying to tell me that teams are going to line up to trade one of their young talents with a lot of potential to grab Andre Miller so your Sixers can build pieces for the future?

Nope.  That's not what the Sixers are looking for.  The Sixers are looking for cap space and mid to late first round picks.  Nobody's looking for Brandon Roy.  On the flip side, we're definitely not looking for Eddy Curry.

Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2007, 01:20:10 PM »
I'd like to know how the Sixers would get even a guy of Eddy Curry's quality for what they have with out giving up Andre Ig.

Eddy Curry's a waste.  If Eddy Curry was a free agent, I wouldn't offer him the MLE.  I wouldn't trade Louis Williams for Eddy Curry.  I wouldn't trade Thad Young for Eddy Curry.  I wouldn't trade dalembert or Miller for Eddy Curry.  If I had a big ole expiring contract, and they just wanted to get rid of Eddy Curry's contract, I wouldn't trade an expiring contract for Eddy Curry.  He's a waste, and a net negative for his team.  This may surprise you because of his dominant low post scoring, but the Knicks are actually a better offensive team with Curry on the bench.  Were last year too.  And we won't even talk about defense.

Seriously, Eddy Curry does nothing to help a team win.  NOTHING.  "Eddy Curry's quality"?  You've got to be kidding me.

Most importantly, acquiring Eddy Curry and trying to patch this into a competitive team is not what the Sixers are looking for.  The Sixers right now have done a good job drafting the last few years (minus Carney), acquiring guys such as Louis Williams, Thad Young, Jason Smith, Korver and Iguodala.  They're looking to shed cap space and continue developing their young talent, and using that cap space to compliment the young talent.  Not only does Eddy Curry STINK, but he has a long contract.

Seriously, you mentioning eddy curry's "quality" made me throw up a little in my mouth.  He's Zach Randolph, but his strengths are less than randolphs, and his deficiencies worse than Randolph.  And portland couldn't give randolph away fast enough.

Offline Reality

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2007, 01:24:01 PM »
  The Sixers right now have done a good job drafting the last few years (minus Carney), acquiring guys such as Louis Williams, Thad Young, Jason Smith, Korver and Iguodala.  They're looking to shed cap space and continue developing their young talent, and using that cap space to compliment the young talent.  Not only does Eddy Curry STINK, but he has a long contract. 
What is the minimal Spur offer you would take for Thad Young.  Realizing you are not looking to move him.  Just asking.  For example you would take Duncan for Young.  Spurs will not do that.  What is the minimal Spur(s) for Young?

Offline westkoast

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2007, 01:26:46 PM »
I'd like to know how the Sixers would get even a guy of Eddy Curry's quality for what they have with out giving up Andre Ig.

Eddy Curry's a waste.  If Eddy Curry was a free agent, I wouldn't offer him the MLE.  I wouldn't trade Louis Williams for Eddy Curry.  I wouldn't trade Thad Young for Eddy Curry.  I wouldn't trade dalembert or Miller for Eddy Curry.  If I had a big ole expiring contract, and they just wanted to get rid of Eddy Curry's contract, I wouldn't trade an expiring contract for Eddy Curry.  He's a waste, and a net negative for his team.  This may surprise you because of his dominant low post scoring, but the Knicks are actually a better offensive team with Curry on the bench.  Were last year too.  And we won't even talk about defense.

Seriously, Eddy Curry does nothing to help a team win.  NOTHING.  "Eddy Curry's quality"?  You've got to be kidding me.

Most importantly, acquiring Eddy Curry and trying to patch this into a competitive team is not what the Sixers are looking for.  The Sixers right now have done a good job drafting the last few years (minus Carney), acquiring guys such as Louis Williams, Thad Young, Jason Smith, Korver and Iguodala.  They're looking to shed cap space and continue developing their young talent, and using that cap space to compliment the young talent.  Not only does Eddy Curry STINK, but he has a long contract.

Seriously, you mentioning eddy curry's "quality" made me throw up a little in my mouth.  He's Zach Randolph, but his strengths are less than randolphs, and his deficiencies worse than Randolph.  And portland couldn't give randolph away fast enough.

In saying "Eddy Curry's quality" was actually a knock to let you know.  Meaning even someone on his level, which isn't that high, that the Sixers could grab.   Rick was bringing up getting 20 and 10 players.  So that is why I said even someone on Eddy Curry's level would be hard to get at this point.   I don't see anyone who is going to give up someone who is young with potential for anyone not involving Andre Igs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 01:28:21 PM by westkoast »
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Offline rickortreat

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2007, 02:22:55 PM »
I'd love a chance to get Howard or Boozer or Jefferson.  Bosh would make me pretty happy too.  Garnett or Duncan would make me ecstatic, but realistically, I don't see any of these things happening.  These types are franchise players, and teams want to add pieces to them, not trade them away.  Boston did a great job in getting Garnett, it makes you wonder why Philly couldn't have done something even more attractive for Minnesota.

I never meant to imply this would be easy.  The Sixers do have some players to move, and they have a few players they really need to evaluate to see what they do have.  For all we know a Healthy Herbert Hill and Shavlik Randolph could be all the Sixers need.

It's not clear where the Sixers are at this point- IMO, they are at best a .500 ball club with their proven players.  That puts them into no-man's land- good enough to maybe make the playoffs, never get a real decent draft pick, never get a chance to assemble enough talent to get to the level where they can contend.  So we're depending on the young talent we have, a rookie or two to come through and cap space to attract a player for next season.  If we could make a free agent trade that gets us closer, that may not be the right way to go, maybe it would be better to loose more and get a better pick!

If you look at their stats, they are a better team than their record.  The key stat I go by is point differential, and over the course of the season, the Sixers rank 17th in the NBA, just ahead of Portland and  Sacramento. If they could improve their free throw shooting and assist to turnover ratio- they could make the playoffs. 

I think if they let Louis Williams and Thad Young play more it would help.  Cheeks is too much in love with Korver and Carney.

Offline Lurker

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2007, 02:39:35 PM »
Boston did a great job in getting Garnett, it makes you wonder why Philly couldn't have done something even more attractive for Minnesota.

Boston gave up a YOUNG 20/10 PF to get Garnett...plus 3 draft picks and cap relief.  Philly had nothing besides the draft picks to offer.  So it is very simple to see why Philly couldn't put together a more attractive package.  There is no reasson to wonder at all.
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Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2007, 02:41:50 PM »
Did I wake up in Bizzaro world or something?  I thought I just read someone thinking that Eddy Curry was a fix for a team's problems.

Eddy Curry is a stiff.  A slightly-better-than-Jerome-James kind of stiff, but a stiff nonetheless.  He isn't a fix for ANYTHING....unless your problem is, "I have a highly talented, well-achieving, hard-working, reasonably-priced team that brings tons of positive intangibles to the table.  How can I screw it up?"

Andre Miller is a starting quality point guard.  He's a smart player, an outstanding passer, a pretty good defender (although not an elite level defender), and generally a good influence for a team.  Karl HATED giving up Miller, and that's seen by the fact that Denver would love to get him back.  Miller's value is low right now - and it generally is.  Miller is a player who is not valued as highly as he should be.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 02:49:09 PM »
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I think your assertion is wrong because he has had two coaching staff question his work ethic.  The proof is in the pudding.

The proof is in the pudding??  Really?  It is unimaginable to me how often you plain just pull things completely out from where the sun don't shine.  Are you saying this with a straight face or is it a joke?  Andre Miller was George Karl's 2nd favorite player on the entire Denver Nugget's squad.  His first favorite being Greg Buckner.  He HATED giving up Andre Miller.  Let me repeat, Karl HATED having to give up Andre Miller but couldn't pass up at the chance for a talent like Iverson.  Please don't take my word for it.  Read these articles with these interesting excerpts that directly refute what you are saying.

=====================

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-28977306_ITM

George Karl wanted Iverson, Miller on the same team.

Byline: Soraya Nadia McDonald

DENVER _ Both coach George Karl and the Nuggets front office were disheartened at the prospect of giving up Andre Miller, who they described as the glue that held the Nuggets together, to get Allen Iverson.

Karl said he wanted Miller and Iverson on the...

=========================

http://www.nba.com/news/349359.html

NBA.com News Flash

Karl  
Dec 20, 2006 11:33am ET
Coach Karl Happy With Trade, Hates To See Miller Go
In the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS, Jim Benton writes ?Nuggets coach George Karl is the envy of many NBA coaches today. But his brethren don't have a son who is a big Andre Miller fan. ?I don't know if my son (Cody) is going to talk to me for about three or four days. He is so mad at me for trading Andre.? Karl, who spent much time with the media praising Miller, said he grudgingly agreed to the trade. But the chance to get a talented player such as Iverson was hard to pass up.?

======================================

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/9880903

"Although Miller is a Karl favorite, he's a necessary sacrifice in a move that will change the landscape of the entire league, because the top two leading scorers in an NBA season have never been brought together in this type of fashion."

=======================================

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/17661

"Karl had hoped to pair point guard Andre Miller with Iverson in a similar situation. But Miller was traded to the 76ers, leaving the Nuggets having only tiny point guards, with 5-5 Earl Boykins being the other."

=======================================
=======================================


And didn't the Clippers lose Andre Miller in free agency because Don Sterling is notorious for holding down that bottom line.  I really don't think Clippers fans enjoyed losing 13.6 points, 6.7 assists, 4.0 rebounds, and 1.2 steals from their lineup.  The only two players in my history of watching the NBA that Sterling has ever put up the money for is Elton Brand and Corey Magette.  So I hope you'll excuse the fact I don't put ALL the blame on Andre Miller for the Clips letting him walk in free agency.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 02:52:07 PM by Skandery »
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2007, 02:50:41 PM »
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Karl HATED giving up Miller, and that's seen by the fact that Denver would love to get him back.

Beat me to it Joe.
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Re: Let's help Ed Stefanski "Fix" the Sixers.
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2007, 03:10:43 PM »
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So that is why I said even someone on Eddy Curry's level would be hard to get at this point

As I said before, Eddy Curry isn't someone the Sixers would pursue.  And if they wanted to, the Sixers could get him quite easily.  Everyone in the league (minus Isiah) knew pairing Randolph and Curry was a disaster.  Right now NY would give you Curry for any contracts that are shorter, regardless of the player they get back.

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I don't see anyone who is going to give up someone who is young with potential for anyone not involving Andre Igs.

You don't get 20/10 players through trades.  Sure, there are exceptions.  You can get really lucky in a Jermaine O'Neal situation.  You could get Garnett to force his hand in a trade.  But by and large, dominant big men are acquired through the draft.  I'm not arguing otherwise.  But I'm not looking to get a 20/10 player through a trade.