Kirilenko happy

[Ted]

You know the game where AK got assists by getting a block or rebound with a long outlet pass to cutting players?  Or how about grabbing long rebounds and making the good outlet to give the Jazz the advantage.

The Jazz did not "run the ball through" AK when they played the Lakers and they won by 20+. So again, you guys think AK is the direct cause of this and warrants a half court set to go through him when Deron and Boozer?

Gotta give you credit. You said "run the ball through" here. But that's all the credit you get. I'll answer your question with a question. Are you saying that AK got 20 points and 11 assists without having the ball come to him on offense? It was all steals, blocks, and rebounds? Really? For sure?

[Skandery]

I want to express my appreciation to Ted for helping me explain this to Westkoast.  This is a subtle concept. 

I'm going to try to really simplify things. 

Player A brings the ball up the court and passes to Player B
Player B passes the ball to a cutting Player C
Player C dunks the ball. 

Guess What!!  They have just run the offense through Player B and Player B neither brought the ball up the court OR scored!  Guess what again!!  Player B didn't need a back-to-basket move, didn't need a long range jumper, and didn't need to come off a screen to be intricately involved in the converted field goal on that possession.

Pretty cool, huh wk.

If the example was too abstract, you can call Player A--Deron Williams, Player B--Andrei Kirilenko, and Player C--Carlos Boozer.   

[Lurker]

Just to chime in a little...

The offense can "run through" different players IN THE SAME GAME!  What a concept.

To use the Spurs for example.

Usually the Spurs start off a game with Parker being the primary focus of the offense.  Then Duncan usually takes his turn as the primary option.  But almost always at the end of the first half and definately in the 4th quarter the ball is in Manu's hands as the primary facillitator.  The focus at the start of the 3rd quarter usually is dependant upon what Pop saw during the first half.  So the Spurs have 3 options and during the course of a game the primary option changes.

[westkoast]

I want to express my appreciation to Ted for helping me explain this to Westkoast.  This is a subtle concept. 

I'm going to try to really simplify things. 

Player A brings the ball up the court and passes to Player B
Player B passes the ball to a cutting Player C
Player C dunks the ball. 

Guess What!!  They have just run the offense through Player B and Player B neither brought the ball up the court OR scored!  Guess what again!!  Player B didn't need a back-to-basket move, didn't need a long range jumper, and didn't need to come off a screen to be intricately involved in the converted field goal on that possession.

Pretty cool, huh wk.

If the example was too abstract, you can call Player A--Deron Williams, Player B--Andrei Kirilenko, and Player C--Carlos Boozer.   

Oh so that's the definition of running the ball through a player now?   In that case the ball runs through a lot of below average offensive players and it doesn't benefit the offense if you replaced that player with another.   Anyone who touches the ball more then twice a game has the half court offense run through them.   Doesn't sound like running the offense through them to me.   They are just touching it before it goes to a real option in the offense.  I guess the Lakers run the ball through Ariza cuz Fisher passes the ball to him who gives it to Kobe on the wing.  The Knicks run their offense through David Lee   Which comes back to my original point which is if AK is open he should get the ball but to run the ball through him every time as if he's Carlos Boozer or Deron is not the case.  To me running the ball through a player means they are a very important part of the offense.  What you are saying is AK can be replaced with any other player on the offensive end,  cool we both agree!!!    There is no reason to run the ball through AK if anyone else can make that pass into Boozer or back to Deron.  Essentially anyone else can do that.

He does not have the offensive talent to be considered a real threat on offense and he will never get treated as such.  You run the ball through players who provide mismatches in your teams favor.  AK does not provide a mismatch on the offensive end with any player.  He doesn't have the skill set.   There are times when a star player doesn't have the offense ran through them.  Take for example Boris Diaw in PHX.  They give certain teams (like the Lakers) heavy doses of Diaw in the post because he provides a mismatch. They physically run the offense through him. 

Player A = Deron Williams

Player B = Carlos Boozer

Player C,D,E = AK, Okur, Millsap, Brewer, whoever else happens to be in.

Deron Williams takes the ball up the court, passes it to Carlos Boozer, then when the defense collapses he hits a player who is open.   Where in the equation does AK's limited offensive ability come into play?  If he gets open.  Other then that...no.  He helps Boozer re post?  That's running the ball through Boozer, not AK.

 I watched the Spurs/Jazz game last night and saw Utah doing what I mentioned and being successful.  Then I watch AK handle the ball and look awkward.   He then goes on only to dump it to Boozer and run under the rim for a rebound.  He touched it all of 4 seconds.   You guys think they would have won last night if they ran the ball through AK?  Cuz it looked to me like they were getting really good, high % shots without "running the ball through" AK.  Their problem was once again on the defensive end where we really should be talking about AK.

[Ted]

Here I was thinking you had given up and you come up with this . . .

What you are saying is AK can be replaced with any other player on the offensive end,  cool we both agree!!!    There is no reason to run the ball through AK if anyone else can make that pass into Boozer or back to Deron.  Essentially anyone else can do that.

Wow, I mean . . . WOW. Impressive.

I have a simple response, AK makes passes that others on the Jazz (outside of Deron or maybe Boozer on a good night) could not make. He also knows how to find the open spot when he doesn't have the ball.

I watched the Spurs/Jazz game last night and saw Utah doing what I mentioned and being successful.  Then I watch AK handle the ball and look awkward.   He then goes on only to dump it to Boozer and run under the rim for a rebound.  He touched it all of 4 seconds.

No, that is not what the Jazz were doing. The Jazz were running the Jazz offense, which is not what you described. It is moving the ball in an out of the pick and roll with back door cutters coming off the wings when both Deron and Boozer are defended.

For the love man, if any other player on the Jazz could do what Andrei is doing, why aren't they? Why isn't any other player on the Jazz averaging the number of assists he is from that position? I'll tell you why the Jazz lost against the Spurs, it's because Manu Ginobili owned us and Carlos frickin Boozer had NINE turnovers.

I don't understand why you persist in this? AK is very important to this team on both sides of the floor.

[ziggy]

First I am glad that Sloan admitted he did a poor job of handling Kirilenko last year.  I disagree somewhat with Skander, in that this somehow shows how great a coach Sloan is.  I understand Skander's point and it does make some sense, but the fact that Sloan handled it as badly as he did last year needs to be considered when putting this whole thing into context.  In other words Sloan handled it so badly last year that it almost lead to Utah losing Kirilenko, and he has made some amends for that this year.  Until Sloan makes it work for an entire season, I still view it as a big RED check mark against him.

With regards to Kirilenko here are some interesting stats regarding him this year

With him ON the floor Utah is scoring 111 points per 48 minutes.
With him OFF the floor Utah is scoring 88.5 points per 48 minutes.  That is a difference of over 22 points per 48 minutes.  I think that supports Skander and Ted's assertion that he makes a huge difference on the offensive end of the floor.

With him ON the floor Utah is allowing 103 points per 48 minutes.
With him OFF the floor Utah is allowing 94.5 points per 48 minutes.  They allow 8.5 more points per 48 minutes with him on the floor.  Does that mean he is a poor defender?  I actually think it shows his affect on the offensive side even more.  He creates a greater offensive pace for Utah when he is on the floor, which leads to more points being scored by the opponent, but also increases Utah's offensive performance even more.

Overall Utah is 13.4 points better when he is on the floor than when he isn't.  In contrast they are only +2.9 pts with Boozer, +2.8 with Williams, -2.7 with Brewer, +3.4 with Milsap, -15.8 with Harpring, -5.0 with Collins, -5.1 with Okur.

Overall when Kirilenko is on the floor, all the various 5 man units have outscored their opponents 40 times, and been outscored 30 times.  That is a winning % of .571.  By contrast the 5 man units when Kirlenko isn't on the floor is 16-27, or a winning % of .372.  That .200 difference over 82 games is worth 16 wins a season.  That is an incredibly huge number of wins.  That Sloan didn't see that last year, is why I believe he still has a big RED check mark against him.

[Reality]

First I am glad that Sloan admitted he did a poor job of handling Kirilenko last year.  I disagree somewhat with Skander, in that this somehow shows how great a coach Sloan is.  I understand Skander's point and it does make some sense, but the fact that Sloan handled it as badly as he did last year needs to be considered when putting this whole thing into context.  In other words Sloan handled it so badly last year that it almost lead to Utah losing Kirilenko, and he has made some amends for that this year.  Until Sloan makes it work for an entire season, I still view it as a big RED check mark against him.

How much better would Utah have done against San Antonio in the playoffs?
Granted, you're not going to flip a switch and have AK suddenly dunking on a Fabs Oberto.  But still, with his freeaing AK out how much did that hurt Utah.  A lot, if the stats zigs provides hold true in a playoff series.  No reason to think they wouldnt.

[westkoast]

Here I was thinking you had given up and you come up with this . . .

What you are saying is AK can be replaced with any other player on the offensive end,  cool we both agree!!!    There is no reason to run the ball through AK if anyone else can make that pass into Boozer or back to Deron.  Essentially anyone else can do that.

Wow, I mean . . . WOW. Impressive.

I have a simple response, AK makes passes that others on the Jazz (outside of Deron or maybe Boozer on a good night) could not make. He also knows how to find the open spot when he doesn't have the ball.

I watched the Spurs/Jazz game last night and saw Utah doing what I mentioned and being successful.  Then I watch AK handle the ball and look awkward.   He then goes on only to dump it to Boozer and run under the rim for a rebound.  He touched it all of 4 seconds.

No, that is not what the Jazz were doing. The Jazz were running the Jazz offense, which is not what you described. It is moving the ball in an out of the pick and roll with back door cutters coming off the wings when both Deron and Boozer are defended.

For the love man, if any other player on the Jazz could do what Andrei is doing, why aren't they? Why isn't any other player on the Jazz averaging the number of assists he is from that position? I'll tell you why the Jazz lost against the Spurs, it's because Manu Ginobili owned us and Carlos frickin Boozer had NINE turnovers.

I don't understand why you persist in this? AK is very important to this team on both sides of the floor.

Ted I did say that AK is important to the team.  I think I said that when he is on the floor that is their best core of guys.  Ziggy's stats back that up as did Skanders.  I also said that his defense really helps the team out quite a bit.  I also believe he should get some touches but no way in hell should he ever have the ball run through him when Boozer and Deron are on the floor.   He is very important to this team because he is such an awesome defender.  In order for them to stay consistant they need to play good defense.  Like you mentioned in the SA game the reason they lost was not because of the offense but because of their defense.  Skander brought up last years "melt down" against SA as an argument for why AK should be a bigger part of this offense...makes NO sense to me at all.  I think it's hard to just go strickly off of stats and while I agree they strength a point being made it doesn't tell the whole story as usual. If the Jazz are severly lacking without AK being a big part of the offense like you guys say then why do they keep losing because of lack of defense?!  Shouldn't they be losing because they can't score points?  Why are they still pushing 100 points every game with him only getting 5 touches a game?!

What I don't believe is he is a threat on the offensive end to warrant half court sets to run through him.  For some odd reason your and skanders definition of 'running an offense through someone' has changed to mean he gets to touch the ball.  When to all the other people who I know who speak basketball consider players like Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant to have offensive sets ran through em.  With other players being included on the list like Manu, Boris Diaw, Tony Parker, Caron Butler, Illgauskus, etc.    When AK is in the post commanding double teams on a frequent basis then I will conceed that he is capable of having an offense ran through him.  Or when his jumper is good enough to space the floor out well.

In the Spurs game the Jazz were running the jazz offense...through Boozer and Williams.  So if that's the jazz offense like you say why was AK not apart of it?  Don't you guys believe that he is so great that he should have the ball run through him.  Are you guys being Reality to Jerry Sloan's Popavich where you think you can coach the team better then him?  He said he needs more touches but he has yet to run the ball through anyone but Boozer and Deron Williams.  If you need sure fire production you do not run the ball through AK.  You go to Boozer and Deron.  Maybe you guys are mixing up AK with Hornacek or something, I dunno.  He is a good example of a player that had an offense run through him that wasn't the two main guys in Stockton and Malone.  The difference between him and AK?  He had a better jumper.

The Jazz continue to be one of the top teams in the entire league with out making AK an important part of the offense yet you guys both seem to think its real critical.  I don't.  Simple as that.

Ill throw out some stats of my own...

Over the last 3 games, which all have been losses to WC teams (2 contenders), Andre has hovered around the typical amount of assists he gets and points he puts in for his career.  He even shot the ball better then he normally does.  However they are still not closing out games.  You guys want to attribute that to AK not being a bigger part of the offense?  Cuz I would like to contribute it to playing less then stellar defense especially on the boards and not getting any blocks in two of the games.  I feel that good defense leads to good offense.  If a team is getting stops and controls the other team on the defensive end they play better offense.  Some teams that is the reverse for but teams coached by Pop, Sloan, Pat Riley,  Phil Jackson, and other great coaches tend to start with defense first.

[Ted]

Why are they still pushing 100 points every game with him only getting 5 touches a game?!

Wait . . . what the eff? Five touches? AK averages 6 APG with only 5 touches?! You're raving now.

What I don't believe is he is a threat on the offensive end to warrant half court sets to run through him. For some odd reason your and skanders definition of 'running an offense through someone' has changed to mean he gets to touch the ball.

I don't know what else to say. The Jazz offense is a set designed to run through whoever it has to. And when the ball gets to AK, he usually does something good with it.

You are being as stubborn and irrational about this as Reality can be about the Lakers (no offense Reality, I think you know this). I guess I'll concede defeat because there's nothing to be gained from arguing with someone who simply ignores or redefines concrete evidence contrary to his original opinion.

Seriously folks . . . am I the only one thinking Koast is being unbelievably thick about this?

[Ted]

In the Spurs game the Jazz were running the jazz offense...through Boozer and Williams.  So if that's the jazz offense like you say why was AK not apart of it?  Don't you guys believe that he is so great that he should have the ball run through him.  Are you guys being Reality to Jerry Sloan's Popavich where you think you can coach the team better then him?  He said he needs more touches but he has yet to run the ball through anyone but Boozer and Deron Williams.  If you need sure fire production you do not run the ball through AK.  You go to Boozer and Deron.  Maybe you guys are mixing up AK with Hornacek or something, I dunno.  He is a good example of a player that had an offense run through him that wasn't the two main guys in Stockton and Malone.  The difference between him and AK?  He had a better jumper.

Okay, I think I know what's going on here. You're just baiting us now, right? I should have seen this. That's all this could be. You've posted intelligently before, in fact, almost all the time. That must be it because you're stating as fact that AK was not part of the offense in the last few games and then telling us he played about as well as he has all season.

All of a sudden, I'm unhappy with the Jazz offense? I can't even count the times you've put obviously false words in to our mouths. The Jazz lead the league in scoring you dunce! Why would we be unhappy about the offense? In fact, outside of a little worry over the defense, I love the way the Jazz are playing!

Hornacek was a great scorer. AK does not compare in any way offensively, but Hornacek's offensive production came from within the Jazz system at the time. It was never just Stockton to Malone, shot. Do you not understand the concept of an offense where each player is involved and plays a vital role in the execution of a set play?

The Jazz continue to be one of the top teams in the entire league with out making AK an important part of the offense yet you guys both seem to think its real critical.  I don't.  Simple as that.

Are you posting from an alternate universe? Very strong statistics from Skander and Zig aside, the fact that AK is second on the team in assists PROVES he IS AT THIS TIME RIGHT NOW an important part of the league leading offense of the Jazz.

I expect your response to this statement will be to simply say "AK is not an important part of the offense," ignoring all of the statistical and game evidence we've presented. It must be fun to argue by your rules.

Ill throw out some stats of my own...

Over the last 3 games, which all have been losses to WC teams (2 contenders), Andre has hovered around the typical amount of assists he gets and points he puts in for his career.  He even shot the ball better then he normally does.  However they are still not closing out games.  You guys want to attribute that to AK not being a bigger part of the offense?  Cuz I would like to contribute it to playing less then stellar defense especially on the boards and not getting any blocks in two of the games.  I feel that good defense leads to good offense.  If a team is getting stops and controls the other team on the defensive end they play better offense.  Some teams that is the reverse for but teams coached by Pop, Sloan, Pat Riley,  Phil Jackson, and other great coaches tend to start with defense first.

Just to be clear . . . there was not one damn stat in that paragraph. Pathetic.

[Skandery]

Seriously folks . . . am I the only one thinking Koast is being unbelievably thick about this?

A resounding NO!

Deron Williams takes the ball up the court, passes it to Carlos Boozer, then when the defense collapses he hits a player who is open.

If you think this is the ONLY play in Utah's half-court offense, then you're either being coy or plain dishonest.  Because I know you've seen them play this year. 

The Jazz continue to be one of the top teams in the entire league with out making AK an important part of the offense yet you guys both seem to think its real critical.

Westkoast, the man averages 6.0 assists per game.  Six.  SIX!  From the forward position.  Only Lebron James averages more assists at the SF position.  No PF in the entire league averages that many assists in fact #2 is Nowitzki at 3.8.  In fact, no frontline player in the NBA other than LeBron averages more assists than Kirilenko.  IN FACT, only 15 of the NBA's 30 starting Point Guards average that many assists.  Maybe I need to define what an assist means.  It is a particular kind of pass that is directly resultant in a made field goal.  It is very different from just a regular pass in that it directly leads to a made shot.  Understand, that means counting his own 10 ppg--Kirilenko is directly responsible for 22 of Utah's 107 points per game.

Anyone who touches the ball more then twice a game has the half court offense run through them.

So lets take what we just learned about the "Assist" and apply it to this asinine comment.  There is a big difference between "touching the ball" and "touching the ball and directly influencing a made shot" whether by shooting and scoring or ASSISTING on a score.   

 

I guess the Lakers run the ball through Ariza cuz Fisher passes the ball to him who gives it to Kobe on the wing.

If Ariza averaged more than 1.5 apg, it would lend lots of credibility to this statement. 

Knowing what we know about what it means to "run an offense" through someone and our new knowledge of the assist, lets go back to the abstract and I'll ask you a multiple choice question afterward. 

Player A brings the ball up and passes to Player B
Player B passes the ball to Player C
Player C finds Player D on a backdoor cut
Player D dunks the ball.

Which player was MOST responsible for the made field goal?

A) Player A
B) Player B
C) Player C
D) Player D
     

[Lurker]

Player A brings the ball up and passes to Player B
Player B passes the ball to Player C
Player C finds Player D on a backdoor cut
Player D dunks the ball.

Which player was MOST responsible for the made field goal?

A) Player A
B) Player B
C) Player C
D) Player D
     

[raises hand]  Oh, oh I know this one.  Pick me, pick me.





Well, of course, it is D.  If the guy misses the dunk then all the passing goes for naught.

[westkoast]

Neato multiple choice answer Skand but if you want to parlay a dunk to what Boozer does in the paint by all means go ahead.  It's not my team or star player you are crappin on!  To make it sound like as if the guy who scores the basket can be done by anyone holds true in two instances, layups and dunks.  In a half court set when you want to pound in the paint guy C could be interchangeable because he is just moving the ball to the guy who has to operate.  Correct me if I am wrong but the most quality shot the Utah Jazz get is Boozer in the paint with a mismatch correct?   If the player makes a good cut there are a number of players who can make that pass on this unit.  You are speaking as if AK is Steve Nash.  Is the offense running well or is it only AK who can make it run well?  I have still yet to see why AK needs to have the ball go through him like he's Manu Ginobilli.  Do you think hes Manu?  Or even close?

Answer this question for me...Lurker as well....

It is a playoff game in the 4th quarter and the game is neck and neck with San Antonio Spurs..  Do you...

A) Run a play for Carlos Boozer in the paint
B) Set a pick from Deron Williams to get to the rim
C) Give the ball to AK
D) Have Deron drive and kick to an open man

Ted why are you getting upset because I don't feel the Jazz offense should be ran through AK.  I've stated reasons why I don't think he should have offense ran through him while at the same time making it clear I think he's a good player.  Just not a good offensive player.  I feel as if you guys are trying to make him into a good offensive player when he's decent.

[Lurker]

Answer this question for me...Lurker as well....

It is a playoff game in the 4th quarter and the game is neck and neck with San Antonio Spurs..  Do you...

A) Run a play for Carlos Boozer in the paint
B) Set a pick from Deron Williams to get to the rim
C) Give the ball to AK
D) Have Deron drive and kick to an open man

Depends on the matchups, who is on and who I am coaching against.

But then you should have to answer this question:

Game tied, 4th quarter, shot clock off.  Having replaced Pop on the bench do you:

A) Dump the ball into Duncan in the low post
B) Have Parker drive to the basket
C) Set up Horry for a offensive rebound at the 3 point line so he can bank it in
D) Give the ball to Manu to create






And if you choose D then why would you put the ball into the hands of a 3rd tier player who doesn't start?

[Skandery]

In a half court set when you want to pound in the paint guy C could be interchangeable because he is just moving the ball to the guy who has to operate.  Correct me if I am wrong but the most quality shot the Utah Jazz get is Boozer in the paint with a mismatch correct?

Yes, if your just going to make an entry pass into a low post operator and watch him work than Player C is interchangeable.  Player C also would NOT get an assist on that pass.  But that is not the situation I described, go back and read it carefully. 

Is Boozer the best bet for a quality shot in the half court offense?  That's a fine question.  The answer is Yes and No and I'll explain. 

Let's go back to my original statement on my second post of this thread that Ted quoted later on:

Not just shooting, but having the ball work through him some of the time to utilize his offensive creativity.

If ALL that you ever do is walk the ball up the court and entry-pass into Boozer and just watch him work.  You are an ineffective, 1-dimensional team.  Even if Boozer has a mismatch.  #1 because Boozer lapses into brain-dead mode sometimes and decides to start doing fade-away crap, #2 because you're essentially counting on the three-point shot if a semi-intelligent defense does what is smart and doubles Boozer.  And Utah ain't stock-loaded with just great long range shooters, besides Deron and Okur, you're talking AK, Brewer, Millsap and Harpring--None which scare me from the perimeter and Okur's been struggling with his efficiency.  Some of the time when your forced into a half-court offense, its better to rely on a series of passes and cuts to get a bucket.  Jerry Sloan knows this and has built on offense around this philosophy.  And here is where the offensive creativity of Kirilenko helps out immensely in actually finding people on the cut.  Not all of the burden has to fall on Deron being the sole creator in the set, half-court offense.  He has the second best passing, front-line player in the NBA alongside him.

While I agree that a lot of credit goes to the player who has the presence of mind to make a great cut.  A lot of credit also has to go to the player that has the presence of mind to make a good pass on that great cut to get the easy bucket.  Heck, from personal experience I know that I don't recieve a pass on probably 75-80% of the cuts to the basket I make.  You know why.  Passing and court vision are subtle skills that many, many basketball players simply don't possess.  After all, everyone wants to be like Mike and shoot the ball.  But I digress . . .

I have still yet to see why AK needs to have the ball go through him like he's Manu Ginobilli.  Do you think hes Manu?  Or even close?

I've already explained to you what I meant by having the ball "go through" someone.  Manu and AK are as different as Deron and AK.  Manu is a primary ball-handler and creator for San Antonio.  He dribbles the ball then decides whether to drive and kick, pull up for a shot, go around a screen and pass, go around a screen and drive, etc.  AK is not the primary ball-handler or creator, that's Deron Williams.  AK is a facilitator of the offense.  When Manu drives and kicks to Duncan at 15 feet facing up, then Duncan finds Oberto on a baseline cut for a layup.  What Duncan just did there is what Kirilenko does for Utah.  He doesn't initiate the offense, he rarely converts the field goal on the play, but he faciliates the offense with creative passes that lead more often than not to easy baskets for his teammates.  Sloan has realized this avenue of creativity for Kirilenko and began coaching him as such; and the result is that Utah's offense has looked better than it has since the Malone-Stockton-Hornacek Era. 

 

It is a playoff game in the 4th quarter and the game is neck and neck with San Antonio Spurs..  Do you...

A) Run a play for Carlos Boozer in the paint
B) Set a pick from Deron Williams to get to the rim
C) Give the ball to AK
D) Have Deron drive and kick to an open man

Your choices are too vague and subject to numerous circumstances.

I choose E) Get the Highest Percentage Field Goal. 

A) Sounds nice and fundamental but what if Duncan has eaten Boozer's lunch all game long.  B) also sounds pretty good especially if Deron has been making good decisions though I consider San Antonio's back line help defense very strong and simply springing Deron for a drive to the rim may not be the best choice. C) sounds alright if Utah's offense is clicking and everyone's on the same page though it would depend on where AK is and also whether he's been turning the ball over trying to make tough passes.  D) Depends on the man Deron is kicking too if its Jarron Collins than HELL NO; Mehmet Okur, Sure.