Kirilenko happy

[Joe Vancil]

There's more than one problem with Skander's question that he posed.  Lurker pointed out the obvious one, but I'd like to point out the subtle one.

To go back to the initial question:

Player A brings the ball up and passes to Player B
Player B passes the ball to Player C
Player C finds Player D on a backdoor cut
Player D dunks the ball.

Which player was MOST responsible for the made field goal?

My answer is that there is NOT a player most responsible for a made field goal when playing in a pattern offense, because the entire team is making the single play work.  Player A's pass to player B is not unimportant.  Player B either knowing to get it to Player C or adaptively choosing Player C to pass to is not inconsequential.  Player C's contribution is recognized by an assist.  It is not necessarily that pass that was most essential to the offense.  And Lurker pointed out the contribution of Player D.

Only by all of these parts working together does an offense run.

BECAUSE OF THIS - stating that Kirilenko was not a part of the Utah offense last year is a BIG PROBLEM.  It shows either that A) Kirilenko does not understand the significance of his role offensively - which either means Kirilenko is stupid or Sloan did not adequately explain his role to him, or B) that the adaptive nature of the offense meant that Kirilenko's role was being played well, or C) that players, coaches, etc. left Kirilenko out of their plans for some reason, and that falls on Sloan, Williams, and even Kirilenko to some extent.  Deron Williams clued us in that C) was part of his motivation.  Sloan all but explicitly confirmed that.  This is known as a chemistry problem.

The idea that the offense is "being run through" a particular player means different things to different people.  As a point guard, my comment in such a situation - and I've been in plenty of them - is that I want TOUCHES.  They are touches I will use to pass, to shoot, to drive, to do WHATEVER I NEED TO DO to fulfill my role appropriately.  Kirilenko was effectively complaining that he wasn't getting touches.  Sloan agreed.  Deron Williams explained why.

Personally, I think Kirilenko needed to examine just what his role was.  Last year, he took some absolute stinkers of shots at times.  If he did that with anywhere close to the frequency that he did it in games that I saw, if I were Utah's point guard, *I'D* have taken the ball out of his hands...just like Deron Williams did.  And I'd have gone to him, and told him why, and refocused Kirilenko.  Playing as he's played this year, he's more effective.  And there's no question that he should play SOME role in the Utah offense.  But there is - using Kirilenko's word for it - a "robot" component to it.  It is useless to be creative if your teammates cannot feed of of that creativity.  Nothing makes me more aggrivated than watching a player be "creative" in a pattern offense than when I've made that cut, and I'm supposed to get the ball, and I've got my open look, and that "creative" player takes away my touch in order to do something that no one is expecting.  (Please note that this is what Tex Winter criticized Kobe for doing in the triangle offense, so I'm not alone in being annoyed by such things.)

Does Kirilenko want TOUCHES or does he want SIGNIFICANCE?  If it's the former, then to do it, scale back on your "creativity" and make a few of the smart plays.  If it's the latter - tough luck, because the Jazz have better options.

[westkoast]

Yes, if your just going to make an entry pass into a low post operator and watch him work than Player C is interchangeable.  Player C also would NOT get an assist on that pass.  But that is not the situation I described, go back and read it carefully.   

No need to go back and re-read it.  A back cut on a good defensive team rarely happens.  However, pounding the ball into Carlos Boozer happens often.  Let's stick to what happens most of the time not what happens one in 15 plays in a half court set.

If ALL that you ever do is walk the ball up the court and entry-pass into Boozer and just watch him work.  You are an ineffective, 1-dimensional team.  Even if Boozer has a mismatch.  #1 because Boozer lapses into brain-dead mode sometimes and decides to start doing fade-away crap, #2 because you're essentially counting on the three-point shot if a semi-intelligent defense does what is smart and doubles Boozer.  And Utah ain't stock-loaded with just great long range shooters, besides Deron and Okur, you're talking AK, Brewer, Millsap and Harpring--None which scare me from the perimeter and Okur's been struggling with his efficiency.  Some of the time when your forced into a half-court offense, its better to rely on a series of passes and cuts to get a bucket.  Jerry Sloan knows this and has built on offense around this philosophy.  And here is where the offensive creativity of Kirilenko helps out immensely in actually finding people on the cut.  Not all of the burden has to fall on Deron being the sole creator in the set, half-court offense.  He has the second best passing, front-line player in the NBA alongside him. 

Right if all you ever do is pound the ball it becomes boring and predictable, okay.  I agree.  Pounding the ball to a big man does produce results however.  The Spurs managed to do an excellent job of playing Timmy ball for all those years.  This leads right back to letting Deron use his creative offensive moves because he actually has quite a bit in his arsenal.  He can do everything AK can do AND some.  Which is again why I am saying he should have the ball ran through him instead of AK.  When AK can get to the rim and has a jumper as good as Deron's then I will agree he can keep people guessing on the offensive end. 

You know you can drive and kick for a non-3 point shot right?  You are telling me that AK can't hit an open 20 foot  jumper (goes against what you are saying about his offensive game) and neither can Girieck, Harpring, or  Brewer?  That I don't believe.  While they are not great shooters having an open shot is still a very good look for any player.

While I agree that a lot of credit goes to the player who has the presence of mind to make a great cut.  A lot of credit also has to go to the player that has the presence of mind to make a good pass on that great cut to get the easy bucket.  Heck, from personal experience I know that I don't recieve a pass on probably 75-80% of the cuts to the basket I make.  You know why.  Passing and court vision are subtle skills that many, many basketball players simply don't possess.  After all, everyone wants to be like Mike and shoot the ball.  But I digress . . .

I agree that not all players make the right pass consistantly and AK does make nice passes.  However AK is not creating that all by himself in that situation.  The offense dictates that so even if AK is not on the court they can still get good looks such as layups from back cuts.  I think we both agree that it takes the same smart player to make a back cut as it does to make the bounce pass to the back cut.  Does AK do both? Sure.  Could Matt Harpring make the same play? Yea I think he could.

Playing on the black top is a little bit different from playing in a set offense with plays practiced with the same core of guys for a living...but you knew that of course 

I've already explained to you what I meant by having the ball "go through" someone.  Manu and AK are as different as Deron and AK.  Manu is a primary ball-handler and creator for San Antonio.  He dribbles the ball then decides whether to drive and kick, pull up for a shot, go around a screen and pass, go around a screen and drive, etc.  AK is not the primary ball-handler or creator, that's Deron Williams.  AK is a facilitator of the offense.  When Manu drives and kicks to Duncan at 15 feet facing up, then Duncan finds Oberto on a baseline cut for a layup.  What Duncan just did there is what Kirilenko does for Utah.  He doesn't initiate the offense, he rarely converts the field goal on the play, but he faciliates the offense with creative passes that lead more often than not to easy baskets for his teammates.  Sloan has realized this avenue of creativity for Kirilenko and began coaching him as such; and the result is that Utah's offense has looked better than it has since the Malone-Stockton-Hornacek Era. 

Well your definition of running the ball through the player is unique to say the least.  You think that one in 3 trips AK should be asked to play the point forward position ala Scottie Pippen?  Or like Lamar Odom?  Or do you expect Sloan to run a play where he comes off a screen to shoot a jump shot?  Didn't you both agree he doesn't have a good jumper?

And Duncan doesn't make the high low pass to Flabs...that actually comes from Manu or Horry about 80% of the time.  They consistently make that play with him.  The Jazz fans should know all about those from last years playoffs. 

I've yet to watch a Utah game and I've been watching as many as I can lately to see where they are seriously running the ball through AK as a legit offensive threat either shooting, passing, or creating shots for others.  I see him on the defensive end force teams into bad shots which allows Utah to pull away from teams.  I see teams have trouble getting easy shots in the paint when he is on the floor.

Your choices are too vague and subject to numerous circumstances.

Vague to fit most situations.  Not an example of something that happens no more then 2-3 times in a quarter on an AWESOME night for a team's offense like the Jazz.   You might have Utah mixed up with PHX.

I choose E) Get the Highest Percentage Field Goal. 

Which you've said is Boozer in the paint with a mismatch....Gotcha.

A) Sounds nice and fundamental but what if Duncan has eaten Boozer's lunch all game long.

What if Phoenix has Boris Diaw on him?  What if Fabs is on Boozer?  What is Dirk has 4 fouls and is guarding him?  What if...what if...what if.....

Generally speaking Boozer gets the highest quality shot because he is better then most people who guard him and he is close to the basket.

 

B) also sounds pretty good especially if Deron has been making good decisions though I consider San Antonio's back line help defense very strong and simply springing Deron for a drive to the rim may not be the best choice.

Sounds damn good to me.  It looked pretty good against San Antonio in the playoffs last year.  In fact he was the only player that they have no real answer for.  Tony Parker cannot guard him.  I didn't see AK scoring 30+ points and dishing out 10+ assits against the best defense in the league last year.  However, you guys seem to think he magically will do it.  I hope for the Jazz sake he proves me wrong in the playoffs this year.

C) sounds alright if Utah's offense is clicking and everyone's on the same page though it would depend on where AK is and also whether he's been turning the ball over trying to make tough passes. 

Deron and Harpring both can make the same pass you want AK to make if the player receiving the pass runs the play the way Jerry Sloan has taught them.

D) Depends on the man Deron is kicking too if its Jarron Collins than HELL NO; Mehmet Okur, Sure. 

What about Gordan Giricek?  Matt Harpring?  Hart?  While not Peja caliber they can knock down open shots.  Okur is a no brainer and a legit threat from outside.


So what you guys are saying is since AK doesn't have a jumper and he cannot create off the dribble you want him to play the point forward for long stretches in the game?  I don't think Jerry Sloan has envisioned that.  We will see.  Like I said I hope he proves me wrong.  Let's see how his numbers on the offensive end sky rocket this year.

You guys should be happy that we don't see eye to eye on this.  We've gone 3 pages talking about the Jazz.  Hay if you want we can go back to threads about the Lakers all the time?  Would that make you guys more happy? 

[ziggy]

From Kelly Dwyer on Yahoo

Behind the boxscores: Utah's 'Turkey product'
By Kelly Dwyer

Wednesday, Dec 5, 2007 8:19 am EST
Sacramento 117, Utah 107

Utah?s a frustrating team. Jerry Sloan?s outfit boasts a usually dominant attack on the offensive end, utilizing in equal parts aggression, pick-and-roll orthodoxy and a bit of ye olde extra pass ? usually initiated by one Andrei Kirilenko. And though this team is chock full of solid individual defenders, they?re often overrated by media types who fail to see just how much the team cripples itself defensively by putting its opponents on the free throw line too damn much. 

Entering Tuesday, the Jazz were 8th in defensive efficiency (an overall defensive stat that allows for varying tempos amongst the league?s teams); and while that?s an improvement on last year?s mark of 19th, they could really be better. Tonight the Jazz gave the Kings 47 trips to the line (four coming in the final minute to stop the clock), which is a bit of a step up from Sacramento?s average of 29.8 trips per game. I just passed on making a Grateful Dead joke, and for that, you should be grateful.
Actually, I think I just made a sort of Grateful Dead joke.  The worst sort.

John Salmons? offensive work in the wake of Kevin Martin?s third quarter injury will get the headlines, but it was Ron Artest who led the Kings back offensively. Working against Carlos Boozer for some reason, Artest was an offensive rock for the Kings in the latter part of the fourth. 

Coming out of a timeout with two minutes left in the contest, one would expect Sloan to put either Kirilenko or Ronnie Brewer on the white-hot Artest at that point, but instead he went to a box-and-one; which allowed Francisco Garcia to hit a three-pointer and give the Kings a six-point lead that they never relinquished. Until, of course, they play the Clippers on Friday, when the score is due to start at nil-nil.

Also, although brevity is the heart of every blog that?s worth a lick, I do have to point out that Kings play-by-play man called Mehmet Okur a ?Turkey product? in the third quarter. Not a ?product of Turkey,? mind you, or ?Turkish product.? Rather, and I repeat: ?Turkey product.? Jerry Reynolds then managed to somehow top him by referring to him as the second-best player from Turkey, somehow short of Hedo Turkoglu ? who is, in a way, sort of a turkey product. Gobble, gobble, toil and trouble. 

(Please tell me that?s better than a Grateful Dead pun.)

[Skandery]

My answer is that there is NOT a player most responsible for a made field goal when playing in a pattern offense, because the entire team is making the single play work.

Yes Joe, in the ethereal world of philosophy everyone is responsible for making the play work to perfection.  Heck you can even give Player E credit for getting the floor-spacing correct in order for D to make a cut.  I suggest lets stick to the cumbersome REAL world that we live in. 

Player A is Derek Fisher
Player B is Sasha Vujacic
Player C is Lamar Odom
Player D is Kobe Bryant 

Run my scenario.  Now lets replace Lamar Odom with Kwame Brown.  Is that nice pass from Player C to the backdoor cutter MORE or LESS likely to happen.  On the off chance Kwame makes the pass, is the pass MORE or LESS likely to have correct velocity and placement for the cutter to catch it in stride.  Being a PG, you should know better than anyone the presence of mind i takes to make the pass in the first place and the kind of skill it takes to make Player C's pass easy for Player D to convert.

Playing as he's played this year, he's more effective.

       
Playing as he's played this year wouldn't mean crap if he didn't "Touch" the ball.

Nothing makes me more aggrivated than watching a player be "creative" in a pattern offense than when I've made that cut, and I'm supposed to get the ball, and I've got my open look, and that "creative" player takes away my touch in order to do something that no one is expecting.

I think you know by my use of the word "creative" it was creativity in involving your teammates, not how many times you can dribble between your legs.

Does Kirilenko want TOUCHES or does he want SIGNIFICANCE?  If it's the former, then to do it, scale back on your "creativity" and make a few of the smart plays.

I'm sure you've read through the mountain of statistics provided by me and Ziggy that shows that a Kirilenko "TOUCH" on offense is resulting in a "SMART PLAY" more than anyone else wearing a Jazz uniform.  Good thing for Utah Sloan has massaged the offense to get Kirilenko more "TOUCHES" and that Deron is giving it to him for a change.

[westkoast]

When you two are done playing pitty pat can you answer my question(s)....

Do you think that AK has the offensive weapons to run the point forward position through him ala Scottie Pippen?  Or is that not what you two have envisioned?  Was it more like Manu where he has offense ran through him for portions of the game because of his offensive creativity?  Or was it more like Lamar Odom where he rebounds the ball and pushes it?  Maybe you wanted him to be more like Vlade Divac where he wasn't one of the big two but he could move the ball?

Since you think I cannot comprehend anything but Lakers references I will will continue to speak back to you in Lakers speak.  Sort of like how gringos speak louder to someone who is brown regardless if they speak perfectly good english...email WOW he will explain it.

The Showtime Lakers ran the offense through 3 main players...Kareem, Magic, and James Worthy.  Kareem and Magic  as the first two options in the offense.  James Worthy was that 3rd option that they went to for offense quite a bit. Worthy could pass the ball as well.  He was a very good finisher.   Can AK produce consistently more then just passing?  If all you want to admit is he can make good passes SOMETIMES then it doesn't warrant the ball being in his hands as a 3rd option that the offense runs through when it needs production.  Deron can make any pass AK can make and then some.  He can also score for himself if that opens up for him real fast.  How many back cuts and easy passes do you think you get against San Antonio in the playoffs in one game?   You have to be able to do more to have offense run through you.

The Utah Jazz are currently in a 4 game losing streak and AK has yet to show me why you guys feel that running the ball through him is a MUST.  He had one game with 8 assists which is a good night production wise.  He also had 3 games that were average or poor.    Right now what I am saying is holding true.  Any number of players can replace him in the offense.   IMO it is more beneficial to let Deron and Carlos have the ball ran through them as they get it done in many different ways.  AK should be Bruce Bowen-esque.  He can make offensive plays sometimes but you want him to focus in on defense.  If players are making the cuts they are suppose to then the pass will be there as long as they are paying attention in practice.  I mean honestly you think they practice running plays and making cuts but not making the passes? lol

3 points,  0 assists, 2 turn overs in 26 minutes of play against a team that they will be battling to get back to the Western Conference finals....The Portland Trailblazers.  Wouldn't you guys agree that doesn't really help your cause here?  Id be more worried about asking too much from AK given he is injury prone.

[Skandery]

no need to go back and re-read it.  A back cut on a good defensive team rarely happens.  However, pounding the ball into Carlos Boozer happens often.  Let's stick to what happens most of the time not what happens one in 15 plays in a half court set.

If a player wants to cut its going to happen, otherwise if the Ref is doing their job, its a foul on account of obstruction of an offensive players motion.  Good defense or not, cutting HAPPENS.  I also guarantee Sloan wants an offense that runs the scenario I described way more than one in fifteen times.

Right if all you ever do is pound the ball it becomes boring and predictable, okay.  I agree.  Pounding the ball to a big man does produce results however.  The Spurs managed to do an excellent job of playing Timmy ball for all those years.  This leads right back to letting Deron use his creative offensive moves because he actually has quite a bit in his arsenal.  He can do everything AK can do AND some.  Which is again why I am saying he should have the ball ran through him instead of AK.  When AK can get to the rim and has a jumper as good as Deron's then I will agree he can keep people guessing on the offensive end.

You're right, its easy enough for Carlos Boozer and Deron Williams to do literally, absolutely, everything for the Jazz offensively.  I just don't think 2 on 5 works as well as 5 on 5.

The offense dictates that so even if AK is not on the court they can still get good looks such as layups from back cuts.

Then why do the all of the statistics bear this statement of yours to completely false.  When AK is not on the court, every offensive statistic suffers.  

Playing on the black top is a little bit different from playing in a set offense with plays practiced with the same core of guys for a living...but you knew that of course  

Where do you think College and eventually NBA recruit from, those same Black-Tops and AAU gyms.  Why do you think the culture of American basketball fundamentals such as "Moving without the Ball" and "The Bounce Pass" has deteriorated to the point that it has.  In my scenario, almost no one wants to be Player C, they want to be Player D.  Worst they want to be Player A (who brings the ball up) and then dunk on all 5 defenders.    

What if Phoenix has Boris Diaw on him?  What if Fabs is on Boozer?  What is Dirk has 4 fouls and is guarding him?  What if...what if...what if.....

Like I said you're choices were too vague and subject to circumstance.  This is an inherent problem in the question you posed.  

Sounds damn good to me.  It looked pretty good against San Antonio in the playoffs last year.

Did It!! How'd Utah do in that series?

So what you guys are saying is since AK doesn't have a jumper and he cannot create off the dribble you want him to play the point forward for long stretches in the game?

Whether you want to believe it or not.  AK is more important as the facilitator of the Utah offense than the man who does play Point-Forward for your team -- Lamar Odom for the Lakers.  

Like I said I hope he proves me wrong.

He already has!  Read the excerpts from Journalists like Ziggy posted.  Look at the numbers.  I can help explain them to you in detail, even.

We've gone 3 pages talking about the Jazz.

 

Yeah, this has been fun.

[Ted]

When you two are done playing pitty pat can you answer my question(s)....

Okay, if I must.

Do you think that AK has the offensive weapons to run the point forward position through him ala Scottie Pippen?

No I do not think he has the offensive weapons to run the "point forward" position.

Or is that not what you two have envisioned?

Indeed, that is NOT what we two have envisioned, and we have made that point abundantly clear. Andrei Kirilenko is not a point forward. He is an especially effective cog in an offensive scheme designed to involve more than two players.

Was it more like Manu where he has offense ran through him for portions of the game because of his offensive creativity?

The only similarity I see between AK and Manu is the fact that they are both part of an offensive scheme designed to involve more than two players. Yes, even with the best big man in the league, the Spurs involve multiple players on offense. Anyway, I think Manu can create his own shot and is a much better overall scorer than Andrei.

Or was it more like Lamar Odom where he rebounds the ball and pushes it?

I wouldn't say his game is like Lamar Odom's. Odom is a better ball handler and scorer than Andrei. As far as defense, offensive rebounding and team play, AK is better IMO.

Maybe you wanted him to be more like Vlade Divac where he wasn't one of the big two but he could move the ball?

No, I don't want him to be like Vlade. I want him to defend.

Since you think I cannot comprehend anything but Lakers references I will will continue to speak back to you in Lakers speak.

I think you can comprehend anything you want to. I think you deliberately misinterpret our words.

The Showtime Lakers ran the offense through 3 main players...Kareem, Magic, and James Worthy.

Not to be rude or condescending, but how old were you when the Showtime Lakers actually played? I personally was between the ages of 8 and 12 and haven't watched enough ESPN Classic, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on how they played. I do hear they moved the ball around A LOT.

Can AK produce consistently more then just passing?  If all you want to admit is he can make good passes SOMETIMES then it doesn't warrant the ball being in his hands as a 3rd option that the offense runs through when it needs production.

Here are AK's offensive strengths as I see them this year: free throw shooting, moving without the ball, passing to people moving w/o the ball, leading and/or finishing the fast break, jump shooting from 16-18 feet and in, and offensive rebounding. This set of offensive skills would NOT make him interchangeable with a Lamar Odom or Manu Ginobili. I would say he is a different player. (Yes I realize how earthshattering that statement is.)

How many back cuts and easy passes do you think you get against San Antonio in the playoffs in one game?

As many as they attempt. They'll probably have less success than they would against other teams. But if they're running the offense the way Sloan wants them to, they'll make as many cuts as they attempt. Whether or not that type of offense is successful depends on when the cut is made, how accurate the pass is, and how well the cutter is defended. When the Jazz are really on, it doesn't matter where the defender is because the cuts and passes are so perfectly timed that the play is almost indefensible. In fact, to stop it, the defender is forced to foul.

The Utah Jazz are currently in a 4 game losing streak and AK has yet to show me why you guys feel that running the ball through him is a MUST.  He had one game with 8 assists which is a good night production wise.  He also had 3 games that were average or poor.

For one, the Jazz are losing because the opposing team's primary ball handler is getting into the lane with absurd ease and the help defense is slow. Secondarily, as you so astutely and conveniently pointed out, AK is having substandard games, getting fewer touches, and the offense is underperforming. AK has bad games and the Jazz lose. Thanks for helping me solidify my original point.

And yet . . . throughout the losing streak, Deron and Boozer have been getting their numbers while the rest of the team has fallen off. That there 2 on 5 offense doesn't seem to be cutting it.

Right now what I am saying is holding true.

uh . . . ditto

Any number of players can replace him in the offense.

You have offered no real statistical proof or logical reasoning to refute Skander's solid evidence against this claim.

If players are making the cuts they are suppose to then the pass will be there as long as they are paying attention in practice.  I mean honestly you think they practice running plays and making cuts but not making the passes? lol

I honestly think that? Gee, I'll have to go find the post in which Skander or I said this. I love how this method of argument comes so easily to you.

3 points,  0 assists, 2 turn overs in 26 minutes of play against a team that they will be battling to get back to the Western Conference finals....The Portland Trailblazers.  Wouldn't you guys agree that doesn't really help your cause here?

AK has a bad game offensively while the top two Jazz offensive players get their normal numbers and the Jazz score 89 points (almost 20 below their average) and lose . . . and that indicates what? Are you doing drugs right now?


Okay, I think I answered every question you asked in that post. I have responded in very simple words that were chosen very carefully. It should be fairly difficult to misinterpret or twist them, but I am not underestimating your skill.

[Lurker]

The Showtime Lakers ran the offense through 3 main players...Kareem, Magic, and James Worthy.  Kareem and Magic  as the first two options in the offense.  James Worthy was that 3rd option that they went to for offense quite a bit. Worthy could pass the ball as well.  He was a very good finisher.   Can AK produce consistently more then just passing? 

Actually this is the closest to understanding this thread that you have come up with.  Worthy's role = AK's role.

Worthy was was third option.  He scored a lot in the open floor (like AK).  He was an above average passer for a big man (like AK).  He had a reliable jumper out to 12-15 feet (like AK).  Worthy was more athletic; AK plays better defense.  But their roles in the respective offenses were/are very similar.

And just because we have gone way too long without a reference point to keep us all sane...Kobe sucks!

[Ted]

Actually this is the closest to understanding this thread that you have come up with.  Worthy's role = AK's role.

Worthy was was third option.  He scored a lot in the open floor (like AK).  He was an above average passer for a big man (like AK).  He had a reliable jumper out to 12-15 feet (like AK).  Worthy was more athletic; AK plays better defense.  But their roles in the respective offenses were/are very similar.

And just because we have gone way too long without a reference point to keep us all sane...Kobe sucks!

Thank you for bringing us back to indisputable truth Lurker. I would just say one thing: I think Worthy may have played a similar role, but he was a much better scorer on offense than AK. And I think they may be pretty close on athleticism; however, I don't see Worthy being able to block Yao Ming's shot. Then again, I only remember him playing in the 1987 to 1991 era, which is when I started to pay attention to the NBA. You see, I was living in the Chicago and the Bulls had the third pick in the draft in '85 and they picked this guy from North Carolina and . . .

[westkoast]

The Showtime Lakers ran the offense through 3 main players...Kareem, Magic, and James Worthy.  Kareem and Magic  as the first two options in the offense.  James Worthy was that 3rd option that they went to for offense quite a bit. Worthy could pass the ball as well.  He was a very good finisher.   Can AK produce consistently more then just passing? 

Actually this is the closest to understanding this thread that you have come up with.  Worthy's role = AK's role.

Worthy was was third option.  He scored a lot in the open floor (like AK).  He was an above average passer for a big man (like AK).  He had a reliable jumper out to 12-15 feet (like AK).  Worthy was more athletic; AK plays better defense.  But their roles in the respective offenses were/are very similar.

And just because we have gone way too long without a reference point to keep us all sane...Kobe sucks!

AK does not have what James Worthy does on the offensive end.  Thank you for finally understanding MY point.  When has AK ever produced what James Worthy did to warrant him being the teams James Worthy?  Worthy averaged 17 points and 3.3 assists his entire career with a bulk of his years of 20 points or more for the entire season.  In AK's 6 seasons he's averaged 13 points and 2.6 assists.  His very best year matches up with Worthy's 2nd worst year.    He is end of his career James Worthy when he was no longer a focus of the Laker offense caliber.    With all that said plenty of James Worthy's offense was generated by his point guard...hmmmmm see where I am going with this?

The Jazz are losing because AK is not getting enough touches and lack of defense.  AK sounds like the savior in this spot then.  According to Lurker he can score night in and night out like James Worthy (we can get into who created points for Worthy later lol) and we all know how good of a defender he is.  So currently the Jazz are in a skid because of AK and only AK can get them out.  Just want to be clear here.  Let me know when he starts to prove me wrong!  I look foward to discussing the Jazz the entire season.  Should mix things up around here.

[Ted]

The Jazz are losing because AK is not getting enough touches and lack of defense. So currently the Jazz are in a skid because of AK and only AK can get them out.  Just want to be clear here.

Who said that? AK does not control how many touches he gets. Deron Williams determines that.

And as for why the Jazz are losing, you are again ignoring what we say and replacing it with whatever you please. Let me repeat myself: The Jazz are losing because they can't stop dribble penetration, are slow on help defense, and are struggling on offense. I guess you will make your own conclusions from the fact that Deron and Boozer are still getting their offensive numbers and yet the Jazz are scoring fewer points while AK gets fewer touches and struggles offensively.

[westkoast]

No I do not think he has the offensive weapons to run the "point forward" position.

Good neither do I.  Just trying to get a feel for where you think his 'creative offense' plays into this team in the grand scheme of moving up as a contender for a title.

Indeed, that is NOT what we two have envisioned, and we have made that point abundantly clear. Andrei Kirilenko is not a point forward. He is an especially effective cog in an offensive scheme designed to involve more than two players.

Well I was under the impression that Skander was talking about his play making ability and passing.  Clearly that would put him in a role as a point forward if it is his job to execute passes in the offense right?  You are not talking about any of his other offensive game because we all agree it is limited.  He proved that to us all last year.

The only similarity I see between AK and Manu is the fact that they are both part of an offensive scheme designed to involve more than two players. Yes, even with the best big man in the league, the Spurs involve multiple players on offense. Anyway, I think Manu can create his own shot and is a much better overall scorer than Andrei.

Which is why the ball actually runs through Manu.  He takes control of the offense in the 4th quarter because the offense runs best through him in that situation.  No one is going to say the ball runs through Robert Horry even though he is on the floor at that time making passes.

I wouldn't say his game is like Lamar Odom's. Odom is a better ball handler and scorer than Andrei. As far as defense, offensive rebounding and team play, AK is better IMO.

Agreed.

No, I don't want him to be like Vlade. I want him to defend.

On the offensive end....

You both have spoke about AK playing a facilitator role eh?

I think you can comprehend anything you want to. I think you deliberately misinterpret our words.

At times you two are not 100% clear on what you are trying to say.  While I have bent a few things to make this thread a bit more interesting I just downright don't agree he has shown anything up to this point to warrant this offensive jump in responsibility.  I don't think his game can do what you want. 

Not to be rude or condescending, but how old were you when the Showtime Lakers actually played? I personally was between the ages of 8 and 12 and haven't watched enough ESPN Classic, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on how they played. I do hear they moved the ball around A LOT.

I am 26 years old.  So you don't sound too much older then me.    I was old enough to watch Showtime Lakers later on.  While I was not old enough to digest everything they were doing my step father explained things to me.  NBA basketball in our household was what NFL football is to most other families.  We were def a 'Laker family'   I've seen my fair share of 80s basketball.  ESPN Classic is one of my 4 favorite channels on my tv, I have plenty of Lakers games either from my step dad, on dvd or ripped on my computer hd.  Even over the last year I figured out  you can use youtube to find a bunch as well.

Here are AK's offensive strengths as I see them this year: free throw shooting, moving without the ball, passing to people moving w/o the ball, leading and/or finishing the fast break, jump shooting from 16-18 feet and in, and offensive rebounding. This set of offensive skills would NOT make him interchangeable with a Lamar Odom or Manu Ginobili. I would say he is a different player. (Yes I realize how earthshattering that statement is.)

That sounds like a point forward to me with a little bit more finisher mixed in.  Scottie Pippen?  I don't see it.  Like I said though I say we keep this going for the whole year.  It'll force me to pay more attention to the Jazz and we can continue to discuss this through out the whole year to mix things up.  I think you and Skandery are wrong.  Let's have AK prove it and debate about it.

As many as they attempt. They'll probably have less success than they would against other teams. But if they're running the offense the way Sloan wants them to, they'll make as many cuts as they attempt. Whether or not that type of offense is successful depends on when the cut is made, how accurate the pass is, and how well the cutter is defended. When the Jazz are really on, it doesn't matter where the defender is because the cuts and passes are so perfectly timed that the play is almost indefensible. In fact, to stop it, the defender is forced to foul. 

You don't back cut good defensive teams that early.  That doesn't factor in rotations of those same good defensive teams.

If they run the offense the way Sloan wants them to then everyone should be able to know when to make the bounce pass to a cutter.  What I am saying is other players can learn to do what AK just as easy as he can become this legit 3rd option that teams have to pay close attention to.

For one, the Jazz are losing because the opposing team's primary ball handler is getting into the lane with absurd ease and the help defense is slow. Secondarily, as you so astutely and conveniently pointed out, AK is having substandard games, getting fewer touches, and the offense is underperforming. AK has bad games and the Jazz lose. Thanks for helping me solidify my original point.

Doesn't AK play the help defender?  Did you guys ever think that if you expect more then he has produced in the last few years on the offensive end he may not do the things on defense as quick or well as he did before?  Just curious....

So because AK is not doing well the team is not doing well?  What about the night he had 10 points 8 asssists 6 rebounds and 5 blocks?  I would consider that "well" for AK and yet they still lost?

And yet . . . throughout the losing streak, Deron and Boozer have been getting their numbers while the rest of the team has fallen off. That there 2 on 5 offense doesn't seem to be cutting it.

I never said 2 vs 5.  Don't accuse me of purposely misinterprting things and then do the same thing lol

What I did say is that they should be creating all the offense either by scoring, passing, creating space, or exploiting mismatches on the offensive end.  Can you name more then 3 point guards who guard Deron very well?  Can you  name 3 power forwards that guard Boozer very well?  Now can you name 3 SG/SFs who can guard AK very well?  I'll kick a few...Lebron, Kobe, Bowen, Ron Artest, Dwayne Wade, Corey Magette.

You have offered no real statistical proof or logical reasoning to refute Skander's solid evidence against this claim.

Yea I admit I haven't provided a lot of my own.  AK did most of the heavy lifting last year when he tried to make himself apart of the offense taking players on the wing trying to shoot jump shots.

Well actually I did provide some statistical evidence....when AK was not apart of the offense like you guys want him to be the Jazz made it to the Western Conference finals losing to the championship team because they couldn't defend them as their PG had no trouble scoring on them.

I honestly think that? Gee, I'll have to go find the post in which Skander or I said this. I love how this method of argument comes so easily to you.

Cool then we agree that other players can learn to fill the exact same spot AK does since he is not so consistent on that end of the floor.

AK has a bad game offensively while the top two Jazz offensive players get their normal numbers and the Jazz score 89 points (almost 20 below their average) and lose . . . and that indicates what? Are you doing drugs right now?

AK did not facitate the offense like you guys have envisioned him and yet they lost only  by 8 shooting 38% and 27% from long range?  While Portland shot 47% from 3.  Sounds like if they would have defended the 3 a tiny bit better they wouldn't need AK on the offensive end at all.  Hmmm.

[Skandery]

Ted has answered most questions and rebuttals but I wanted to touch on a couple things:

Do you think that AK has the offensive weapons to run the point forward position through him ala Scottie Pippen?  Or is that not what you two have envisioned?  Was it more like Manu where he has offense ran through him for portions of the game because of his offensive creativity?  Or was it more like Lamar Odom where he rebounds the ball and pushes it?  Maybe you wanted him to be more like Vlade Divac where he wasn't one of the big two but he could move the ball?

Actually I'm going to disagree with Lurker's answer to this one.  AK is not James Worthy at all (nowhere near the scorer), but of the players westkoast mentions in this quoted paragraph, I think the best fit is Vlade Divac <Take away the defensive side of the ball for a minute since this thread is about Andrei's contributions offensively>.  Lucky for me Vlade has been recently discussed in the other thread and JoMaL had this to say:  

"But most importantly, his center in Sacramento was Vlade Divac, who seems to grow in stature the longer he is away from the game. In fact, I would just come out and say that the main difference between what Adelman is working with now compared to his Kings' days is Vlade. He made that offense what it was, no question about it."

I think JoMaL beautifully illustrates my point about how AK contributes.  Do you notice that with those great Sacramento teams, you had 1st option PF Webber (Boozer), 2nd option PG Bibby (Williams), and 3rd option scorer Peja (Okur).  But which player "made the offense what it was", Vlade (Andrei) as the facilitator of the offense.  What Vlade did for the Kings in Passing, Floor Spacing, and Screening Andrei does for the Jazz.

3 points,  0 assists, 2 turn overs in 26 minutes of play

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games.  In any event, Ted makes a great observation:  Kirilenko has a bad game and the Jazz lose.  The bad game can happen for whatever reason, too, don't think I'll give a free pass to Kirilenko when the bad game happens because he's benched for making stupid turnovers or has low minutes because of foul trouble.  If he is deliberately under-utilized when he's on the court, that is the Coach AND the Point Guard's fault, though.  Especially when its in the Jazz best interest to have him involved.  

As a slight digression, as much trouble as we (including me) give AK about his shooting.  The guy is still shooting 47.6% from the field and attempts only the 5th most field goals per game (7.6) on the Jazz.  So he is not a shot hog and he isn't inefficient the few times he does choose to shoot.

[westkoast]

I think JoMaL beautifully illustrates my point about how AK contributes.  Do you notice that with those great Sacramento teams, you had 1st option PF Webber (Boozer), 2nd option PG Bibby (Williams), and 3rd option scorer Peja (Okur).  But which player "made the offense what it was", Vlade (Andrei) as the facilitator of the offense.  What Vlade did for the Kings in Passing, Floor Spacing, and Screening Andrei does for the Jazz.

Vlade did it every game though.  .  We love to knock ol C-Webb but he was the most versatile player on the block in the league at one point.  It was what Chris Webber created both with the attention he demands, his scoring ability, and his passing on the block TEAMED UP with Vlade getitng it done every night that made it a nice fluid offense.  The Jazz offense won't look like that though.  You are wishing upon a star if you think it would look as good as the Kings in their hay day if AK improved.

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games. 

Please.  The reason Reality was called on it was for a much different reason.  Clearly you remember why he was called on it if you brought it up.  In case you forgot, Reality posting Kobe scoring 22 points on 11-26 shooting with 4 assists and then saying  Kobe never passed the ball to teammates FOR THE WIN  is different.  He was called out because in one of the games players were missing wide open shots setup by Kobe so his assists didn't reflect ball movement in the box score.  If he had watched the game he would have known he was making passes but no one could make anything.

The point I am proving is that he is not consistent enough in my eyes to be considered this offensive savior who is going to make the Jazz that much better then last year.  So a stat line that shows 3 points no assists and 2 turn overs is easy enough to see and say 'his offensive game was poor against a poor defensive team'.   

As a slight digression, as much trouble as we (including me) give AK about his shooting.  The guy is still shooting 47.6% from the field and attempts only the 5th most field goals per game (7.6) on the Jazz.  So he is not a shot hog and he isn't inefficient the few times he does choose to shoot.

How many of those shots are pure jump shots though?

He is not a shot hog and I think it is good he is not because he is not a scorer.   I think if you want to have offense ran through you, you have to be more then one dimensional on the offensive end.

[Reality]

'Koast, I thought we'd evolved passed mere boxscore regurgitation ever since you called Reality on it when he was pointing out Kobe's bad games.  

It sure is different when you see Kobe go 7-24 as opposed to just seeing the lowlights and/or reading it in the boxscore.  You know because, well I'll let you explain.