If there was a 3 v 3 pick up game would you take Duncan/Parker/Manu or...

[westkoast]

KG/Pierce/Allen???

Who would you take and why?

[Derek Bodner]

KG, Pierce and Allen.

Run the ball through KG, and you can take Duncan away from the hoop.  Now you're forcing Parker and Manu to guard their mans 1-1, and I don't think they can.

Furthermore, I think Pierce, Allen and KG play well off each other.  Parker plays greatly off Duncan, and so does Manu, but I don't think either one elevates the others game (i.e. I think Manu would be just as good if Parker went down and it was Manu and Duncan, and I think Parker would play just as well if Manu went down and it was just Parker and Duncan).  Allen's shooting opens the lane up for KG, and opens up driving lanes for Pierce by preventing double teams.  Pierces driving forces defenses to collapse and creates easy baskets for allen (3 pt shots) and KG (when his man goes to double team).

[rickortreat]

I take the Boston group simply because Pierce is so much more of an offensive threat than Manu.  And I would also take Allen with his outside game over Parker.

I think Duncan is slightly better than KG, or at least more consistently sound in rebounding and defense. But not by much and not enough to offset the advantage from Pierce and Allen.

It's not that Parker and Manu aren't great players, but I don't think they can both stay in a shooting match with Boston's players.

If these two teams end up in the finals, the depth of the Spurs and the completeness of their team is their edge.  It will be the Bowen's and Horry's that make the difference.

[Reality]

I take the Boston group simply because Pierce is so much more of an offensive threat than Manu. 

No way.  Manu can score in 14 different ways and most importantly has proved it 3Xs by stepping it up in the playoffs.  I agree Pierces and Allens height would be an advantage and do not doubt the 3Cs could win in this playground game.

SuperManu is #7 NBA in points per minute and #2 in points per fga.  All as a #2 or #3 option in offensively unfriendly Popavichs system.  Except when the 4th qtr hits and game is on the line.
http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dibujodu5.jpg

And I would also take Allen with his outside game over Parker

  Parker would drive on Soft Ray day and night.  Its a wash. 

[Lurker]

I would take the Spurs.  For one they have been together longer and have better chemistry.

Parker's speed would burn either Pierce or Allen.  And Ginobili would have either one of those guys off balance also...wondering whether he will pop the 3 or fake and drive. If KG rotated to help who would stop Duncan at the rim?  And if Duncan is in the low post KG can't stop him 1 on 1 consistantly.   

The Celts (Kelts?    ) are also a strong offensive unit but IMO would get out of their style by trying to post Pierce & Allen.  Those 3 work best with KG creating from the low to mid block range.  That opens the floor for Pierce and Allen to shoot.  But Duncan is one of the few players who can make it tough for KG in the post.  3 on 3 also makes it tougher to set screens to free jump shooters...something that both Pierce & Allen thrive on in the NBA game.

 

[westkoast]

I would also take the Spurs trio

DB it doesn't matter about double teams because the Spurs don't need to double team.  They don't even double team as a whole unit as it is.   Parker can guard Ray Allen, Manu can guard Pierce, Duncan can guard KG.   Ray Allen cannot guard Parker, Pierce cannot guard Manu.

I'll take Parker's 50% layups over Ray Allen's 45% outside shooting.

I'll take Manu's 3 point shooting over Paul Pierce's 3.  I would also go out on a limb and say Manu slashes better then Pierce.

I'll take Duncan in the post over KG.  Duncan has a shot at guarding KG but KG can't really guard Duncan.

I'm not trying to go off records here because the truth of the matter is that the Celtics have 9 wins against sub .500 teams and never played a WC team on the road.  The Spurs trio have championships between them.

[Derek Bodner]

I'll take Parker's 50% layups over Ray Allen's 45% outside shooting.

You do realize a 3 pointer is worth 1 more point than a field goal, right?

Let's look at it this way.  Let's say Ray Allen shoots his career percentages.  On his career, he's 4065-8581 (47.3%) from 2 pt field goals, 39.6% from 3 pt range (1958-4941).  For Parker's career, he's 2766-5366 from 2 (51.5%), 280-882 from 3 (31.7%).  Let's say that both of these players maintained the same percentage of 3's per fga (36.5% of Ray Allen's attempts are 3's, 14.1% of Parker's), and convert at their career percentages.  Now let's say each get 25 field goal attempts per game.
Ray Allen:
2 pt fg's: 7-15 (14 pts)
3 pt fg's: 4-10 (12 pts)
11-25 (26 pts)
Tony Parker:
2 pt fg's: 11-22 (22 pts)
3pt fg's: 1-3 (3 pts)
12-25 (25 pts)

Ray Allen's 45% shooting is most definitely worth more than Tony Parker's 49% career shooting. 

[westkoast]

I'll take Parker's 50% layups over Ray Allen's 45% outside shooting.

You do realize a 3 pointer is worth 1 more point than a field goal, right?

Let's look at it this way.  Let's say Ray Allen shoots his career percentages.  On his career, he's 4065-8581 (47.3%) from 2 pt field goals, 39.6% from 3 pt range (1958-4941).  For Parker's career, he's 2766-5366 from 2 (51.5%), 280-882 from 3 (31.7%).  Let's say that both of these players maintained the same percentage of 3's per fga (36.5% of Ray Allen's attempts are 3's, 14.1% of Parker's), and convert at their career percentages.  Now let's say each get 25 field goal attempts per game.
Ray Allen:
2 pt fg's: 7-15 (14 pts)
3 pt fg's: 4-10 (12 pts)
11-25 (26 pts)
Tony Parker:
2 pt fg's: 11-22 (22 pts)
3pt fg's: 1-3 (3 pts)
12-25 (25 pts)

Ray Allen's 45% shooting is most definitely worth more than Tony Parker's 49% career shooting. 

I do know it is one more point.  Do you know a 3 is less likely to go in then a layup?  When did Ray Allen become a good defender?

You of all people should know that the stats you provided don't really mean much considering their roles on the court and inside the systems they use to play for.

[Derek Bodner]

I do know it is one more point.  Do you know a 3 is less likely to go in then a layup?

Hence why I showed it the way that I did.  a 40% 3 pt shooter gets more point than a 50% layup.

When did Ray Allen become a good defender?

You of all people should know that the stats you provided don't really mean much considering their roles on the court and inside the systems they use to play for.

Irrelevant.  I wasn't arguing all around game, just your assertion that you would take a 50% layup over ray allen's 45%.

[westkoast]

I do know it is one more point.  Do you know a 3 is less likely to go in then a layup?

Hence why I showed it the way that I did.  a 40% 3 pt shooter gets more point than a 50% layup.

When did Ray Allen become a good defender?

You of all people should know that the stats you provided don't really mean much considering their roles on the court and inside the systems they use to play for.

Irrelevant.  I wasn't arguing all around game, just your assertion that you would take a 50% layup over ray allen's 45%.

It still holds true.  A layup stays down more often then an outside shot.  The chance of Tony Parker staying true to his 50% is more because he is still making a layup.  Ray Allen has to be on that day to even shoot 45% so regardless if there is an extra point involved if Ray Allen is not on, he is not on.  Ray Allen is shooting 41% from the field currently with two other options ahead of him to distract the defense.  You don't have to be "on" to make layups on the regular.

[Derek Bodner]

It still holds true.  A layup stays down more often then an outside shot

But that doesn't mean it's worth more than an outside shot.  Through 13,522 shots in his career, Allen has managed to hit 44.5% of them.  I think that's a decent enough sample size to accurately assess how accurate he is.

Furthermore, you don't want a team full of drivers.  The spacing the big 3 in Boston provide are a perfect combination.

[rickortreat]

I do know it is one more point.  Do you know a 3 is less likely to go in then a layup?

Hence why I showed it the way that I did.  a 40% 3 pt shooter gets more point than a 50% layup.

When did Ray Allen become a good defender?

You of all people should know that the stats you provided don't really mean much considering their roles on the court and inside the systems they use to play for.

Irrelevant.  I wasn't arguing all around game, just your assertion that you would take a 50% layup over ray allen's 45%.

It still holds true.  A layup stays down more often then an outside shot.  The chance of Tony Parker staying true to his 50% is more because he is still making a layup.  Ray Allen has to be on that day to even shoot 45% so regardless if there is an extra point involved if Ray Allen is not on, he is not on.  Ray Allen is shooting 41% from the field currently with two other options ahead of him to distract the defense.  You don't have to be "on" to make layups on the regular.

That is ridiculous!  Ray Allen on average puts up those numbers, shooting just under 40% from 3 point range.  When he's on, he's shooting more like 45% from that range and when he's off he's shooting more like 35% from that far.  In either case, his ability to shoot from that far out stretches a defense, and any effort by Parker to trade baskets means the Boston team wins.  Parker would have to hit 60% of his regular shots just to keep up.

Pierce is a beast compared with Manu.  Manu cannot guard Pierce anywhere on the floor.  They can put Garnett out at the top of the lane and let Pierce post Manu up all game. If Duncan comes down to help, KG gets an open free throw shot.  Manu is a better shooter than Pierce is, but going one on one, Pierce has the advantage, he is a better rebounder and a better passer.

[westkoast]

Rick...on his career he doesn't even shoot 45% so are you saying he's not on very often from 3?  He even has the luxury of having a legit low post scoring threat and he's shooting 37% right now.

Parker shouldn't have a problem hitting 60% of his shots considering that Ray Allen can't guard anyone, let alone someone as quick as Tony Parker.  I didn't realize he became an awesome defender over night.  Everything said about Duncan coming over to help Manu applies to KG having to help Ray Allen.  If Parker doesn't get an easy lay up then Duncan gets a dunk.

Since when is 3 point shooting better then getting to the rim?

[rickortreat]

Westkoast,

Ray Allen's career average from 3-pt range is .396, just .004 from 40%!

This year he's shooting a little worse, just .358, but it is early in the season and he's with new teamates, so he's not getting quite the same shots as he used to. 

And a three-pointer is more damaging to another team than a layup.  Both plays really frustrate defenses - teams feel a little better about giving up a 3 pointer that a layup, but over time the 3 point shooter prevents your team from catching up.

Three pointers are devastating to a team that's trying to stay close or catch up.  A team can make up for a layup by scoring on the other end.  A 3 pointer means that you need one yourself to match it, and not all teams are proficient at making them.

No, Allen can't defend Parker, but Parker can't stay with Ray Allen either.  Parker is not a great defender at the guard spot. He's not high on the list for steals. He's quick on offense, but not so fast on defense.

[Lurker]

It is more difficult to get an open perimeter shot in a 3 on 3 game.  Same thing for getting an open jumpshot...there isn't the 2 extra players to set screens or rotate the ball.  So KG holds the ball at the top of the key and PP sets a screen for Allen so he can get an open look? 

And I have no problem with KG taking 12-15 foot jumpshots.  Especially if the Spurs are getting layups and dominating the glass.

And Rick...I just finally stopped laughing over this comment:

Manu is a better shooter than Pierce is, but going one on one, Pierce has the advantage, he is a better rebounder and a better passer.

Let's see...37.8 minutes vs 28.7 minutes.  PP: 5.6 reb, 4.8 assts  Manu: 4.7 reb, 4.3 assts  So in 9 extra minutes on the court Pierce grabs 1 extra rebound and has .5 extra assists.  WOW!!!!!  He really must be
head and shoulders above Manu.  BTW have you ever watched the Argentina national team play?  Ginobili has this "refuse to lose" attitude that I have never seen Pierce exhibit.

Now if you want to change the game to H-O-R-S-E then I vote for the Celtics.