Midseason trades and Championships

[Reality]

Accoding to .500 Dynasty supporters, no way could Kobe Bryant have been traded in 2003-4 like Phil Jackson asked for.  Nor can he be traded in 2007 they claim, just could not and cannot be done.

W.O.W.

That [Kobester being traded in 2003-4] is just as true now [2007] as it was back then.  Why is it so hard for people, or just you, to understand that Kobe's contract would only guarantee ONE year of play with his old contract.  Why would any team, other than one with you as the GM, trade away the talent needed to land a Kobe Bryant with the risk of Kobe leaving after only ONE season?  Why would ANY team trade for Kobe if he could opt out after ONE season? 

Just cannot trade Kobe now or then, so say the Five Hundred Forever backers.
W.O.Wkoast

EXACTLY!!!!  As a GM of an NBA franchise would you take that risk?

So, what other midseason trades have taken place, and what was the outcome.  Lets limit it to Championship ball.  Lets make it be perrennial All Stars only.  How about GF position only?

Clyde Drexler.  Left Portland in Feb of '95.  Back to back Championships in 95 and 96 as he teamed with Hakeem.
Anything Kobesters done, Clyde has already.  Altho it could be argued Clyde had a superior center in Houston, we get the accomplishment.

Mark Aguirre Detroit Pistons 1989 and '90 seasons.  Came over from Dallas in Feb of 1989 for Adrian Dantley and a first round draft pick.  Back to Back Championships as Det took down the Lakers and Portland.

Sheed was already mentioned, coming over in Feb from Portland and spanking that Kobe team in 2004.  Finals again in 2005 getting to a 7th game vs the Spurs. 

So, while Kobester could go help a team win a title in 2008 Playoffs and beyond, lets get it straight from one of the "experts" why he can not do that:
W.O.W.

Kobe's LEVERAGE back then is that he didn't HAVE TO nor WOULD HE agree to a sign n trade.  You cannot force Kobe to so something he doesn't want to do, that is clearly obvious.

So true, so true.  As is this:

Joe Vancil  

You see, you may believe this notion - a very correct one, in my opinion - that the Lakers are bigger than any player - but the Laker front office didn't see it that way when Kobe made his threat.  If they had, then they'd have done the sign-and-trade of Kobe then.  And they could have gotten away with it then, because there were teams out there that thought Kobe could carry a team to the championship by himself, and Kobe believed that, too.

No, the Lakers made the WRONG decision.  The correct decision would have been to keep Shaq, and trade Kobe, because KOBE was the one who bought into the belief that he was bigger than the Lakers...and, as you have seen, he persists in that belief.  The Lakers front office foolishly believed that Bryant was loyal to anyone other than Bryant, and it cost them.  YES - it's their fault - for capitulating to a self-important dweeb who hasn't got a loyal bone in his body.

Lastly WOW, if a Kobe team wins 98 games, how many will that team lose?

[WayOutWest]

Accoding to .500 Dynasty supporters, no way could Kobe Bryant have been traded in 2003-4 like Phil Jackson asked for.  Nor can he be traded in 2007 they claim, just could not and cannot be done.

W.O.W.

That [Kobester being traded in 2003-4] is just as true now [2007] as it was back then.  Why is it so hard for people, or just you, to understand that Kobe's contract would only guarantee ONE year of play with his old contract.  Why would any team, other than one with you as the GM, trade away the talent needed to land a Kobe Bryant with the risk of Kobe leaving after only ONE season?  Why would ANY team trade for Kobe if he could opt out after ONE season? 

Just cannot trade Kobe now or then, so say the Five Hundred Forever backers.
W.O.Wkoast

EXACTLY!!!!  As a GM of an NBA franchise would you take that risk?

So, what other midseason trades have taken place, and what was the outcome.  Lets limit it to Championship ball.  Lets make it be perrennial All Stars only.  How about GF position only?



Clyde Drexler.  Left Portland in Feb of '95.  Back to back Championships in 95 and 96 as he teamed with Hakeem.
Anything Kobesters done, Clyde has already.  Altho it could be argued Clyde had a superior center in Houston, we get the accomplishment.

Mark Aguirre Detroit Pistons 1989 and '90 seasons.  Came over from Dallas in Feb of 1989 for Adrian Dantley and a first round draft pick.  Back to Back Championships as Det took down the Lakers and Portland.

Sheed was already mentioned, coming over in Feb from Portland and spanking that Kobe team in 2004.  Finals again in 2005 getting to a 7th game vs the Spurs. 

So, while Kobester could go help a team win a title in 2008 Playoffs and beyond, lets get it straight from one of the "experts" why he can not do that:
W.O.W.

Kobe's LEVERAGE back then is that he didn't HAVE TO nor WOULD HE agree to a sign n trade.  You cannot force Kobe to so something he doesn't want to do, that is clearly obvious.

So true, so true.  As is this:

Joe Vancil  

You see, you may believe this notion - a very correct one, in my opinion - that the Lakers are bigger than any player - but the Laker front office didn't see it that way when Kobe made his threat.  If they had, then they'd have done the sign-and-trade of Kobe then.  And they could have gotten away with it then, because there were teams out there that thought Kobe could carry a team to the championship by himself, and Kobe believed that, too.

No, the Lakers made the WRONG decision.  The correct decision would have been to keep Shaq, and trade Kobe, because KOBE was the one who bought into the belief that he was bigger than the Lakers...and, as you have seen, he persists in that belief.  The Lakers front office foolishly believed that Bryant was loyal to anyone other than Bryant, and it cost them.  YES - it's their fault - for capitulating to a self-important dweeb who hasn't got a loyal bone in his body.

YAWN

98

[Lurker]

So, what other midseason trades have taken place, and what was the outcome.  Lets limit it to Championship ball.  Lets make it be perrennial All Stars only.  How about GF position only?

Clyde Drexler.  Left Portland in Feb of '95.  Back to back Championships in 95 and 96 as he teamed with Hakeem.
Anything Kobesters done, Clyde has already.  Altho it could be argued Clyde had a superior center in Houston, we get the accomplishment.

Mark Aguirre Detroit Pistons 1989 and '90 seasons.  Came over from Dallas in Feb of 1989 for Adrian Dantley and a first round draft pick.  Back to Back Championships as Det took down the Lakers and Portland.

Sheed was already mentioned, coming over in Feb from Portland and spanking that Kobe team in 2004.  Finals again in 2005 getting to a 7th game vs the Spurs. 

And which of those guys were top 5 players that were traded for equal value?  Which ones went to established teams and were expected to be the leading scorer/player?  How many were under multiyear contracts at the time of the trade?  If you want to compare the situations then you need to use ones that have the same fact scenarios.

[Reality]

And which of those guys were top 5 players that were traded for equal value? 

Clyde was mos def a top player.  You can argue whether or not that was top 5 or top 20.
Who says the trade has to be equal value?  Why does that condition have to be put on?  Yawn WOW has long since claimed that equal value will never be obtained since all the Laker soap opera actors and actresses, Kobe included have gone public.

Which ones went to established teams and were expected to be the leading scorer/player?

  Who says Kobe has to be the leading scorer/player?  Coming to the Spurs would enable him the opportunity to be a team player on at least one Championship team.  He could be part of a repeat this year, possibly a legitimate 3peat the following year.  No way would he supplant Tim Duncar as the leader. 

How many were under multiyear contracts at the time of the trade?  If you want to compare the situations then you need to use ones that have the same fact scenarios.

  Kobester was in the final year in 04 and has two years left on his current one. 

[WayOutWest]

And which of those guys were top 5 players that were traded for equal value? 

Clyde was mos def a top player.  You can argue whether or not that was top 5 or top 20.
Who says the trade has to be equal value?  Why does that condition have to be put on?  Yawn WOW has long since claimed that equal value will never be obtained since all the Laker soap opera actors and actresses, Kobe included have gone public.

Which ones went to established teams and were expected to be the leading scorer/player?

  Who says Kobe has to be the leading scorer/player?  Coming to the Spurs would enable him the opportunity to be a team player on at least one Championship team.  He could be part of a repeat this year, possibly a legitimate 3peat the following year.  No way would he supplant Tim Duncar as the leader. 

How many were under multiyear contracts at the time of the trade?  If you want to compare the situations then you need to use ones that have the same fact scenarios.

  Kobester was in the final year in 04 and has two years left on his current one. 

YAWN

97

[Reality]

W.O.W. = Wild Blue YAWNder when his argument is smashed.

[westkoast]

And which of those guys were top 5 players that were traded for equal value? 

Clyde was mos def a top player.  You can argue whether or not that was top 5 or top 20.
Who says the trade has to be equal value?  Why does that condition have to be put on?  Yawn WOW has long since claimed that equal value will never be obtained since all the Laker soap opera actors and actresses, Kobe included have gone public.

Which ones went to established teams and were expected to be the leading scorer/player?

  Who says Kobe has to be the leading scorer/player?  Coming to the Spurs would enable him the opportunity to be a team player on at least one Championship team.  He could be part of a repeat this year, possibly a legitimate 3peat the following year.  No way would he supplant Tim Duncar as the leader. 

How many were under multiyear contracts at the time of the trade?  If you want to compare the situations then you need to use ones that have the same fact scenarios.

  Kobester was in the final year in 04 and has two years left on his current one. 

YAWN

97

I thought we were at 88 already?!

Reality why is it so hard to understand you cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

They have opt'd out of their contract and are not legally bound to any team.  This is also know as becoming a free agent...which means you can go anywhere your heart desires.

They have a no trade clause in their contract allowing them to turn down potential trades

[WayOutWest]

W.O.W. = Wild Blue YAWNder when his argument is smashed.

This board would be alot more fun if you could come up with original material.

[Reality]

Reality why is it so hard to understand you cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

They have opt'd out of their contract and are not legally bound to any team.  This is also know as becoming a free agent...which means you can go anywhere your heart desires.

Kobe was under contract in 2003-4 to the Lakers.  He was not a free agent.  Do you understand that?

They have a no trade clause in their contract allowing them to turn down potential trades

Or allowing them to accept potential trades.  Do you understand that?

[WayOutWest]

Reality why is it so hard to understand you cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

They have opt'd out of their contract and are not legally bound to any team.  This is also know as becoming a free agent...which means you can go anywhere your heart desires.

They have a no trade clause in their contract allowing them to turn down potential trades

You cannot break it down any simplier than that and he still does NOT get it.  How do you sign and trade a player who does NOT have a contract with you beyond the end of the season.  NOW Kobe won't go to any team he doesn't want to, even worse they could pick Kobe's number one team choice BUT if they trade the wrong players Kobe will squash it as well.

wk, just go with the YAWN because you can see he doesn't get it.

[westkoast]

Reality why is it so hard to understand you cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

They have opt'd out of their contract and are not legally bound to any team.  This is also know as becoming a free agent...which means you can go anywhere your heart desires.

Kobe was under contract in 2003-4 to the Lakers.  He was not a free agent.  Do you understand that?

They have a no trade clause in their contract allowing them to turn down potential trades

Or allowing them to accept potential trades.  Do you understand that?

Reality he opt'd out right after they lost the finals in 03-04.  If the Lakers would have won the finals there would be no reason for them to trade him as he is a star player on a championship team.  So the Lakers waited to see what happend considering he lit the league on fire that year, they lost to Detroit, he opt'd out.  He was no longer under contract a week after they lost the finals.  Which means they could not work on a trade that involved Kobe.  Unlike yourself the NBA front offices do not just randomly make up and decide on trades in 10-15 minutes.   When he did finally re-sign with the Lakers there was a no-trade clause built into his contract.  Meaning if he says 'no trade' then there is no trade.  That is why it is called a 'no trade' clause.    The Lakers could not have decided to move him anywhere they wanted.  They were at his mercy because of the NO TRADE clause.    Why would ANYONE in that situation not look out for themselves and their career before an organization who wants to dump them?  THINK.

86

[Reality]

Reality he opt'd out right after they lost the finals in 03-04. 

The sky is blue.  The Earth is round.  The timeframe talked about for sign n trade is midseason 2003-4, not postseason 2004.  86 your twist.
I think you're Krishnaism is not allowing you to agree with me.  I'm only looking for small, comfortable gains in your and WoWs recovery so lets not try for too much in one thread.  WoW just saw some light in another and I'm -we're all- delighted!  So...
Here, take up this exact same point with Joe for a while.  He also thinks the Lakers could have and should have traded Kobe.

JoeV

You see, you may believe this notion - a very correct one, in my opinion - that the Lakers are bigger than any player - but the Laker front office didn't see it that way when Kobe made his threat.  If they had, then they'd have done the sign-and-trade of Kobe then.  And they could have gotten away with it then, because there were teams out there that thought Kobe could carry a team to the championship by himself, and Kobe believed that, too.

No, the Lakers made the WRONG decision.  The correct decision would have been to keep Shaq, and trade Kobe, because KOBE was the one who bought into the belief that he was bigger than the Lakers...and, as you have seen, he persists in that belief.  The Lakers front office foolishly believed that Bryant was loyal to anyone other than Bryant, and it cost them.  YES - it's their fault - for capitulating to a self-important dweeb who hasn't got a loyal bone in his body.

[Lurker]

Reality he opt'd out right after they lost the finals in 03-04. 

The sky is blue.  The Earth is round.  The timeframe talked about for sign n trade is midseason 2003-4, not postseason 2004.  86 your twist.
I think you're Krishnaism is not allowing you to agree with me.  I'm only looking for small, comfortable gains in your and WoWs recovery so lets not try for too much in one thread.  WoW just saw some light in another and I'm -we're all- delighted!  So...
Here, take up this exact same point with Joe for a while.  He also thinks the Lakers could have and should have traded Kobe.

JoeV

You see, you may believe this notion - a very correct one, in my opinion - that the Lakers are bigger than any player - but the Laker front office didn't see it that way when Kobe made his threat.  If they had, then they'd have done the sign-and-trade of Kobe then.  And they could have gotten away with it then, because there were teams out there that thought Kobe could carry a team to the championship by himself, and Kobe believed that, too.

No, the Lakers made the WRONG decision.  The correct decision would have been to keep Shaq, and trade Kobe, because KOBE was the one who bought into the belief that he was bigger than the Lakers...and, as you have seen, he persists in that belief.  The Lakers front office foolishly believed that Bryant was loyal to anyone other than Bryant, and it cost them.  YES - it's their fault - for capitulating to a self-important dweeb who hasn't got a loyal bone in his body.

But Joe isn't calling for a MID SEASON SIGN & TRADE...because....drum roll....YOU CANNOT SIGN & TRADE A PLAYER WHO IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONTRACT.  A sign & trade can only happen AFTER THE CURRENT CONTRACT EXPIRES.

San Diego style recap:

Kobe was under contract for the 2003-04 season.  Therefore a sign & trade could not happen.  And any team trading for Kobe would want a guarantee that he would sign an extension.  If Kobe would not indicate that he was willing to re-sign with the new team why would anyone gut their team to get Kobe for 2-3 months?  So in essence Kobe had control over any trading partners...Kevin Garnett pulled this same stunt this summer when first rumored to be headed for Boston.  It is very common for stars who are in their final year and involved in trade rumors to use their "ability to vote with thier feet" to controll potential destinations.

In the summer of 2004 Kobe signed a new contract THAT INCLUDED A NO-TRADE CLAUSE (more on this later).  But the key here is that Kobe was a free agent and HAD TO AGREE TO SIGN WHATEVER CONTRACT WAS NEGOTIATED.  A sign & trade might have been a great deal for the Lakers & probably for the other party involved.  However, Kobe would have had to agree.  Because you can't sign & trade someone if they refuse to sign.  Maybe I should say that again in bold: you can't sign & trade someone if they refuse to sign

The no-trade clause is the issue that is causing trouble now because CONTRACTUALLY Kobe has to approve of his destination.  And to make it even trickier he has said he will veto any deal that doesn't leave behind the players he wants.  SO IN SHORT HE WANTS TO PLAY GM FOR TWO TEAMS...THE LAKERS AND WHOEVER THEY TRADE WITH.

[Reality]

But Joe isn't calling for a MID SEASON SIGN & TRADE...because....drum roll....YOU CANNOT SIGN & TRADE A PLAYER WHO IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A CONTRACT.  A sign & trade can only happen AFTER THE CURRENT CONTRACT EXPIRES.

Joe, is that what you were suggesting?
Which is it, trade Kobe midseason 2003-4 or postseason 2004?

Drumroll on the drumroll.  Why would Kobe agree to do a sign and trade when he opted out after 2004 Finals loss?  He was an UFA, free to sign with whomever he wished.  To thank the Lakers for years of paychecks and service?  Not Kobes style.  To make the team he went to face a tougher Laker team?  He wouldn't.

[Lurker]

Drumroll on the drumroll.  Why would Kobe agree to do a sign and trade when he opted out after 2004 Finals loss?  He was an UFA, free to sign with whomever he wished.  To thank the Lakers for years of paychecks and service?  Not Kobes style.  To make the team he went to face a tougher Laker team?  He wouldn't.

To get more money.  A player's existing team (or the one who last held his contract for UFA) can offer up to 120% of previous contract plus 12.5% raises.  Any other team can only offer the max under the collective bargaining agreement and 10% raises. 

I can't believe you seriously asked that question.