Here is a good thread starter...

[Reality]

But Moses Malone deserves more credit than he is getting from this group.  He was not a short man- he was 6'11" and he outrebounded and outplayed Boston's front line when they had Parrish, Maxwell and Bird.  He also outplayed Kareem and Rambis when they rolled through LA in 4 to win the title.  He was a one man wrecking crew-his support was Marc Iavaroni!

Excuse me.  Malone went 1-4 vs the Celt frontline.
Mo Malone joined the Sixers.  Results
83 Glorious title, a 4-0 skunkin exposing the psuedo dynasty Lakers.
84 Worked by Bob Parish and company.
85  ditto
86  ditto

Malone-Parish battles were definitely great and were of the best two centers at the time.
Kream in the wimpiest West Conference of all time only managed to get past an injury riddled Celt team in 85.

Wow wasn't allowed to stay up late enough in 1984 to watch Bob work Kareem for the Championship.  1986 Wows curfew was extended by the *greatest center of all time* couldn't muster up even a West Conf Finals.

 

[westkoast]

But Moses Malone deserves more credit than he is getting from this group.  He was not a short man- he was 6'11" and he outrebounded and outplayed Boston's front line when they had Parrish, Maxwell and Bird.  He also outplayed Kareem and Rambis when they rolled through LA in 4 to win the title.  He was a one man wrecking crew-his support was Marc Iavaroni!

Excuse me.  Malone went 1-4 vs the Celt frontline.
Mo Malone joined the Sixers.  Results
83 Glorious title, a 4-0 skunkin exposing the psuedo dynasty Lakers.
84 Worked by Bob Parish and company.
85  ditto
86  ditto

Malone-Parish battles were definitely great and were of the best two centers at the time.
Kream in the wimpiest West Conference of all time only managed to get past an injury riddled Celt team in 85.

Wow wasn't allowed to stay up late enough in 1984 to watch Bob work Kareem for the Championship.  1986 Wows curfew was extended by the *greatest center of all time* couldn't muster up even a West Conf Finals.

 

4 titles is a pseudo dynasty but 3 Spurs titles in 5-6 years is a bona fide one? lol  Didn't realize the Cavs were a better team then the 87 Celts...hay you said it!

And maybe you should get your memory checked because the Lakers titled in the 86-87 season and were in the WCF in 85-86

[Derek Bodner]

And tell me...does stopping someone mean making them have bad numbers, or making them lose the game?

I actually have to agree with Rick.  These aren't mutually exclusive.  Just because a guy lost doesn't mean he didn't do his fair share.  Nor does it mean if the sides were reversed (wilt on celtics, russell in sixers) that the roles wouldn't have been reversed.

And, in fact, I'll bet that Baylor and West figure a lot more prominently in terms of greatest players ever than whatever Celtic not named Bill Russell from those historic teams do.

It's a shame Wilt was 32 by the time he got there, and clearly had his best days behind him.  This wasn't a prime wilt joining those players.

Regardless, wilt did win a championship when he played with those players.

Russell had the benefit of one of the greatest coaches ever, and the consistency of having him year after year.  That was a benefit to the team's success, IMO, and not something you can penalize Wilt for.

Russell was the ultimate TEAM player, on a team that was fit to him perfectly.  That doesn't mean Russell stopped Wilt.

[rickortreat]

But Moses Malone deserves more credit than he is getting from this group.  He was not a short man- he was 6'11" and he outrebounded and outplayed Boston's front line when they had Parrish, Maxwell and Bird.  He also outplayed Kareem and Rambis when they rolled through LA in 4 to win the title.  He was a one man wrecking crew-his support was Marc Iavaroni!

Excuse me.  Malone went 1-4 vs the Celt frontline.
Mo Malone joined the Sixers.  Results
83 Glorious title, a 4-0 skunkin exposing the psuedo dynasty Lakers.
84 Worked by Bob Parish and company.
85  ditto
86  ditto

Malone-Parish battles were definitely great and were of the best two centers at the time.
Kream in the wimpiest West Conference of all time only managed to get past an injury riddled Celt team in 85.

Wow wasn't allowed to stay up late enough in 1984 to watch Bob work Kareem for the Championship.  1986 Wows curfew was extended by the *greatest center of all time* couldn't muster up even a West Conf Finals.

 

Just how old was Moses when he started to loose?  He had won championships in Houston and Phila. and was on the tail end of his career.  Doc was old, Andrew Toney's knees went.  They were still a decent team- getting deep into the playoffs, but the Celts were better.  Not even the addition of Charles Barkley was enough to keep them even with the Celts.

[Reality]

Ahem.  Bob Parrish is two years older then Mo Malone.
In Houston, Malone led the 1981 Rockets to the Finals where, Bob Parish and the frontline Celts defeated the Rockets 4-2.  To this day Malone feels coach Del Harris was afraid of the Celtics and a contributing factor as to why they lost.

However Malone did start his career at age 19 in 1974-5 in the ABA, whereas Bob started in 76-77 in Golden State.

On the Wilt front, I think if Wilt had been on the Celtics the results would have been similiar.
Which still makes Russel great.   

[Skandery]

I never said Russell couldn't play or be successful in today's NBA! If such a thing could happen Russell in his prime would be the equal of anyone playing now, and superior to most. But if both Russell and Wilt were available, even knowing what we know now about the records, I would choose Chamberlain.  And, I love Bill Russell, a great player and a great human being. 

The simple fact is that teams today are so inferior to the teams back then that one stud could make the difference and out a team over the top. And Wilt could carry a team on his back.  Russell never had to and never did.

This is actually a very good and valid point you make here, Rick.  If both were to be transported to today's NBA, which would be more successful.  It's a good argument because with the individual-oriented, talent-diluted, league we have today, one would think Wilt would get the better of Russell.  Although you can't fully discount Russell due to how completely he could disrupt what a team was doing offensively and his fanatical obsession with winning. 

I actually have to agree with Rick.  These aren't mutually exclusive.  Just because a guy lost doesn't mean he didn't do his fair share.

I never disagreed with the fact that Wilt did his fair share.  He did better against Russell than any other player during that time and that alone is a testament to the guy's talent and skill level.

Russell was the ultimate TEAM player, on a team that was fit to him perfectly.  That doesn't mean Russell stopped Wilt.

Boston fit Russell to a tee.  Its amazing though how every team Russell was on seemed to do that.  Russell's University of San Franciso team went on an unheard of 55 game winning streak during his Junior and Senior years.  Also, his Olympic team was one of the most dominant American teams judging by margin of victory since the U.S. (in the good ole' days) never lost.

[Skandery]

WOW, you're getting a vote of endorsement from Rickortreat, the resident, self-contradicting, nonsense spewing, homer fanatic on the board.  I'll go ahead and accept the concession of your defeat.

 

Dammit!

I was in the laboratory for this and the guys around are wondering why I'm hysterically laughing at the computer.  You've gotta stop doing this to me, WOW.   

[Joe Vancil]

Just had a bit of time to read, and not really time to write (busy today), but I just can't let this one pass.

From rickortreat:

The simple fact is that teams today are so inferior to the teams back then that one stud could make the difference and out a team over the top. And Wilt could carry a team on his back.  Russell never had to and never did.

Russell stayed with the same team his whole career, with the best coach of all-time. Chamberlain played with 3 different teams and won Championships with 2 of them.

If Russell never had to carry a team, and never did carry a team, how do you explain his days in college, or the fact that that great Boston dynasty never won *BEFORE* Russell...and those championship Celtics from the year before were an under-.500 team *AFTER* Russell?

Russell won championships under just as many coaches as Chamberlain did...Red Auerbach and...Bill Russell.

[Joe Vancil]

Reality,

What are you smoking?

Mo Malone joined the Sixers.  Results
83 Glorious title, a 4-0 skunkin exposing the psuedo dynasty Lakers.
84 Worked by Bob Parish and company.
85  ditto
86  ditto

84 - Philadelphia eliminated by New Jersey in the First Round (big story at the time)
86 - Philadelphia eliminated by Milwaukee in the Conference Semis (Bobby Jones' final season)

Wow wasn't allowed to stay up late enough in 1984 to watch Bob work Kareem for the Championship.  1986 Wows curfew was extended by the *greatest center of all time* couldn't muster up even a West Conf Finals.

In 1986, Houston eliminated LA in...the Western Conference Finals.

Kream in the wimpiest West Conference of all time only managed to get past an injury riddled Celt team in 85.

Beat them in 1987, too.


Let me guess...history *ISN'T* a passion of yours....


                                                                   

[Joe Vancil]

And it's Rick's turn again.  Speaking of Moses Malone:

He had won championships in Houston and Phila.

In Houston?  Would that be with the 1994 team, or the 1995 team?  Those are the only two Houston teams to win the championship.

[rickortreat]

And it's Rick's turn again.  Speaking of Moses Malone:

He had won championships in Houston and Phila.

In Houston?  Would that be with the 1994 team, or the 1995 team?  Those are the only two Houston teams to win the championship.

Doh!  I don't know why I thought he had more rings.  I was clearly mistaken.  Thanks Joe.

[westkoast]

Speaking of Bill Russell...

Has anyone got a chance to see Samuel Jackson and Bill Russell on Iconoclasts

http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500060052

Comes on again Sept 7th on Sundance channel.

The humbleness of a man so great in his field blows my mind.  This is a must watch for everyone on the board.

[westkoast]

Reality,

What are you smoking?

Mo Malone joined the Sixers.  Results
83 Glorious title, a 4-0 skunkin exposing the psuedo dynasty Lakers.
84 Worked by Bob Parish and company.
85  ditto
86  ditto

84 - Philadelphia eliminated by New Jersey in the First Round (big story at the time)
86 - Philadelphia eliminated by Milwaukee in the Conference Semis (Bobby Jones' final season)

Wow wasn't allowed to stay up late enough in 1984 to watch Bob work Kareem for the Championship.  1986 Wows curfew was extended by the *greatest center of all time* couldn't muster up even a West Conf Finals.

In 1986, Houston eliminated LA in...the Western Conference Finals.

Kream in the wimpiest West Conference of all time only managed to get past an injury riddled Celt team in 85.

Beat them in 1987, too.


Let me guess...history *ISN'T* a passion of yours....


                                                                   

So the Lakers get negative points for getting past an injury riddled Celt team in 85 but no mention of the Celts getting beat up by a rookie moving to a position other then his natural one  in the finals when the best player in the league was out with an injury?

*opens up a bottle of hatorade grape flavor for Reality*

[Joe Vancil]

*sigh*

Your turn, 'koast.

So the Lakers get negative points for getting past an injury riddled Celt team in 85 but no mention of the Celts getting beat up by a rookie moving to a position other then his natural one  in the finals when the best player in the league was out with an injury?

Nope.  No mention of it at all...since it never happened.

In fact, I can't ever remember a big game by a rookie moving to a different position than his natural one in the Finals when the best player in the league was out with an injury except for the one when Magic Johnson filled in at center for Kareem for the 1980 Lakers against Philadelphia.

[Skandery]

 
. . . that stings




Three people in one thread . . . . you're mean, Joe!