Author Topic: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.  (Read 5260 times)

Offline westkoast

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2007, 06:05:01 PM »
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My point being is that the players around Nash are pretty talented and can play well even if Nash is not in.

Phoenix record in 2003-2004 season, roster included Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, and Leandro Barbosa, their coach was Mike D'Antoni (year before Nash):

Record: 29-54

Since Steve Nash signed with Phoenix in Summer of 2004 (spanning 04-05, 05-06, and 06-07 seasons):

Record without Nash:  4-12




The players around Nash are talented but I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you and submit that it matters a GREAT DEAL if Nash is not in. 



Don't you think that stat is a little skewed Skand?  If one was to look at just that they would be like  :o :o :o   However, that was the same season they started off slow so they shipped their two main stars (marbury, hardaway) away for a bunch of fodder from the Knicks.  The year before that they were a solid team and only lost to a very talented Spurs team in the playoffs (I believe the Suns pushed them to a long series too but too lazy to look it up to be sure)

This team since Nash has shown up has improved.  Amare, Marion, Barbosa and the likes have improved a great deal since that season you mentioned.  That was Amare's rookie season and he wasn't even considered one of the best rookies that year.  They all have improved their games since then.  That of course can be attributed to Nash giving them more confidence and them working harder at their game.  I don't think if Nash wasn't in they would be the same team, I just don't feel the rest of the team is worthless if he is not around.

While I love watching Nash play I just don't see how he would end up with the likes of 3 time MVP players like Magic and Bird without winning anything but the pacific division title.  When Nash left Dallas they did not tumble down to the ground because they had another good player.  I feel like if Nash left Phoenix they could still find someone to compliment Amare.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 06:29:26 PM by westkoast »
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2007, 08:29:12 AM »
Totally disagree about Amare's rookie season, he was a star from day one and I completely agree that Nash makes those guys look like superstars.  While Marion/Amare/Barbosa would still be stars no way they are as productive without Nash setting them up for easy shots.

The MVP is not about the playoffs, Nash deserves the MVP again this year, doubt that he'll get it but I'd vote for him before I'd vote for Kobe or Dirk.
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2007, 09:01:01 AM »
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However, that was the same season they started off slow so they shipped their two main stars (marbury, hardaway) away for a bunch of fodder from the Knicks.  The year before that they were a solid team and only lost to a very talented Spurs team in the playoffs (I believe the Suns pushed them to a long series too but too lazy to look it up to be sure)

Marbury played 37 games and Hardaway played 34 games in 2003-04 before they were shipped to New York that year and Phoenix did start a horrendous 13-24 (.351) record.  After they recieved New York "fodder" they posted a 16-29 (.355) record.  So seeing as how the win percentage is nearly identical, doesn't seem like Phoenix really missed their "stars".  Seems to me they played about half a season and realized Marbury wasn't the future, so they decided to place themselves in good financial position for upcoming free agency and weren't any worst for it the rest of the year.  The year before, they did manage to win 44 games (of course D'Antoni wasn't the coach, it was Frank Johnson) and lost to San An in the 1st round in 6 games.  One of those wins was Game 1 in San An because of a top of the key, last second prayer 3-pointer by Marbury that happened to bank in!  I think Phoenix realized that was about as far as Frankie could take them which is why they hired D'Antoni in the first place even though they were what you call a "solid" team.  It took D'Antoni about, oh, 37 games to realize Marbury wasn't his point guard and the rest is history.  And really, westkoast, did you honestly call Anfernee Hardaway a "star" for Phoenix, was his 8 point, 3 rebound, 3 assist statline that impressive for you.  

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This team since Nash has shown up has improved.  Amare, Marion, Barbosa and the likes have improved a great deal since that season you mentioned.  That was Amare's rookie season and he wasn't even considered one of the best rookies that year.  They all have improved their games since then.  That of course can be attributed to Nash giving them more confidence and them working harder at their game.  I don't think if Nash wasn't in they would be the same team, I just don't feel the rest of the team is worthless if he is not around.

The team has improved since.  Although that 03-04 season wasn't Amare's rookie season, it was his sophomore season.  The other anomaly you have here is that Amare wasn't considered one of the best rookies his rookie season, well that's weird considering he WON Rookie of the Year his rookie season.  Maybe you meant he wasn't considered a good player on that 03-04 season, I guess it takes a lot to impress you if you don't think 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 1.6 blocks is any good.  I guess he sure wasn't the STAR Anfernee Hardaway was for them.  I never called the rest of the team worthless, I think they're a very talented bunch; and that talent is galvanized by Nash's wizardry.  Without Nash they're the 03-04 Portland team (a .500 team) at best -- ALL talent and athleticism, no success.  

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While I love watching Nash play I just don't see how he would end up with the likes of 3 time MVP players like Magic and Bird without winning anything but the pacific division title.

While I thought that Shaquille O'Neal should have won the MVP two years ago in a close race over Nash, and I thought Dirk Nowitzki ran away with the MVP race last year and got completely jobbed, I won't compound those errors by not giving Nash his MVP this year, the year he does deserve it.  I understand the company it would place him in and its understandably vomit-inducing but if the world were up to me, this would be his 1st, not 3rd MVP.        
    
« Last Edit: April 26, 2007, 09:03:14 AM by Skandery »
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Offline WayOutWest

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2007, 09:28:28 AM »
While I thought that Shaquille O'Neal should have won the MVP two years ago in a close race over Nash,

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Mental note: Move Skandypanties to the "Reality/Ricko List" of posters).

and I thought Dirk Nowitzki ran away with the MVP race last year and got completely jobbed,

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaat!!!!  I thought that was his MOST deserving MVP, he lost two LEGITIMATE stars in Amare and JJ and the Suns still kicked arse.  No contest last year.

I won't compound those errors by not giving Nash his MVP this year, the year he does deserve it.  I understand the company it would place him in and its understandably vomit-inducing but if the world were up to me, this would be his 1st, not 3rd MVP.        

This year is his closest competition because Dirk is pretty deserving as was Kobe until the Lakers fell apart.  You need to stop sniffing Joe's post game socks, they are toxic and it's starting to cause brain damage.
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Offline westkoast

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2007, 09:57:20 AM »

Quote
Marbury played 37 games and Hardaway played 34 games in 2003-04 before they were shipped to New York that year and Phoenix did start a horrendous 13-24 (.351) record.  After they recieved New York "fodder" they posted a 16-29 (.355) record.  So seeing as how the win percentage is nearly identical, doesn't seem like Phoenix really missed their "stars".  Seems to me they played about half a season and realized Marbury wasn't the future, so they decided to place themselves in good financial position for upcoming free agency and weren't any worst for it the rest of the year.  The year before, they did manage to win 44 games (of course D'Antoni wasn't the coach, it was Frank Johnson) and lost to San An in the 1st round in 6 games.  One of those wins was Game 1 in San An because of a top of the key, last second prayer 3-pointer by Marbury that happened to bank in!  I think Phoenix realized that was about as far as Frankie could take them which is why they hired D'Antoni in the first place even though they were what you call a "solid" team.  It took D'Antoni about, oh, 37 games to realize Marbury wasn't his point guard and the rest is history.  And really, westkoast, did you honestly call Anfernee Hardaway a "star" for Phoenix, was his 8 point, 3 rebound, 3 assist statline that impressive for you. 

Wasn't there friction between Marbury and D'Antoni right away?  I could have sworn that he (Marbury as usual) had issues as the season started and it spilled over into the court.  Point being that the team you brought up looked alot worse the way you posted it then with all the other information about that season.   At least we seem to agree on one thing, which is D'Antoni reputation really has benefited quite a bit from having Nash.

Hardaway was the #2 scoring option on that team at the time wasn't he?  He had that bad injury that sidelined him for a while and really did him in as a player  but he was one of their better players.  The squad they had the year before got it done.

Quote
The team has improved since.  Although that 03-04 season wasn't Amare's rookie season, it was his sophomore season.  The other anomaly you have here is that Amare wasn't considered one of the best rookies his rookie season, well that's weird considering he WON Rookie of the Year his rookie season.  Maybe you meant he wasn't considered a good player on that 03-04 season, I guess it takes a lot to impress you if you don't think 20 points, 10 rebounds, and 1.6 blocks is any good.  I guess he sure wasn't the STAR Anfernee Hardaway was for them.  I never called the rest of the team worthless, I think they're a very talented bunch; and that talent is galvanized by Nash's wizardry.  Without Nash they're the 03-04 Portland team (a .500 team) at best -- ALL talent and athleticism, no success.   

You are correct I was mistaken what his rookie year was which is why I said he wasn't considered one of the best that year.  I forgot he and Yao Ming battled it out for ROY and it was not the following year in that great draft.

I would hardly call the team the 03-04 Blazers.  That team had issues and Amare is a much better player in the middle then who they had by then.

Quote

While I thought that Shaquille O'Neal should have won the MVP two years ago in a close race over Nash, and I thought Dirk Nowitzki ran away with the MVP race last year and got completely jobbed, I won't compound those errors by not giving Nash his MVP this year, the year he does deserve it.  I understand the company it would place him in and its understandably vomit-inducing but if the world were up to me, this would be his 1st, not 3rd MVP.         
     

Really?  Even after having Wade on his side and everything Wade did that year?  I have to disagree with that.

Case could be made for Dirk but I think he has just as strong of a case this year.  They had a hell of a season with him leading the pack.

To me it seems as if he has been handed the trophy too many times by default.  He is an awesome player and easily one of the most fun to watch as a fan but when I think 3 time NBA MVP I think of someone like Bird, Jordan, or Magic.  He just isn't quite up there with them.

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Offline Rolando Blackman

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Stay down - incoming...
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2007, 12:12:44 PM »
While I thought that Shaquille O'Neal should have won the MVP two years ago in a close race over Nash,

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Mental note: Move Skandypanties to the "Reality/Ricko List" of posters).
   
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Offline Reality

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Re: Stay down - incoming...
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 12:18:11 PM »
   
Careful now, WoW...you're treading on hallowed ground, here.
   
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thank you RB.

Offline Skandery

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 12:47:01 PM »
WOW

Quote
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Mental note: Move Skandypanties to the "Reality/Ricko List" of posters).

What I still can't believe is that they let you Mexicans have computers!  8)

wk

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Wasn't there friction between Marbury and D'Antoni right away?  I could have sworn that he (Marbury as usual) had issues as the season started and it spilled over into the court.

Its Marbury, so more than likely, yeah, a bit...but I don't remember it being anything like what Marbury and Larry Brown were like or even Marbury and Isiah early on this past season.  

Quote
Hardaway was the #2 scoring option on that team at the time wasn't he?  He had that bad injury that sidelined him for a while and really did him in as a player  but he was one of their better players.  


Actually Hardaway didn't start (in 24 of 34 games) and was their #5 scoring option in the small ball lineup.  He might of moved up to #4 option if he was spelling JJ or Marion.  Their main Starters were:

Marbury (42 min)
Joe Johnson (41 min)
Shawn Marion (41 min)
Amare Stoudemire (38 min)
Jake Voskuhl (25 min)

Hardaway (26 min) was probably the first guy off the bench, him or Antonio McDyess (21 min).  Also 03-04 happened to be one of Hardaway's healthier years (76 games played)

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I would hardly call the team the 03-04 Blazers.

It sounds ludicrous but its closer than you think.  Comparing 03-04 Blazers to this year's Suns.  

Amare (20/10)  ---------------->> Randolph (20/10)
Marion (17/10) ---------------->> R. Wallace (17/6)
Bell (15/3)   ------------------->> Anderson (14/4a)
Barbosa (18/4a) --------------->> McInnis (12/5a)
Nash (19/12a) ----------------->> Stoudemire (13/6a)

Of course that Portland was in upheaval and McInnis became Darius Miles, while 'Sheed became Abdur-Rahim and Theo Ratliff.  

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Really?  Even after having Wade on his side and everything Wade did that year?  I have to disagree with that.

Wade was tremendous, but Shaq made that team what they were.  23/10/2 for 73 games while setting a career high in FG%.  Damon Jones, Rasual Butler, and Keyon Dooling owe Shaq every penny of the contracts each of them recieved that summer as they set career highs in points, FG%, and 3pt%.  Wade is Wade, but Shaq made that Miami team for that season.

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Case could be made for Dirk but I think he has just as strong of a case this year.

Not only did Dallas win 60 games, Dirk set career highs in FG%, 3%, FT%, and points.  He accounted for 27% of Dallas' offense.  And as far as the intangibles go, I believe he was more aggressive and better in the clutch last year.

This year, Dallas won 67 games.  Dirk set new career highs in all those percentages but regressed in points, he only accounted for 24.6%.  To me it seemed he wasn't as aggressive, wasn't as deadly in the clutch, and the emergence of Howard into an true star knocks him down a few pegs.  Nash willing Phoenix to win that last reg. season game while Dirk did nothing but watch also swayed my vote.    
 
Quote
To me it seems as if he has been handed the trophy too many times by default.  He is an awesome player and easily one of the most fun to watch as a fan but when I think 3 time NBA MVP I think of someone like Bird, Jordan, or Magic.  He just isn't quite up there with them.

He definitely isn't...
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Offline Skandery

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 12:49:32 PM »
by the way, jn, I'm sorry for hijacking you're thread...


...my heartfelt congratulations to Sam Mitchell, its good to see a guy who always gets the raw deal come out ahead. 

I just wish it wasn't at the expense of another guy who seems to always get the raw deal.

Good Job Sam Mitchell, Colangelo will have a tough time justifying letting him go, now.   
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Offline jn

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 02:45:23 PM »
Hey Skandery, the thread didn't get hijacked into a Kobe/Laker pissing match so no problem.  ;)

Another interesting point to make about this is what this award says about patience with a coach.  Mitchell had a dreadful record his first two years but wasn't quickly given the axe like so many coaches.  Who knows? Maybe this award is the reason the Hawks are giving Mike Woodson another year.
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Offline Reality

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2007, 03:38:32 PM »
I am not here to rain on your Mitchell COY thread jn.
That being said, your reaction to end of Gm 1.
Specifially, after Toronto battle back to 92-88 with the ball 45 seconds.
Tossed it into Bosh who had looked great the last few possession.
Instead of catching the pass and immediately going to the hoop with his strong hand, he Tim Duncaned it.
Held the ball for 5 seconds, then rotated towards the corner.  I hate it when big men do that.
Gives the D all kinds of time to set up, also gives the O almost nil chance for O rebound.

You were what blood alchohol level at that point and/or do you have a game tape?

Offline Skandery

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2007, 09:28:05 AM »
What a fickle world we live in. 

===============================================================================
The rap on Sam Mitchell
 
By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
April 30, 2007


EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Privately, this is what advance scouts who have watched Sam Mitchell for three seasons were curious to see. They saw him with Bryan Colangelo's resurrected roster, and a depleted Atlantic Division, and thought it would be most intriguing to see what happened with the Toronto Raptors coach in the playoffs, when he had to make adjustments and counters under the scrutiny of a seven-game series.

As postseason failures go, Mitchell's has been spectacular so far. What had been merely a troubling Eastern Conference series turned traumatic on Sunday night, a 102-81 Game 5 loss to the New Jersey Nets that was a 30-point game until Jason Kidd and Vince Carter left the Meadowlands court for good. The Nets have taken away everything – Chris Bosh in the post, T.J. Ford on the drive and, maybe most of all, the will of the Atlantic champions.

They go back to Toronto for Game 5 on Tuesday with so much riding for this franchise, a season that was such a renaissance for the Raptors turning into a referendum on Mitchell. Whatever leverage Mitchell gained with a franchise-record 47 victories and the Red Auerbach trophy largely has been lost in the avalanche of this three-games-to-one deficit to sixth-seeded New Jersey.

The Nets have neutralized Bosh, flooding the All-Star in the post and using Kidd to cheat on him because the New Jersey point guard has refused to respect Ford's jumper. Mitchell needs to get Bosh the ball where he can do damage. What's more, the Nets are forever adjusting to Toronto's changing defenses, constantly getting uncontested shots in this series. Kidd and Vince Carter are playing out of their minds, but that's partly because Mitchell's team looks intimidated and unwilling to challenge New Jersey.
 
There's a lot on the line for Mitchell here. Several league sources insist that he's the top choice of Pacers president Donnie Walsh to replace Rick Carlisle in Indiana, and maybe that's still the case considering that the Pacers are looking like a rebuilding project. For now, they don't need Mitchell to be a playoff coach there. Nevertheless, the rapidly developing Raptors do, and Colangelo, Toronto's president and general manager, must consider how much he wants to commit contractually to Mitchell at season's end.

Before Game 4, Colangelo, easily the Executive of the Year in the NBA, insisted that the entire body of work – regular season and playoffs – would be the judge for Mitchell's offer. He wants Mitchell back, he said. He deserves to be rewarded with a new contract. Nevertheless, Colangelo told Yahoo! Sports that there won't be a long negotiation process with Mitchell.

"I'm going to try and get to a decision fairly quickly," Colangelo said. "It's nothing that I want to linger. June 30 is the official end of the contract, and I'm going to want to know which way we're going."

Considering that Suns assistant Marc Iavaroni, who was part of the contender that Colangelo constructed in Phoenix, will be one of the most coveted candidates on the market, it's hard to believe that Colangelo will let him go elsewhere should negotiations stall with Mitchell. Around the league, there's a belief that Colangelo will low-ball Mitchell, dare him to leave and bring in his own guy.

Colangelo bristles at the suggestion, saying, "He's the leader of the team, and that's what makes us encouraged about where we are."

Yet, make no mistake: How Mitchell handles the next 48 hours will be a telling window into that leadership. After getting blown out in Games 3 and 4 at the Meadowlands, he walked into the losing locker room Sunday night and refused to rip into his team. Perhaps the old Mitchell would've gone off the deep end, yelling and screaming, but Mitchell has matured as a coach. He decided that he would try to build them up again, show his players that he still believed in them at a time perhaps no one else does.

Nevertheless, this was no time for him to walk into his press conference and start telling people that no one thought Toronto would be here after a 2-8 start to the season, and blah, blah, blah. This was a misdirection play that carried little weight in this series because his team hasn't showed up.

"I explained to them that we won 47 games, we won the Atlantic Division and we've earned the right to be in the playoffs," Mitchell said. "We can't let one bad night take away all that we've done."

Here's the deal: The Raptors are here, and they shouldn't be so completely non-competitive. As much as anything, this all sounded like a concession speech for the end of a series. No one is terribly surprised that the Nets, with Kidd (17 points, eight rebounds, 13 assists) Carter (27 points, seven assists) and Richard Jefferson (23 points), are winning the series. Toronto is still young, still growing, but it is the third seed in the East. Everyone is surprised to see such little resistance, to watch the Raptors let the Nets do whatever they please on the floor without so much as the appearance of making a stand.

Kidd is killing these Raptors, and Mitchell must take his share of the blame. Why in the world did he decide to question the validity of Kidd's banged-up left knee? This was Mitchell thinking like a player, not a coach. As most of the great ones do, Kidd lives for slights, real and imagined. Mitchell should've just said that whether Kidd was injured or not he knew they would get the best of the Nets' star. That's all.

"To say I'm faking, that didn't bother me," Kidd said. Only no one in the Nets organization believed Kidd on that one. They know how Kidd thinks, how he finds his edge, and he understood this was the wrong play, way wrong, by Mitchell. "He did us a favor," one Nets official said. "What was he thinking?"

For his own good, Mitchell could use a tough, final stand out of his team in Game 5. Right now, he's getting run out of the series. Whatever people thought of his X's and O's, Mitchell always has been able to get his team to play hard for him. Now, the Raptors look lost. They look rattled. He changed his lineup for Game 4, starting Andrea Bargnani, and promised to try something else for Game 5. He's reaching now. He's a little desperate. As it turns out, Sam Mitchell hasn't completely escaped his referendum season in Toronto.

Perhaps he's coaching for the Pacers job, perhaps for a longer, richer extension with the Raptors – whatever. Through it all, Mitchell could go a long way toward validating his Coach of the Year trophy with a simple solution on Tuesday night: Just raise these Raptors out of the rubble again, just get them back to Jersey for a Game 6.

This is a freefall for Mitchell and the Raptors, and a freefall doesn't leave historic franchise seasons with tidy bows and ribbons. They've come too far, too fast this year, to go down in this kind of heap. The coach is on the clock for Game 5.

 
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."

Offline Joe Vancil

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Re: Props to Sam Mitchell, COY.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2007, 10:23:09 AM »
Mitchell needs to go.  He's a mediocre coach at best, and there are better ones out there for the taking.

Skander's guy (Adelman) wouldn't be bad for this franchise.

Adelman, Carlisle, and Larry Brown are the big names to be had out there.  If Toronto wants to really compete, they need to get one of these guys.

Rumor is that Paul Silas is talking with the Bobcats.  That's not a bad fit.
Joe

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