Are the Lakers better than the Spurs?

[Randy]

Who said Manu isn't a good player -- I just wouldn't agree that he's a GREAT player -- there aren't that many great players in the game today and while Manu plays with one of them, Manu just isn't among them. 

I think this is where Pop's weakness shines through -- he gets very stagnant in his coaching and it often shows in his lack of creativity in substitutions.  While he isn't as rigid as JVG, he still tends to stick with his pattern of substitutions.  SA has three quality SG's -- Barry, Finley and Manu and Pop has a tendency to stick with one regardless of how poor they are playing (or how good another is playing).  Also, Manu is a shooting guard -- not a SF, koast.

[Skandery]

WayOutWest:

was with you right up to there, he's a 3rd tier player, 2nd tier SG at best, that makes him good, not great.

First of all:  good? great? we're arguing semantics. 

I would also disagree with a 3rd tier ranking depending on the kind of players you have in the 1st and 2nd tier. 

Me personally, 1st tier guys are defined as the primary basketball players for a franchise.  If there is a guy on your team taking up 30% of your cap space, he probably falls into this category.  Examples:

Nash
Nowitzki
Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Arenas
Ray Allen
Iverson
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming
Carmelo

Now of course their are exceptions such as LeBron and Wade being on their rookie contracts (underpaid) last year, Nash (a little guy in a big guy's game) or overpaid sclubs like Stephon Marbury, Chris Webber, Zach Randolph, Kenyon Martin who are not 1st tier by ANYONE's imagination.  The absolute cream of the crop, year-in, year-out MVP candidates are going to come from this list.     

2nd tier guys are generally a teams second best player, very well compensated but don't draw the max, and if they happen to be the best player on their team by a good margin, that team will have a VERY poor record.  Examples:

Zach Randolph
Baron Davis
Antawn Jamison
Larry Hughes
Ben Wallace
Rashard Lewis
Rasheed Wallace
Emeka Okafor
Rip Hamilton
Andrei Kirilenko
Lamar Odom
Vince Carter
Tracy McGrady
Manu Ginobili

Exceptions are if you happen to string a bunch of these guys together who all play different positions, you've become the Detroit Pistons (a great team).  If you've paid one of these guys like a 1st tier player, you've become the Portland Trailblazers, and if you've paid MORE than one of these guys like a 1st tier player, you've become the New York Knicks.

3rd tier players are solid players, starters every single year, and if they happen to have a really good year, they might be considered for an All-Star game, maybe.

Tayshaun Prince
Udonis Haslem
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Brad Miller
Troy Murphy
Ricky Davis
Shane Battier
Caron Butler
Richard Jefferson
Wally Szserbiak
Mike Miller
Boris Diaw
Cuttino Mobley

If one of these guys is your best player, you're the Memphis Grizzlies. 

I think San An has one 1st tier player and two 2nd tier players.  Duncan's production sometimes looks like its 2nd tier and Manu sometimes looks like he's 3rd tier but that's because Pop uses a 10 man (sometimes 11 man) rotation.  That means less minutes for everybody, less opportunities to put up gawdy numbers.  Obviously everybody will disagree on where I put players and some players do ride the fence between the tiers.  But honestly, I've never seen a late game, have to win, clutch situation for San Antonio and not the seen the ball either in Duncan or Ginobili's hand--every time for the last 3 years. 

Now, WayOutWest, if you consider 1st tier as only those 5 or 6 guys who win all the MVPs, they yeah Ginobili would be 3rd tier.

[westkoast]

Who said Manu isn't a good player -- I just wouldn't agree that he's a GREAT player -- there aren't that many great players in the game today and while Manu plays with one of them, Manu just isn't among them. 

I think this is where Pop's weakness shines through -- he gets very stagnant in his coaching and it often shows in his lack of creativity in substitutions.  While he isn't as rigid as JVG, he still tends to stick with his pattern of substitutions.  SA has three quality SG's -- Barry, Finley and Manu and Pop has a tendency to stick with one regardless of how poor they are playing (or how good another is playing).  Also, Manu is a shooting guard -- not a SF, koast.

I stand corrected but that doesn't change the fact that any team would love to have them on their squad.  Also, Manu has played the 3 before and I've seen him guard 3s before.  Now that I think of it I could of sworn he was playing the 3 when he came off the bench in the Lakers game on Sunday.  Luke and Odom took turns guarding him on the wing.

[Joe Vancil]

Manu sometimes does guard 3's on the defensive side of the ball;  that occurs when Bruce Bowen is guarding a 2 (or a 1).  For example, Manu guarded Tayshaun Prince in the 2005 Finals when Bowen was guarding Billups.  I would imagine that he guarded Walton while Bowen was guarding Kobe.

Offensively, Manu never plays the 3.

[Lurker]

Manu sometimes does guard 3's on the defensive side of the ball;  that occurs when Bruce Bowen is guarding a 2 (or a 1).  For example, Manu guarded Tayshaun Prince in the 2005 Finals when Bowen was guarding Billups.  I would imagine that he guarded Walton while Bowen was guarding Kobe.

Offensively, Manu never plays the 3.

Joe hit it on the head.  Same thing happens against the Rockets (TMac), Heat (Wade), Sonics (Allen), Wizards (Arenas - PG but then Parker slides to defending the SG).  Bowen guards the best offensive swing man and Manu guards the other position.  But Manu plays the SG position 90-95% of the time on offense.  The other 5-10% he runs the PG spot.

[WayOutWest]

First of all:  good? great? we're arguing semantics.

 

No we are not, if you are in the habit of calling a "good" player "great" then I will need to read your posts with a different view.  Kobe is great, Manu is good.  Duncan is great, Boozer is good.  Etc...

I would also disagree with a 3rd tier ranking depending on the kind of players you have in the 1st and 2nd tier. 

Using the guys you listed, plus a few of my own:

1st Tier (The elite franchise players):
Nowitzki
Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Nash (This name amazes me in that it's vaulted up there this late in his career)
Greg Oden (oops, jumped the gun)

2nd Tier (Elite but not quite franchise or ex-franchise player because of age or injury):
Brand
Shaq
Shawn Marion
Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Iverson
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming
Carmelo
Andrei Kirilenko
Vince Carter
Tracy McGrady
Emeka Okafor
Baron Davis
Amare
Magette

3rd Tier (Good players, legit 2nd scoring options or up and comming 1st options or 1st options by circumstance, I wouldn't even entertain the thought of putting my franchise in the hands of any of these guys at this time, these guys will occassionally make the all-star team):
Boozer
Joe Johnson
Arenas
Zach Randolph
Antwan Jamison
Larry Hughes
Ben Wallace
Rashard Lewis
Rip Hamilton
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Tayshaun Prince
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Cuttino Mobley
Ron Artest
Mike Bibby

Role Player (Solid guys, solid starters):
Bruce Bowen
Robert Horry
Luke Walton
Udonis Haslem
Brad Miller
Troy Murphy
Ricky Davis
Shane Battier
Rasheed Wallace
Caron Butler
Richard Jefferson
Wally Szserbiak
Mike Miller
Boris Diaw
TONS MORE HERE

The Rest (Guys that can play but really shouldn't be starters in the NBA, good bench guys):
Smush Parker
Elson
New York Knicks
Dalembert
Kwame Brown
DAM, TWO LAKERS!!!!!

[Reality]

2nd Tier (Elite but not quite franchise or ex-franchise player because of age or injury):
Magette 

Is this a typo?

[Skandery]

Me:

Now, WayOutWest, if you consider 1st tier as only those 5 or 6 guys who win all the MVPs, they yeah Ginobili would be 3rd tier.

You:

Using the guys you listed, plus a few of my own:

1st Tier (The elite franchise players):
Nowitzki
Duncan
Garnett
Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Nash (This name amazes me in that it's vaulted up there this late in his career)
Greg Oden (oops, jumped the gun)

I think we're in agreement.  That list is the short list of NBA MVP candidates every single year.  In which case, yeah, Manu is 3rd tier.

Kobe is great, Manu is good
Duncan is great, Boozer is good

In essence you're comparing Manu Ginobili to Carlos Boozer.  Cool, we're in total agreement, I'd say that's a fair (if not slightly generous) assessment of Manu.   

[WayOutWest]

2nd Tier (Elite but not quite franchise or ex-franchise player because of age or injury):
Magette 

Is this a typo?

Yes.