Are the Lakers better than the Spurs?

[Randy]

LOS ANGELES -- No more wondering and doubting. No more pointing to the soft early-season schedule. No more poking holes and poking fun.
You can write it down: The Lakers can play. The Lakers are good.

And more than that, the Lakers are tough.

You heard right. Not slick, not pretty. Tough.

No less a stalwart than Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said so after his boys, who don't ever get pushed around, were manhandled in a 106-99 Los Angeles win Sunday night. "Their pressure really got us on our heels," he said. "We absolutely folded under their pressure."

Down 48-46 at halftime, the Lakers might have been the ones who folded, might have been the ones who figured they couldn't hang with a San Antonio team that seems capable, night in and night out, of doing anything and everything it takes to win. But instead, Los Angeles dialed it up, on both ends of the floor.

The third-quarter offensive numbers were impressive: 37 points, nine assists, three 3s, and 62.5 percent field goal shooting. But it was the Lakers' defense, scrapping, slapping, and fighting, that made those numbers possible. They contested even the most perfunctory entry passes and gimme shots.

Smush Parker grabbed a Tony Parker lob almost before it left his hand and before you know it the ball is headed the other way for a Luke Walton 3-point play. Walton stripped Bruce Bowen in the lane and Lamar Odom picked up the loose ball and fired ahead to Kobe Bryant for a right-hand jam. Bryant stole a back-cut pass intended for Beno Udrih and ran down the floor and flicked it to Parker in the corner, who found Odom at the top of the key for an easy-as-you please 3-pointer.

And so it went, stop after stop, transition bucket after transition bucket, and gut-check after gut-check; a 22-3 smackdown to go up 83-70 (a lead they would never relinquish) by the end of the third quarter.

"To beat a team like San Antonio it has to come from the defense for us," Walton said afterward. "We have guys who want to win and guys who want to play defense to make it happen."

Notice he said "guys," plural.

Kobe was his superstar self, coming up 34-point big (on a bum ankle and 13-25 shooting, including 4-for-5 from beyond the arc), and the crowd loved him for it, chanting "MVP! MVP!" as the game clock wound down in the fourth, but the Staples Center faithful reached a fever pitch in the third, loving every rough-hewn minute of the Lakers' defensive clinic, feeding off the collective intensity the players brought to each possession. The fans sensed they were seeing something, some kind of promise they can count on down the road, some new thing that doesn't just begin and end with Number 24.

All five Lakers starters were in double figures. Odom pulled down eleven boards. Kwame Brown blocked two, grabbed five, and dished out three. Walton was 7-for-15 and was aggressive going for loose balls and open looks alike. Everybody got some. Everybody sold out. Everybody pushed.

"Everyone had each other's backs tonight," Walton said, still grinning from the feeling of it. "I knew it was in this team." In this team to be a team. In this team to D up. In this team to band together and put a very good team down. Decisively.

"This did a lot for our confidence," Brown said, moments after a crowd of reporters left his locker Sunday night. "We're taking pride as a team and in playing as a team. We know this is Kobe's team, but guys like me and Luke, we have to step up, and take pressure off of him if we're going to go far."

It's too early to say how far they'll go, but it's not too early to say they look right now like a legitimate playoff club, with a capital T in Team. Last year they were Bryant and a bunch of backup singers, but this year's show is something else again, something more complete, and something tougher to beat.

"They are much improved over last year on a variety of levels and they are just going to keep getting better," Popovich said.

There will be nights when Kobe carries this team by himself. There will be nights Lamar presses instead of letting the offense come to him as he did Sunday (he finished just one assist shy of a triple-double). There will be nights Andrew Bynum (3-for-4 from the field and one big tone-setting block of Tim Duncan) plays more timidly than he did against the Spurs. And there will be nights the reserves (who Phil Jackson called "inspirational" in his postgame press conference) struggle to make a difference.

But this defense, this growing possibility that it will define them (Staples was rocking with the call of "Dee-fense! Dee-fense!" throughout much of the second half Sunday), will, if they stay tough and true to it, carry them a long way, farther than we guessed at the beginning of the season.

It carries them now to Texas, to games with Houston and Dallas.

Talk about tough.

"We're going to see what we're made of," Brown said with a little smile Sunday, like they were eager for the chance to man-up.

[WayOutWest]

Uhmmm....NO.

DANG!!! Missed the game, was busy running around Home Depot till 9:58 p.m.!!!

Did Flabs dominate?

Did TD finally see the light and set up from beyond the arc?

Did Manu get a sniff of Kobe's jock?

[westkoast]

Better then the Spurs? For one night yes.  Overall? No.  Why?  Lakers cannot play the kind of defense they played in the 3rd on a more consistant basis.  The Spurs play good defense every night.

Did Flabs dominate?  See the Flabs vs Bynum battle thread.  Bynum played much better then Fabs.  Had a nice clean block on Duncan.  Flabs had a heck of a screen on Tony Parker to allow Smush a layup in the first minute of the game, which followed by an imediate bench from Pop.

Sorry Spurs fans, I just am tired of Manu.  Heck of a player.  He can score, pass, and play some solid team defense.  Perfect player to fill the role at that position.    I just cannot deal with the gumby-like acting when someone so much as stands near him.  Honestly, it was a little excessive last night.

[Lurker]

LOS ANGELES -- No more wondering and doubting. No more pointing to the soft early-season schedule. No more poking holes and poking fun.
You can write it down: The Lakers can play. The Lakers are good.

But it was the Lakers' defense, scrapping, slapping, and fighting, that made those numbers possible.

Sounds like the definition of personal fouls...I guess the refs forgot to unpack their whistles last night.  Only explanation for why the Lakers won.   







BTW I was impressed with the energy the Lakers brought to the floor in the 3rd quarter.  Good win guys.

[Skandery]

Did Manu get a sniff of Kobe's jock?

No, actually, he up and disappeared again last night. 

Editors Note:  I will begin using italics when using the word disappear and any conjugative forms in the proper Randese.  It may sound like English but I assure you it will have a completely different meaning.

v. Lakers

23 minutes
6/10 FG
4/5  three
7/7  FT
23 points
3 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals

Of course it wasn't the COMPLETE disappearing act he pulled against the Clippers.

19 minutes
8/11 FG
4/6  three
2/2  FT
22 points
6 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals
1 block

If the Spurs other 2/3rds of the triumvirate had disappeared like Manu from the free throw line, SA would have forced OT against the Lake show. 

       

[Randy]

Did Manu get a sniff of Kobe's jock?

No, actually, he up and disappeared again last night. 

Editors Note:  I will begin using italics when using the word disappear and any conjugative forms in the proper Randese.  It may sound like English but I assure you it will have a completely different meaning.

v. Lakers

23 minutes
6/10 FG
4/5  three
7/7  FT
23 points
3 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals

Of course it wasn't the COMPLETE disappearing act he pulled against the Clippers.

19 minutes
8/11 FG
4/6  three
2/2  FT
22 points
6 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals
1 block

If the Spurs other 2/3rds of the triumvirate had disappeared like Manu from the free throw line, SA would have forced OT against the Lake show.    

Well, if we all went to Skander's school of stat posting, we could make ANYONE (hmm, I guess I should have put that in italics) look better, huh?  Instead of 3 rebounds, why not just change it to 6 -- heck, let's spell it out in caps and italics -- SIX rebounds.  It's sounds a lot better that way -- I think you must have been looking at another category when you posted that stat!  Anyone care to guess which category that Skander decided not to list?  Hmm, could be one that doesn't support Skander's viewpoint -- yep, 6 assists -- one for every rebound -- or 2 for every assist -- or 3 for ever steal!

As for listing games -- want to go tit-for-tat?
  SacTown = 24 min, 4 for 12 fg, 4 reb, and 1 ass
  Chicago = 23 min, 1 for 6 fg, 3 reb, 5 ass, 4 st, 2 to

I'm sure we can go back and forth on this, can't we?

Oh, and Kobe's stats:
    39 minutes
    13-25 fg
    4-5 three
    4-4 ft
    34 points
    3 reb
    1 assist
    3 steals
    4 to's

[Skandery]

Well, if we all went to Skander's school of stat posting, we could make ANYONE (hmm, I guess I should have put that in italics) look better, huh?  Instead of 3 rebounds, why not just change it to 6 -- heck, let's spell it out in caps and italics -- SIX rebounds.  It's sounds a lot better that way -- I think you must have been looking at another category when you posted that stat!  Anyone care to guess which category that Skander decided not to list?  Hmm, could be one that doesn't support Skander's viewpoint -- yep, 6 assists -- one for every rebound -- or 2 for every assist -- or 3 for ever steal!

What are you talking about?  I'm not being cute here, you really lost me...

As for listing games -- want to go tit-for-tat?

Sure

I only put the Laker game stats on because that's what this thread was about.  The Clipper stats were just for fun, hey its an LA team also, so its kind of on topic.

I'm sure we can go back and forth on this, can't we?

Actually I don't think we can.  For every one game you would post, I'd post at least 2, if not 3.

Those were some nice stats for Kobe, now we won't go into the fact that he is the #1 option each and every single game for the Lakers whereas Manu is anywhere from #2 to #4 depending on the day.  We also won't acknowledge the difference in minutes played. 

I'll tell you though looking at the game log, its amazing what Manu does when he plays at least 30 minutes: 16  ppg, 3.8 apg, 6.0 rpg.  How about his per 48 minute stats:  21.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.0 spg.  He also hasn't missed a free throw since November 20 and is converting his 4 free throw attempts at an 89% clip.  Oh yeah, he's also converting a career high 1.5 three pointers a game at a career high 40.6%.  All this paints a larger picture, Randy.  One need not go tit-for-tat to realize Manu has o so FAR from disappeared this season as was repeatedly suggested by you earlier.

Now I know its hard for you to admit when you are mistaken but none of us will hold it against you, Randy.  Now gently repeat after me:  Manu Ginobili is a great basketball player.  Go on, consider it therapeutic.  All together now, buddy:  Manu Ginobili is a great basketball player.  

[Joe Vancil]

You know, it really doesn't matter how good of a player Manu Ginobili is when San An only gives Tim Duncan 9 shots in a game, while Finley takes 10, Parker takes 16, and Ginobili takes 10, all in less minutes.  Heck, BRUCE BOWEN took as many shots as Tim Duncan!

Duncan is going to get favorable calls against Kwame Brown and Andrew Bynum.  Duncan missed 2 shots - 7 for 9 - and one of those was blocked by Bynum!  Give Duncan the ball! 

Caleb and I watched part of the game, and what we saw was too much Duncan facing up, and not enough of him posting up, plus too much of Duncan on the pick-and-roll with Tony Parker being unable to find him.

Parker, Bowen and Ginobili shot well - and the Lakers won.  Duncan shot a god-like percentage, and the Lakers won.

A hint, because the Lakers and pretty much every other team in the league has figured it out, but apparently the Spurs haven't:  if you want to win games, let your team's star do what he does best.  For Duncan, that's post offense.

If I'm Popovich, I'm telling Duncan, "Taking 1 out of every 8 shots we get isn't enough.  Try about one out of every four.  You'll be on the free throw line a lot, and all of their bigs and a few of their littles will be in foul trouble.  And anyone who doesn't focus on getting you the ball is going to be sitting."

Orlando is doing much the same thing with Dwight Howard.  Heck, we blasted Kobe for doing this exact same kind of thing in the 2004 Finals - and Shaq wasn't performing nearly as well as Duncan or Howard!  Why aren't we all over the case of various Spurs and Magic players?

If you have a big man, you use him until the other team figures out how to stop him.  You don't help them stop him by not getting him the ball on the block!

Infuriating.

[WayOutWest]

...Manu Ginobili is a great basketball player...

I was with you right up to there, he's a 3rd tier player, 2nd tier SG at best, that makes him good, not great.

I'm starting to think I'm wasting my time with you knuckleheads.  I'm starting to think you need to stick to Star Trek and Babylon 5 and leave the adult conversations (i.e. basketball and Battlestar Galactica) alone.

[WayOutWest]

Infuriating.

Joe, no offense but you're way off base.  I think it's quite obvious the reason TD wasn't getting the ball was because he was completely confused on offense.  TD had no clue where to set up in the offense.  He's supposed to be 18 feet from the basket not posting up.  Obviously this wisdom has not gotten through TD's THICK cromagnum-like (sic?) skull!

[Reality]

You know, it really doesn't matter how good of a player Manu Ginobili is when San An only gives Tim Duncan 9 shots in a game, while Finley takes 10, Parker takes 16, and Ginobili takes 10, all in less minutes.  Heck, BRUCE BOWEN took as many shots as Tim Duncan!

Infuriating. 

Re Finley after last nights game.
"Sometimes he does worry a little bit too much. But I think when he sees our reaction, it helps him to relax a little bit because we tell him we don't care if he misses shots because he can't control it."  Gregory Popavich.

[Randy]

You know, it really doesn't matter how good of a player Manu Ginobili is when San An only gives Tim Duncan 9 shots in a game, while Finley takes 10, Parker takes 16, and Ginobili takes 10, all in less minutes.  Heck, BRUCE BOWEN took as many shots as Tim Duncan!

Duncan is going to get favorable calls against Kwame Brown and Andrew Bynum.  Duncan missed 2 shots - 7 for 9 - and one of those was blocked by Bynum!  Give Duncan the ball! 

Caleb and I watched part of the game, and what we saw was too much Duncan facing up, and not enough of him posting up, plus too much of Duncan on the pick-and-roll with Tony Parker being unable to find him.

Parker, Bowen and Ginobili shot well - and the Lakers won.  Duncan shot a god-like percentage, and the Lakers won.

A hint, because the Lakers and pretty much every other team in the league has figured it out, but apparently the Spurs haven't:  if you want to win games, let your team's star do what he does best.  For Duncan, that's post offense.

If I'm Popovich, I'm telling Duncan, "Taking 1 out of every 8 shots we get isn't enough.  Try about one out of every four.  You'll be on the free throw line a lot, and all of their bigs and a few of their littles will be in foul trouble.  And anyone who doesn't focus on getting you the ball is going to be sitting."

Orlando is doing much the same thing with Dwight Howard.  Heck, we blasted Kobe for doing this exact same kind of thing in the 2004 Finals - and Shaq wasn't performing nearly as well as Duncan or Howard!  Why aren't we all over the case of various Spurs and Magic players?

If you have a big man, you use him until the other team figures out how to stop him.  You don't help them stop him by not getting him the ball on the block!

Infuriating.

I can't understand how you can say any of this Joe when Manu is shooting 60% from the floor.  Get TD off the floor and let Manu go to work!

[Joe Vancil]

Manu is shooting 60% from the floor in that game, but Duncan's shooting 78%.

You downplay Ginobili's contributions too much, Randy.  The guy is a talented player.  He just happens to be on a team with a MORE talented player, with that more talented player being a post player.  The post player should get the lion's share of the touches - even if that perimeter player is Kobe Bryant.  Oh.  Oops.  Make that Manu Ginobili.  For a moment I thought I was talking about the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

The screwball in the mix is Tony Parker, who, in my opinion, is doing his darnedest to turn a fine sailing ship into a submarine.  He's shooting like he's the primary option, but if the Spurs want to be as good as they can be, he needs to be no higher than number 3 on list, behind Duncan and Ginobili - IN THAT ORDER.  There's something to be said about the intelligence of driving the lane and taking lay-ups when people decide that it's better to give those up than to let Duncan get the ball, but there comes a point in time when any good point guard recognizes that it's time to pass on taking his own shot in order to establish the big guy - even if it isn't quite as good of a shot.  That time should have come about halfway through last season.  And, truth be told, Parker isn't a very good post-entry passer.

The Spurs rise and fall with Duncan - not Ginobili, and not Parker.

[Reality]

Randy have a seat on the couch.
That's it, relax make yourself comfortable.

Now, were you at an autograph signing by Manu GNob?
You were.

And when you worked your way up to 2nd in line, id you know Manu got a call that his wife had a minor accident and was at urgent care?
You did not know that.

So that he had to abruptly leave right as you were next.
You took that as a snub and have had issues with GNob ever since?
I see.
We are making some real progress today.

[westkoast]

Manu is shooting 60% from the floor in that game, but Duncan's shooting 78%.

You downplay Ginobili's contributions too much, Randy.  The guy is a talented player.  He just happens to be on a team with a MORE talented player, with that more talented player being a post player.  The post player should get the lion's share of the touches - even if that perimeter player is Kobe Bryant.  Oh.  Oops.  Make that Manu Ginobili.  For a moment I thought I was talking about the Shaq and Kobe Lakers.

The screwball in the mix is Tony Parker, who, in my opinion, is doing his darnedest to turn a fine sailing ship into a submarine.  He's shooting like he's the primary option, but if the Spurs want to be as good as they can be, he needs to be no higher than number 3 on list, behind Duncan and Ginobili - IN THAT ORDER.  There's something to be said about the intelligence of driving the lane and taking lay-ups when people decide that it's better to give those up than to let Duncan get the ball, but there comes a point in time when any good point guard recognizes that it's time to pass on taking his own shot in order to establish the big guy - even if it isn't quite as good of a shot.  That time should have come about halfway through last season.  And, truth be told, Parker isn't a very good post-entry passer.

The Spurs rise and fall with Duncan - not Ginobili, and not Parker.

Honestly I think you just can't be satisfied when it comes to Parker's game.  What he has been doing has been working pretty well over the last 5-6 seasons.    Now I agree he should not be taking as many jump shots (that is the weakest part of his game)  but his penetration is very important to the other players on the team, including Manu.  Manu gets a good amount of points off drive and kicks.  Not to mention the penetration shifts the defense allowing Manu space to operate.  Bowen and Barry would not be the same three point threats if it wasn't for Parkers penetration.  You can't say he needs to give up layups so Duncan can have more touches because he is being told if you have an opening get to the rim for a high % shot.  The Spurs want high % shots anyway they can get them.  If they are getting them because Marbury can't play defense then they are going to take them.  Parker's job is to get into the paint I think it would be a big mistake to throttle him back just for the sake of Duncan getting 4-5 more touches.  If anyone should be held back from shooting it should be Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Flabs, Robert Horry, Michael Finley, Udonis from shooting jumpers like they normally do.

Manu is a very good player and fills the role on his team perfectly.  He doesn't have the talent Kobe does nor does he have the same role so there is no real reason to compare the two.   Any team would like to have a SF of his caliber to add to their squad.  I don't have any knock except for his floppy play.  He has taken what Vlade Divac advanced to a whole new level where instead of flopping under the rim you go gumby all over the court.