Utah -- are they better than the Spurs?

[Lurker]

It's more interesting when we just watch the games, Skans, Joe & Ziggs have alot moe fun in DORKLAND with a USB cable running out there arse.

I agree that it is a lot more fun to ACTUALLY WATCH games.  But in order to discuss basketball with people WHO DO NOT WATCH GAMES then statistics are the best facts on which to base an argument,  However some people realize after watching a half of game that they know everything about that particular team and facts will never sway them.  Nice try, Skander.

[westkoast]

It's more interesting when we just watch the games, Skans, Joe & Ziggs have alot moe fun in DORKLAND with a USB cable running out there arse.

I agree that it is a lot more fun to ACTUALLY WATCH games. 

It also makes a difference when it comes to knowing exactly what a player did do to help the team.  Stats really do not do all players justice.  Whether it be Manu, Turiaf, AK47, Bruce Bowen, or Avery Johnson.  You can bend stats in any direction but to know how a player is truly benefitting the team when he is on the court can not always be shown in stats.  A player could score 8 points in 28 minutes of play going 4 for 10....but if those 8 points swayed the game in his teams favor they made a huge impact.  A player may not even take more then 3 shots but say they are the guy whos sets up the guy who actually dishes out the assist...that makes a big difference in the long run.

And Kobe is shooting %49 from the field not %44 :laugh:

[WayOutWest]

It's more interesting when we just watch the games, Skans, Joe & Ziggs have alot moe fun in DORKLAND with a USB cable running out there arse.

I agree that it is a lot more fun to ACTUALLY WATCH games.  But in order to discuss basketball with people WHO DO NOT WATCH GAMES then statistics are the best facts on which to base an argument,  However some people realize after watching a half of game that they know everything about that particular team and facts will never sway them.  Nice try, Skander.

I actually don't need an entire half, then again not everyone is up to my level.

So when are we going to see TD running the point guard position and have Parker move over to SG?  Noticed you stayed out of that discussion.

[Skandery]

You can bend stats in any direction but to know how a player is truly benefitting the team when he is on the court can not always be shown in stats.  A player could score 8 points in 28 minutes of play going 4 for 10....but if those 8 points swayed the game in his teams favor they made a huge impact.  A player may not even take more then 3 shots but say they are the guy whos sets up the guy who actually dishes out the assist...that makes a big difference in the long run.

I agree, westkoast, that stats don't tell the "whole" story.  Taking your analogy even further a guy could go 1-17 in the game but his one shot be the three pointer under a second left to win by one.  If I tell you that player is Smush Parker, you say it was a heck of a lucky shot.  If I tell you that player is Kobe Bryant, you say of course he's one of the best clutch players in history.  You would also be right in your assessment based on reputation shaped by milestone performances and garnered through sustained excellence.  

I believe one has to look at statisitics the same way, they only justify or confirm what one already sees in plain sight.  If the stats show you that Manu Ginobili is a great player and you know that everywhere Manu Ginobili has played he has found great success playing an integral part for all his teams, you have to conclude Manu Ginobili is a great player.  He is a great player who is having a good (not great -- shot hasn't come around) year on a great team.  He is not merely roster-fodder, has-been, who has completely disappeared for the Spurs, not statistically, not in real life.      

[Skandery]

So when are we going to see TD running the point guard position and have Parker move over to SG?

When they sign you to play Power Forward, WOW. 

[Randy]

1. Joe Johnson, ATL  79.23 79.23 +0.00 15 41.6 28.3 5.3 4.1 50.6 71.1
2. Michael Redd, MIL  78.40 79.02 -0.62 17 40.8 29.6 3.8 2.1 48.1 84.5
3. Vince Carter, NJ  78.19 78.19 +0.00 16 39.2 27.7 5.9 3.4 48.1 82.0
4. Paul Pierce, BOS  76.50 78.68 -2.18 16 37.8 25.7 7.9 4.0 45.6 76.1
5. Ray Allen, SEA  74.52 74.52 +0.00 18 40.7 25.3 4.1 3.2 43.6 91.7
6. Kobe Bryant, LAL  74.11 74.65 -0.54 15 37.7 26.1 4.6 4.7 48.7 83.8
7. Kevin Martin, SAC  71.31 72.12 -0.81 16 36.5 22.5 4.4 1.8 53.2 89.6
8. Richard Hamilton, DET  68.49 68.49 +0.00 15 36.6 22.1 3.9 3.2 45.2 89.2
9. Tracy McGrady, HOU  65.87 65.87 +0.00 16 35.4 18.0 5.6 6.5 40.5 65.9
10. Raja Bell, PHO  61.40 61.40 +0.00 13 37.6 16.9 2.7 1.8 46.3 86.7
11. Peja Stojakovic, NO  59.06 59.06 +0.00 13 32.7 17.8 4.2 0.8 42.3 81.6
12. Ricky Davis, MIN  58.23 58.23 +0.00 16 34.6 14.5 2.6 4.5 44.9 84.2
13. Cuttino Mobley, LAC  58.19 58.19 +0.00 16 34.3 13.8 3.5 1.9 48.4 74.4
14. Josh Childress, ATL  57.94 57.94 +0.00 7 37.0 13.3 6.4 1.3 56.7 77.8
15. Jamal Crawford, NY  57.82 58.76 -0.94 20 33.3 15.6 2.6 3.4 38.9 81.6
16. Grant Hill, ORL  56.73 57.39 -0.66 17 30.5 14.9 3.5 2.7 52.6 76.6
17. Manu Ginobili, SA  56.71 56.72 -0.01 14 28.4 13.3 4.7 3.8 41.2 86.8

Just an interesting ranking -- I guess Manu is simply a middle of the pack shooting guard! 

[Joe Vancil]

What *IS* that ranking?  Is there a heading row to it?

[Lurker]

1. Joe Johnson, ATL  79.23 79.23 +0.00 15 41.6 28.3 5.3 4.1 50.6 71.1
2. Michael Redd, MIL  78.40 79.02 -0.62 17 40.8 29.6 3.8 2.1 48.1 84.5
3. Vince Carter, NJ  78.19 78.19 +0.00 16 39.2 27.7 5.9 3.4 48.1 82.0
4. Paul Pierce, BOS  76.50 78.68 -2.18 16 37.8 25.7 7.9 4.0 45.6 76.1
5. Ray Allen, SEA  74.52 74.52 +0.00 18 40.7 25.3 4.1 3.2 43.6 91.7
6. Kobe Bryant, LAL  74.11 74.65 -0.54 15 37.7 26.1 4.6 4.7 48.7 83.8
7. Kevin Martin, SAC  71.31 72.12 -0.81 16 36.5 22.5 4.4 1.8 53.2 89.6
8. Richard Hamilton, DET  68.49 68.49 +0.00 15 36.6 22.1 3.9 3.2 45.2 89.2
9. Tracy McGrady, HOU  65.87 65.87 +0.00 16 35.4 18.0 5.6 6.5 40.5 65.9
10. Raja Bell, PHO  61.40 61.40 +0.00 13 37.6 16.9 2.7 1.8 46.3 86.7
11. Peja Stojakovic, NO  59.06 59.06 +0.00 13 32.7 17.8 4.2 0.8 42.3 81.6
12. Ricky Davis, MIN  58.23 58.23 +0.00 16 34.6 14.5 2.6 4.5 44.9 84.2
13. Cuttino Mobley, LAC  58.19 58.19 +0.00 16 34.3 13.8 3.5 1.9 48.4 74.4
14. Josh Childress, ATL  57.94 57.94 +0.00 7 37.0 13.3 6.4 1.3 56.7 77.8
15. Jamal Crawford, NY  57.82 58.76 -0.94 20 33.3 15.6 2.6 3.4 38.9 81.6
16. Grant Hill, ORL  56.73 57.39 -0.66 17 30.5 14.9 3.5 2.7 52.6 76.6
17. Manu Ginobili, SA  56.71 56.72 -0.01 14 28.4 13.3 4.7 3.8 41.2 86.8

Just an interesting ranking -- I guess Manu is simply a middle of the pack shooting guard! 

Until you think about the fact that the top 8-9 on the list are PRIMARY options for their teams and Manu is the THIRD option on his team.  And to throw your own argument back at you...that ranking doesn't account for poor shooting.  In fact it is heavily weighted towards scorers.  Also every one on that list except Manu is averaging over 30 minutes a game.  More minutes = more stats.

Then look closer....Manu has the 4th highest FT%; 6th highest rebound and 5th highest assist on that list.  All while averaging less minutes than the rest.  So I guess maybe he isn't so middle of the pack but one of the better players for PLAYING BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT!

[Lurker]

What *IS* that ranking?  Is there a heading row to it?

Joe, it is from http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba where the NBA writer posts his player rankings.  The columns are: Rating, Last week, change, minutes, points, rebs, assts, FG%, FT%.

A look at the top 15 is interesting....
1. LeBron James, CLE  83.19 83.19 +0.00 17 40.5 27.4 6.7 6.6 46.4 70.5
2. Carmelo Anthony, DEN  81.32 81.32 +0.00 15 37.3 32.2 5.2 4.3 52.4 83.1
3. Allen Iverson, PHI  80.38 80.38 +0.00 14 43.5 31.6 2.9 7.3 41.3 88.3
4. Joe Johnson, ATL  79.23 79.23 +0.00 15 41.6 28.3 5.3 4.1 50.6 71.1
5. Michael Redd, MIL  78.40 79.02 -0.62 17 40.8 29.6 3.8 2.1 48.1 84.5
6. Vince Carter, NJ  78.19 78.19 +0.00 16 39.2 27.7 5.9 3.4 48.1 82.0
7. Dwyane Wade, MIA  77.84 77.84 +0.00 16 40.1 27.3 4.8 8.0 45.1 80.6
8. Kevin Garnett, MIN  77.66 77.66 +0.00 16 38.1 21.1 11.9 3.6 51.0 81.6
9. Carlos Boozer, UTA  77.05 76.39 +0.66 19 35.7 22.7 12.2 3.3 58.9 69.9
10. Paul Pierce, BOS  76.50 78.68 -2.18 16 37.8 25.7 7.9 4.0 45.6 76.1
11. Dirk Nowitzki, DAL  76.20 75.95 +0.25 17 35.6 24.2 9.7 2.9 49.1 92.1
12. Rashard Lewis, SEA  75.45 75.45 +0.00 18 39.9 22.6 6.5 2.1 48.6 87.6
13. Gilbert Arenas, WAS  74.97 73.81 +1.16 17 37.9 26.1 3.9 6.6 40.8 84.6
14. Shawn Marion, PHO  74.75 74.75 +0.00 15 40.3 18.9 9.4 2.1 47.8 82.1
15. Ray Allen, SEA  74.52 74.52 +0.00 18 40.7 25.3 4.1 3.2 43.6 91.7

[Skandery]

I see that its ranked by whatever that first number means, care to give us a clue Randy?

I guess Manu is simply a middle of the pack shooting guard!

That statement is as true as saying Joe Johnson, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen are all much better players than Kobe Bryant.

...try again, Randy.


P.S. Incidentally, I happened to catch most of the second quarter of last night's Spurs 40 point massacre of Golden State.  Ginobili came off the bench with a couple minutes into the 2nd Quarter (he didn't start because he was coming back from injury).  In the ensuing 2 minutes, Manu had 4 assists including two passes to the backline resulting in Elson dunks as the lead went from 12 to 20.

I saw from the boxscore, he ended up with 9 assists in 15 minutes....yeah, he's just useless!

[Skandery]

A look at the top 15 is interesting....

...very interesting, indeed.  Kobe Bryant isn't even a Top 15 player in the NBA!

[WayOutWest]

A look at the top 15 is interesting....

...very interesting, indeed.  Kobe Bryant isn't even a Top 15 player in the NBA!

Ummmm....do I need to point out the obvious?

[Randy]

1. Joe Johnson, ATL  79.23 79.23 +0.00 15 41.6 28.3 5.3 4.1 50.6 71.1
2. Michael Redd, MIL  78.40 79.02 -0.62 17 40.8 29.6 3.8 2.1 48.1 84.5
3. Vince Carter, NJ  78.19 78.19 +0.00 16 39.2 27.7 5.9 3.4 48.1 82.0
4. Paul Pierce, BOS  76.50 78.68 -2.18 16 37.8 25.7 7.9 4.0 45.6 76.1
5. Ray Allen, SEA  74.52 74.52 +0.00 18 40.7 25.3 4.1 3.2 43.6 91.7
6. Kobe Bryant, LAL  74.11 74.65 -0.54 15 37.7 26.1 4.6 4.7 48.7 83.8
7. Kevin Martin, SAC  71.31 72.12 -0.81 16 36.5 22.5 4.4 1.8 53.2 89.6
8. Richard Hamilton, DET  68.49 68.49 +0.00 15 36.6 22.1 3.9 3.2 45.2 89.2
9. Tracy McGrady, HOU  65.87 65.87 +0.00 16 35.4 18.0 5.6 6.5 40.5 65.9
10. Raja Bell, PHO  61.40 61.40 +0.00 13 37.6 16.9 2.7 1.8 46.3 86.7
11. Peja Stojakovic, NO  59.06 59.06 +0.00 13 32.7 17.8 4.2 0.8 42.3 81.6
12. Ricky Davis, MIN  58.23 58.23 +0.00 16 34.6 14.5 2.6 4.5 44.9 84.2
13. Cuttino Mobley, LAC  58.19 58.19 +0.00 16 34.3 13.8 3.5 1.9 48.4 74.4
14. Josh Childress, ATL  57.94 57.94 +0.00 7 37.0 13.3 6.4 1.3 56.7 77.8
15. Jamal Crawford, NY  57.82 58.76 -0.94 20 33.3 15.6 2.6 3.4 38.9 81.6
16. Grant Hill, ORL  56.73 57.39 -0.66 17 30.5 14.9 3.5 2.7 52.6 76.6
17. Manu Ginobili, SA  56.71 56.72 -0.01 14 28.4 13.3 4.7 3.8 41.2 86.8

Just an interesting ranking -- I guess Manu is simply a middle of the pack shooting guard! 

Until you think about the fact that the top 8-9 on the list are PRIMARY options for their teams and Manu is the THIRD option on his team.  And to throw your own argument back at you...that ranking doesn't account for poor shooting.  In fact it is heavily weighted towards scorers.  Also every one on that list except Manu is averaging over 30 minutes a game.  More minutes = more stats.

Then look closer....Manu has the 4th highest FT%; 6th highest rebound and 5th highest assist on that list.  All while averaging less minutes than the rest.  So I guess maybe he isn't so middle of the pack but one of the better players for PLAYING BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT!

Hmm, so why isn't Manu playing more minutes?  A #3 option only playing 28 minutes a game?  
Let's see:  
   Duncan at 35 mpg
   Bowen at 35 mpg
   Parker at 34 mpg
   Manu at 28 mpg
   Barry at 22 mpg
   Oberto at 22 mpg
   Finley at 21 mpg

Don't more #3 scoring options spend more than 28 minutes on the floor?  Hmm . . .

[westkoast]

1. Joe Johnson, ATL  79.23 79.23 +0.00 15 41.6 28.3 5.3 4.1 50.6 71.1
2. Michael Redd, MIL  78.40 79.02 -0.62 17 40.8 29.6 3.8 2.1 48.1 84.5
3. Vince Carter, NJ  78.19 78.19 +0.00 16 39.2 27.7 5.9 3.4 48.1 82.0
4. Paul Pierce, BOS  76.50 78.68 -2.18 16 37.8 25.7 7.9 4.0 45.6 76.1
5. Ray Allen, SEA  74.52 74.52 +0.00 18 40.7 25.3 4.1 3.2 43.6 91.7
6. Kobe Bryant, LAL  74.11 74.65 -0.54 15 37.7 26.1 4.6 4.7 48.7 83.8
7. Kevin Martin, SAC  71.31 72.12 -0.81 16 36.5 22.5 4.4 1.8 53.2 89.6
8. Richard Hamilton, DET  68.49 68.49 +0.00 15 36.6 22.1 3.9 3.2 45.2 89.2
9. Tracy McGrady, HOU  65.87 65.87 +0.00 16 35.4 18.0 5.6 6.5 40.5 65.9
10. Raja Bell, PHO  61.40 61.40 +0.00 13 37.6 16.9 2.7 1.8 46.3 86.7
11. Peja Stojakovic, NO  59.06 59.06 +0.00 13 32.7 17.8 4.2 0.8 42.3 81.6
12. Ricky Davis, MIN  58.23 58.23 +0.00 16 34.6 14.5 2.6 4.5 44.9 84.2
13. Cuttino Mobley, LAC  58.19 58.19 +0.00 16 34.3 13.8 3.5 1.9 48.4 74.4
14. Josh Childress, ATL  57.94 57.94 +0.00 7 37.0 13.3 6.4 1.3 56.7 77.8
15. Jamal Crawford, NY  57.82 58.76 -0.94 20 33.3 15.6 2.6 3.4 38.9 81.6
16. Grant Hill, ORL  56.73 57.39 -0.66 17 30.5 14.9 3.5 2.7 52.6 76.6
17. Manu Ginobili, SA  56.71 56.72 -0.01 14 28.4 13.3 4.7 3.8 41.2 86.8

Just an interesting ranking -- I guess Manu is simply a middle of the pack shooting guard! 

Until you think about the fact that the top 8-9 on the list are PRIMARY options for their teams and Manu is the THIRD option on his team.  And to throw your own argument back at you...that ranking doesn't account for poor shooting.  In fact it is heavily weighted towards scorers.  Also every one on that list except Manu is averaging over 30 minutes a game.  More minutes = more stats.

Then look closer....Manu has the 4th highest FT%; 6th highest rebound and 5th highest assist on that list.  All while averaging less minutes than the rest.  So I guess maybe he isn't so middle of the pack but one of the better players for PLAYING BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT!

Hmm, so why isn't Manu playing more minutes?  A #3 option only playing 28 minutes a game?  
Let's see:  
   Duncan at 35 mpg
   Bowen at 35 mpg
   Parker at 34 mpg
   Manu at 28 mpg
   Barry at 22 mpg
   Oberto at 22 mpg
   Finley at 21 mpg

Don't more #3 scoring options spend more than 28 minutes on the floor?  Hmm . . .

This pains me to say and I don't want to throw fuel on the fire but...

Manu has been hurt for a few weeks now.

[WayOutWest]

This pains me to say and I don't want to throw fuel on the fire but...

Manu has been hurt for a few weeks now.

You yung pups be quite rude!  You need to ask BEFORE you point out the obvious.  AK-47 and Kobe are subpar for the same reason.