Question about Islam

[WayOutWest]

"Recitation of the Qur'an in Islam is equivalent to a statement of 'faith' in Christianity.  Hence, the primary sign of a true Muslim is recitation of the Qur'an."

"Tradition ascribes the following sayings to the Prophet Muhammad, thus serving as a reinforcement to the habit of recitation:
         a. 'If any man recites the Qur'an and memorizes it, God will
            cause him to enter Paradise and will grant him the right to
            intercede successfully for ten people of his household, all
            of whom deserve Hell Fire.'
         b. 'The best man among you is he who learns the Qur'an and
            teaches it.'
         c. 'Learn the Qur'an, recite it and sleep.'
         d. 'The most excellent act of worship is the reciting of the
            Qur'an.'" - ibid.



Are those statements true?

[rickortreat]

Logically this makes no sense.

In the first place, there is no evidence of "Heaven" or "Hell", but if such places do exist and are final destinations for one's spirit, any "eternal judgement" must be based on more than mere rote memorization of any text.  This implies that you can do all sorts of disgusting, immoral acts in the world, but by virtue of your memory, paradise is yours!?!?

It sounds more like a selling point for the religion than an actual fact!  This appears to be a common theme among religions, belive as we do or be condemmned.  As far as I know, only Bhuddism repects the concept of "virtue" as the means to realize Paradise or Enlightenment.

And even there, Bhuddists belive the onus for one's salvation rests with one's own self and one's own awareness and self-discipine, Right thoughts, right feelings and right actions are aspects of the path, so also a recollection of past lives and control over one's sex life.

Hinduism, from which Bhuddism sprang also belives in the path, but belives that attainment of enlightenment takes a journey through many cycles of birth and rebirth, and an accelleration is neither possible nor desireable.

From my perspective, the real truth is hidden.  Unless you know where you came from before you were in this world, there's no way of knowing why you're here or what your purpose is.  

If anything matters it is the truth, and in matters such as this, there is an absence of evidence as to what the true nature of life and existance is, or whether heaven and hell exist.  What is clear though, is that God doesn't prevent evil from occuring in the world, and nor does he pick rulers or leaders based on integrity, and virtue!  As a result people suffer, not simply from their own faults, but the faults of the society in which they live. Of course, we get what we deserve at least where we get to choose our leaders.  If we're too stupid to select good leaders, and we follow a bad one, the outcome cannot be good!

What makes sense to me is that we are here to contend with ourselves, to understand our true nature, and the aspects of our conciousness.  How can one be in Heaven when they don't even know the first thing about who they are or what is truly right in terms of thought, feeling, or conduct?

 

[WayOutWest]

rick,

It does state that it's the "primary sign", not the only sign BUT I had the same thought occur to me.  My first thought was "is that all?"  The flip side is you can't LIE about memorizing the Qur'an like you can LIE about accepting Jesus Christ.  Now it does say all you have to do is recite the Q, does that mean recite from memory or just read and recite?

I'm very interested in reading the Q but I've read that it's considered very bad to have it translated from the original Arabic.  That being said, is there an English version?

Making sense of it all is very difficult, IMO it's ALOT easier to believe in God (Islam, Jewdism, etc...) that it is to believe in Jesus.  To beleive in Jesus and everything he represents leaves you with three options:

1.) Jesus was telling the truth
2.) Jesus was a liar
3.) Jesus was crazy

IMO option 2 is NOT viable, since he died for what he believed in and for his actions.  So was Jesus crazy or not?  Very tough call, 1,000,000 X tougher than just believing in a "God".

[Skandery]

"Recitation of the Qur'an in Islam is equivalent to a statement of 'faith' in Christianity. Hence, the primary sign of a true Muslim is recitation of the Qur'an."

"Tradition ascribes the following sayings to the Prophet Muhammad, thus serving as a reinforcement to the habit of recitation:
a. 'If any man recites the Qur'an and memorizes it, God will
cause him to enter Paradise and will grant him the right to
intercede successfully for ten people of his household, all
of whom deserve Hell Fire.'
b. 'The best man among you is he who learns the Qur'an and
teaches it.'
c. 'Learn the Qur'an, recite it and sleep.'
d. 'The most excellent act of worship is the reciting of the
Qur'an.'" - ibid.


Are those statements true?

As the resident Muslim, why don't take a crack at this.  I've never heard these particular sentences told to me before but I have heard many things along those lines and my best guess is that:  Yes, Miguel those statements are true, but did you notice the source?  The following are sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.  While the Prophet Muhammed is extremely revered as the human vessel in which God (Allah) brought down the final chapter of his "Word", anything he personally says does not get taken before the actual word of god, the Qu'ran.  In the Qu'ran, a muslim is responsible for 5 things:

1. Shahada (Acknowledgement that God is one, and Mohammed is his last prophet)
2. Daily Prayer
3. Charity
4. Fasting (during Ramadan)
5. Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca)

Now I don't see how a Muslim ignores all 5 of these things completely but memorizes the Qu'ran and then not only goes to paradise but intercedes on behalf of ten other people.  So was Muhammed blatently lying to get people to read the Qu'ran?  Not exactly.

Which leaves me with this explanation, one cannot undertake the task of memorizing the entire Qu'ran (word for word) without ALSO having the faith and belief to practice and fulfill each of the 5 pillars of Islam which ultimately represent the strength of one's faith to enter Paradise.  

And in my 25 years of life, I've never met anyone who had memorized the Qu'ran it its entirety who wasn't ALSO a very devout, practicing Muslim.  

My first thought was "is that all?"

...so, No, that's not all.

Now it does say all you have to do is recite the Q, does that mean recite from memory or just read and recite?

Recitation means memorization in this context, but whether you can recite the Qu'ran or have to read the Qu'ran, it really is secondary to 1) Faith (the belief) and 2) Action (the pillars).

I'm very interested in reading the Q but I've read that it's considered very bad to have it translated from the original Arabic. That being said, is there an English version?

It does lose meaning when translated and it is encouraged that should someone convert, they should try to read and recite it in arabic (like in prayer) but that shouldn't discourage anyone from reading a translated version.  Any mosque will have tons of english-translated Qu'rans they'll let you borrow, actually in LA, probably even a public library would have them.

1.) Jesus was telling the truth
2.) Jesus was a liar
3.) Jesus was crazy

On this issue, as a Muslim, I believe Jesus was telling the truth in EVERYTHING he said.  Obviously with the one caveat where people came to believe he was the Son of God.  I always ask Christians this question and I either get different answers or an "I don't know".  In the Bible, did Jesus ever in plain, spoken, unmistakeable terms say, "I AM THE SON OF GOD"?

In Islamic belief, he never said this and is greatly revered as one of the "great" prohets of God.  You see God-The Father, or what Jews call Yahweh, and Allah....ALL the same thing in Islamic belief and we consider Jews and Christians -- People of the Book, or you might've heard the term -- Children of Abraham.


...that got long-winded...sorry.  

[rickortreat]

I don't know much about the Qur'an at all, including the validity of any translations.  I would imagine that something of it would be lost, since understanding of the true meaning would be necessary for any translation to be valid.

There's also a great deal of prejuidice from the followers of Islam towards the believers of other religions, and people who don't speak arabic.  The hypocrisy of justifying treating outsiders immorally because they don't know Islam is very telling to me!

This is not to say there's no value in reading the Qur'an, since the more one understands the better off one is.

Here's the thing: religion is something from man, not God.  If it were from God, there'd be only one religion and no question about it's authenticity.  And no religion would ever justify mistreating anyone because they didn't know about one people's specific beliefs.  

Any religion which says you have to believe as we do must be false, since it is impossible for others to even know or be aware of all religions, or have access to their writings.  Why would God exclude and individual from Alaska who never heard of the Qur'an?  And, what about all the people who lived and died before these texts became available, not to mention any possible extraterrestrials and their souls!

The only way anything makes sense is if the truth is universal and applies to everyone.  Meaning that whoever you are, whatever culture you came from, salvation or enlightenment should be possible.  So forget about any religion that excludes others or demands your enrollment.  If God is anything, he has to be fair to all the creatures he gave existance to!

This is why I have a real problem with religion- no proof or evidence, just fear mongering and control over your free will.

If anything is clear, it is that God gave each of us free will and the capacity to make choices for ourselves.  Any hope for enlightenment must come through the proper excercise of free will.  Unless the religion accepts all, and offers training to develop understanding, it can't be a true religion.  I cannot believe that God would exclude any of his creation on the basis of things beyond their ability to control.

Why would he give anyone existance and force them to suffer?  It makes no sense in any logical way and therefore to me, it cannot be true.

The real truth and the ability to see it lies with each individual.  God made all of us, and within us is the truth and the capacity to see it, provided we develop ourselves in the right way.  That makes sense, and that's the only thing that would be fair.


 

[Guest]

WayOut,

While I'm not a believer in Islam, some of the things it teaches do ring true to me as a Christian as well - in particular:

1)  We should be seeking God and His wisdom.  The idea that we would memorize those things we believe to be His word makes perfect sense to me.  Islam - apparently - has its way of saying what 2 Timothy 2:15 says:  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

2)  Reliance on God.  Islam teaches to pray to God five times a day;  Christianity says "Pray without ceasing."  Our walk with God needs to be of importance to us - not just an afterthought.

3)  God's power trumps the might of men.  God is further above us than we can ever hope to understand, and is deserving of our worship - not only for who He is, but for what He's done for us.

The place where I have to draw the line with Islam is the idea that it's our works - what we do - that get us into Heaven.  I can't see ever being able to do enough to warrant my inclusion in God's presence.  I know a good number of things I've done in my life that would take my lifetime and more to atone for.  If I'm relying on ANYTHING other than God's mercy and grace, I'm screwed.  God's forgiveness that's offered through His Son, Jesus, is the only way to Heaven, and that's because it wasn't what *I* have done, but what *GOD* has done.  God offers us the gift;  it's up to us to take it, realizing that we'll never be "deserving" of it, but realizing that it's God's greatness that made this all possible.  Say what you want, but it's an unavoidable fact that God is a GENEROUS God - a RIDICULOUSLY GENEROUS God.

As I see it, you're not far from the money when you say it's easier to believe in God than it is to believe in Jesus as His Son.  But, from my personal view, as I see it, Jesus offered himself up for us - he died for our sins - according to the will of the generous Father.  It's another of God's great generousities toward us - which, to me, is consistent with the way God has always been when it comes to us.  Only God Himself is capable of that kind of generousity.  And that being the case, it seems obvious to me that the answer to your question is "Jesus was telling the truth," when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

[Guest]

(This is Joe, by the way.)

And following up on Skander's point:

I regard "works" in Christianity much the same as Skander regards memorization of the Quran in Islam.  How could one possibly truly accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, and then keep living their life as if nothing had changed?

Skander - on the subject of whether Jesus proclaimed himself the Son of God:

From John 10:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Also, John 9:

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.


Sounds pretty clear to me.

                                                   Joe
 

[WayOutWest]

As the resident Muslim, why don't take a crack at this.  I've never heard these particular sentences told to me before but I have heard many things along those lines and my best guess is that:  Yes, Miguel those statements are true, but did you notice the source?  The following are sayings of the Prophet Muhammad.  While the Prophet Muhammed is extremely revered as the human vessel in which God (Allah) brought down the final chapter of his "Word", anything he personally says does not get taken before the actual word of god, the Qu'ran.  In the Qu'ran, a muslim is responsible for 5 things:

1. Shahada (Acknowledgement that God is one, and Mohammed is his last prophet)
2. Daily Prayer
3. Charity
4. Fasting (during Ramadan)
5. Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca)

Like Christianity, number 5 is borrowed from another beleif system.  I hear you in regards to Muhammed's words being broken up into two catagories, when God spoke through him and when he spoke for himself.

Now I don't see how a Muslim ignores all 5 of these things completely but memorizes the Qu'ran and then not only goes to paradise but intercedes on behalf of ten other people.  So was Muhammed blatently lying to get people to read the Qu'ran?  Not exactly.

That's what I figured, couldn't be that easy.  

Which leaves me with this explanation, one cannot undertake the task of memorizing the entire Qu'ran (word for word) without ALSO having the faith and belief to practice and fulfill each of the 5 pillars of Islam which ultimately represent the strength of one's faith to enter Paradise.

 

I don't agree, you'd be surprised what people are willing to do to get into Heaven short of surrendering themselves to their faith.

It does lose meaning when translated and it is encouraged that should someone convert, they should try to read and recite it in arabic (like in prayer) but that shouldn't discourage anyone from reading a translated version.  Any mosque will have tons of english-translated Qu'rans they'll let you borrow, actually in LA, probably even a public library would have them.

I'd rather get one WITHOUT being put on some Bush BS watchlist.

On this issue, as a Muslim, I believe Jesus was telling the truth in EVERYTHING he said.  Obviously with the one caveat where people came to believe he was the Son of God.  I always ask Christians this question and I either get different answers or an "I don't know".  In the Bible, did Jesus ever in plain, spoken, unmistakeable terms say, "I AM THE SON OF GOD"?

Yes he did, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John.  He was asked and answered as well.  That's one of the reasons he was put to death, it was actually an excuse.  The real reason was people believed him.

In Islamic belief, he never said this and is greatly revered as one of the "great" prohets of God.  You see God-The Father, or what Jews call Yahweh, and Allah....ALL the same thing in Islamic belief and we consider Jews and Christians -- People of the Book, or you might've heard the term -- Children of Abraham.

Yes to a certain exent, I've heard of the God of Abraham on several occassions.  

From what I've read it seems Muslims think the stories from Moses, Jesus, David etc... were corrupted by Jews and followers of the prophets.  Muhammed's stories (Q) were the only one's that were not corrupted which is why it's highly revered and are the only one's that are followed.

Interesting stuff to say the least.

[Skandery]

There's also a great deal of prejuidice from the followers of Islam towards the believers of other religions, and people who don't speak arabic. The hypocrisy of justifying treating outsiders immorally because they don't know Islam is very telling to me!

Rick, where'd you get this from?  The practice of treating ANYONE immorally based on their belief system is NOT the Islam that I grew up with.  Furthermore, I want to know what difference there is in a Muslim believing in the path of Islam being the true way of fulfilling one's soul calling for salvation is anymore prejudiced than a Christian believing in the path of Christianity, or a Buddhist with Buddhism, or any "believer" is his "faith".  I have NEVER been told to treat outsiders as immoral and WORST been told to use my faith as so-called justification for this bigoted way of behavior nor have I met any Islamic person who has.  Rick, have you ever even met a Muslim before?  
Oh and if its our hypocritic practice of looking down on the poor, immoral, saps of the world, would you answer me why Islam is one of the few world religions that has no doctrine and no history of "Missionaries" or "Forcible Conversion".  I think you need to get some facts straight before you call 1.2 billion people hypocrits and prejudiced.

Incredible  :nonono:          

[rickortreat]

Why then, Joe, would God allow himself to be crucified by evil self-serving men?

Endure suffering in human form, by the hands of humans in order that we could have a way to heaven?  How does that work?

"26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

How can we not be of his sheep if we are all his children?  

Whatever errors we commit, we pay for, or at least that's the way I experience it- how else can we learn to do what is right?  How can we be with God if we continue to act or think improperly?  And, how are we in sin if we are born ignorant of our true nature and our relationship with the creator.  What did we do, or could possibly have done, that justifies that in our previous existance?  And if we didn't exist prior to this life, what justification is there for us to be born in sin?

Look, everything is of God by definition, and you're telling me that he allows himself to be brutalized by ignorant, unworthy people?  What kind of a God would allow that? I can't accept the Christian explanation.

At the very least, he'd call up a storm or a flood, or make them all pass out and abandon them as not being ready to hear his word.  He certainly wouldn't allow such injustice to take place to his self.  One would think God would have a better way to forgive us than go through that!

No one knows where they were before they came here.  No one knows how they got from where they were into this world.

How's this for an explanation:  We are all works in progress.  The creator gave us being and awareness and then let us go off on our own.  An environment is provided for us in which to become aware and develop our minds and perceptions.  Creation is highly complex and difficult to understand or comprehend.  It takes a long time for a being to reach the point where ohe can appreciate their own existance or the concept of God.  The first step towards enlightenment is admitting you don't know.  Humility and on open mind are necessary, not dogma.

And how is it that you get to be a human being, but others lesser animals or plants?  It makes more sense to think that your soul has inhabited many forms over a very long period of time to enable you to get to the point where you can read this and understand it.  It also makes sense that as you continue, you may develop to the point where you really can understand God and creation.

The truth is, we are ignorant of our own true nature and the nature of reality.  Death is a mystery to us, even the future in oiur lives is a mystery to us.  Whatever we are, we're a long way from true understanding, which is why we're vulnerable to believing in stories.

God has no need for suckers!

[WayOutWest]

WayOut,

While I'm not a believer in Islam, some of the things it teaches do ring true to me as a Christian as well - in particular:

1)  We should be seeking God and His wisdom.  The idea that we would memorize those things we believe to be His word makes perfect sense to me.  Islam - apparently - has its way of saying what 2 Timothy 2:15 says:  "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

2)  Reliance on God.  Islam teaches to pray to God five times a day;  Christianity says "Pray without ceasing."  Our walk with God needs to be of importance to us - not just an afterthought.

3)  God's power trumps the might of men.  God is further above us than we can ever hope to understand, and is deserving of our worship - not only for who He is, but for what He's done for us.

There are many similarities between "the big 3".

The place where I have to draw the line with Islam is the idea that it's our works - what we do - that get us into Heaven.  I can't see ever being able to do enough to warrant my inclusion in God's presence.  I know a good number of things I've done in my life that would take my lifetime and more to atone for.  If I'm relying on ANYTHING other than God's mercy and grace, I'm screwed.  God's forgiveness that's offered through His Son, Jesus, is the only way to Heaven, and that's because it wasn't what *I* have done, but what *GOD* has done.  God offers us the gift;  it's up to us to take it, realizing that we'll never be "deserving" of it, but realizing that it's God's greatness that made this all possible.  Say what you want, but it's an unavoidable fact that God is a GENEROUS God - a RIDICULOUSLY GENEROUS God.

From a Christian point of view, I totally agree with you about our works not being the way to salvation.  Just look at Moses, he failed God, he flat out ignored God's word yet he will sit at God's side in heaven.  On the flip side I can't speak for another beleif systems God.  The Christian God HATES, I was very surprised to read that, so if the Christian God is capable of hate maybe the God of other beleifs has a much more difficult criteria for getting into heaven, maybe you have to live a perfect life to get in, a perfect life is not impossible, just highly improbable.  I don't know what the God of Islam's stance is on forgiveness.  One reason I've recently turned to seek Gods help is his capacity for forgiveness.  I've read that once you honestly ask for forgiveness from God it is granted and not only does God forgive but he forgets.  No man has the right to remember what God has chosen to forget.  I have tons of stuff I need to forgive and forget and I know I'm not capable of doing that without some help.

As I see it, you're not far from the money when you say it's easier to believe in God than it is to believe in Jesus as His Son.  But, from my personal view, as I see it, Jesus offered himself up for us - he died for our sins - according to the will of the generous Father.  It's another of God's great generousities toward us - which, to me, is consistent with the way God has always been when it comes to us.  Only God Himself is capable of that kind of generousity.  And that being the case, it seems obvious to me that the answer to your question is "Jesus was telling the truth," when he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I'm right on the money, don't you forget it.  In regards to Jesus telling the truth, maybe good hasn't sent his son yet, we can't know for sure, we only have faith.  While God generosity would make it obvious that a vessel for salvation must be available to us, who's to say if it's been given or has yet to be given.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Adam and Eve blew it for us and our relationship with God and Jesus was sent to make amends, what about all the people in between?  Doesn't seem fair or generous to them.

[WayOutWest]

There's also a great deal of prejuidice from the followers of Islam towards the believers of other religions, and people who don't speak arabic. The hypocrisy of justifying treating outsiders immorally because they don't know Islam is very telling to me!

Rick, where'd you get this from?  The practice of treating ANYONE immorally based on their belief system is NOT the Islam that I grew up with.  Furthermore, I want to know what difference there is in a Muslim believing in the path of Islam being the true way of fulfilling one's soul calling for salvation is anymore prejudiced than a Christian believing in the path of Christianity, or a Buddhist with Buddhism, or any "believer" is his "faith".  I have NEVER been told to treat outsiders as immoral and WORST been told to use my faith as so-called justification for this bigoted way of behavior nor have I met any Islamic person who has.  Rick, have you ever even met a Muslim before?  
Oh and if its our hypocritic practice of looking down on the poor, immoral, saps of the world, would you answer me why Islam is one of the few world religions that has no doctrine and no history of "Missionaries" or "Forcible Conversion".  I think you need to get some facts straight before you call 1.2 billion people hypocrits and prejudiced.

Incredible  :nonono:

It's ignorance that perpetuates the stereotypes, I don't mean ingnorance in a bad way, just in the sense that "you don't know".

There was an interesting point made in the TV show "The West Wing" a few years ago.  A statement was made:

The Taliban is to Islam as ____________ is to Christianity.

Unfortunately, Islam to America has been defined by 9/11, the Taliban, Osama and Iraq.  There is good and bad in every beleif system, for every Taliban there is a Klu Klux Klan.

[Skandery]

Like Christianity, number 5 is borrowed from another beleif system. I hear you in regards to Muhammed's words being broken up into two catagories, when God spoke through him and when he spoke for himself.

Interesting!  I didn't know Christianity had a form of indoctrinated pilgramage -- besides Sunday church (or Mass) of course.

I don't agree, you'd be surprised what people are willing to do to get into Heaven short of surrendering themselves to their faith.

 :rofl:

Nice use of words there.  The actual, literal definition of the word "Islam" is surrender.

Yes he did, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He was asked and answered as well. That's one of the reasons he was put to death, it was actually an excuse. The real reason was people believed him.

I still see it as a way of interpretation.  In many of the quotes Joe provided (thanks, BTW) he's referring to the father, or my father, the phrase "I and my father are one" could have a deity-believer relationship or connotation.

 

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

There's little room for interpretation here, Jesus calls himself the Son of God.  I should rephrase my question a little better and ask whether Jesus referred to himself as God, or the manifestation of God that we are allowed to see.  Because the term Son of God once again may be interpreted as Leader-Follower relationship.

From what I've read it seems Muslims think the stories from Moses, Jesus, David etc... were corrupted by Jews and followers of the prophets. Muhammed's stories (Q) were the only one's that were not corrupted which is why it's highly revered and are the only one's that are followed.

That's one way of looking at it.  I look at it as though humanity wasn't ready for the entirety of the message so they recieved it in pieces or chapters.  Before Moses, the way of Abraham was correct, before Christ, Judaism was the rightful path, before Mohammed, Christianity was the closest path.

Definitely interesting


On a sidenote -- Were it actually true that Jesus Christ bore a child and had a lineage throughout history.  Would that fact and his divinty be mutually exclusive or it wouldn't matter one way or the other.  
 
 

[rickortreat]

Rick, where'd you get this from? The practice of treating ANYONE immorally based on their belief system is NOT the Islam that I grew up with. Furthermore, I want to know what difference there is in a Muslim believing in the path of Islam being the true way of fulfilling one's soul calling for salvation is anymore prejudiced than a Christian believing in the path of Christianity, or a Buddhist with Buddhism, or any "believer" is his "faith". I have NEVER been told to treat outsiders as immoral and WORST been told to use my faith as so-called justification for this bigoted way of behavior nor have I met any Islamic person who has. Rick, have you ever even met a Muslim before?
Oh and if its our hypocritic practice of looking down on the poor, immoral, saps of the world, would you answer me why Islam is one of the few world religions that has no doctrine and no history of "Missionaries" or "Forcible Conversion". I think you need to get some facts straight before you call 1.2 billion people hypocrits and prejudiced.

From History.  A mongol trader came into what is current day Iran, seeking to trade.  The muslims there stole his goods from him and sent him packing.  The mongol hordes drove through and conquered the area on their way to Europe.  That's when Babylon was destroyed.  Since then Islam has always looked at the rest of the world with apprehension.

No, that isn't what Islam teaches, but it is how it is practised by some.  The same is true of the followers of other religions as well, of course.  

The difference between Christainity, Judaism and Islam as oppossed to Bhuddism, is that in the "big three" one prays to god and rely's on him for salvation, needing forgiveness from him.  By contrast in Bhuddism, there is no prayer to a diety, there is practice and meditation and you by your own growth attain enligtenment.

The "big three" rely on faith, in the absence of evidence.  The very definition of a sucker!

One thing all they have in common is some version of the Ten Commandments.  Thou shalt not Kill is a big one.  All of the "big three" have done some killing in God's name.  If that isn't hypocracy, what is?

Incidentaly, from what I understand Muhammed went to Jerusalem and asked to be converted to Judaism.  As you may know the Jews also don't invite others to join.  The rule is that you must ask three times before being given permission to start the process to convert.  As the story goes, Muhhamed was refused the first time and went off to find Allah on his own.

You know very well that the followers of Islam call the rest of us infidels, and compare Jews to pigs and dogs.  Again that isn't what Islam teaches, but it is the way it is practiced by some.  Again it is recorded fact that it was Jews who stood with Muhammed against the local tribes, I believe in Medina.  What kind of a muslim would say anything bad about Jews when this is part of the story of Muhammed?

The truth is, the Jews and Muslims used to get along, up until the time of the Spanish Inquistion when the Catholics chased the Moors out of Spain.  Jews lived thoughout Europe and Asia and became somewhat Westernized.  The creation of Israel is seen by Muslims as a establishment of a Judeo/Christian beachead in the middle east.

Currently Shia and Sunnis are killing each other in Iraq, each using their version of Islam to justify the killing.

I am sure that in it's true form Islam is a great religion, and the people who truly follow it's tennents are decent people.  But you know as well as I, that many use religion as a shield to justify their hatred and mistreatment of outsiders, and it's not just Christians that are guilty of that.  

[Guest_Joe Vancil]

Rick,

Why then, Joe, would God allow himself to be crucified by evil self-serving men?

To offer salvation to the souls of all mankind.  In a round-about way, I'd say he got the better end of the deal.

Or, if you prefer the smart-aleck answer, "Because the kind, selfless people refused to do it."

Endure suffering in human form, by the hands of humans in order that we could have a way to heaven? How does that work?

From Romans, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life."  Christ died to pay the penalty for our sin.  Because he was blameless, and died in our place, we do not have to experience spiritual death.  Only through his power, as God, was he able to pay the price, and overcome spiritual death.  It would have been impossible for any of us - but nothing is impossible for God.

"26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

How can we not be of his sheep if we are all his children?

Read the next verse.  We're the sheep of the Lord because we choose whether or not to follow him.  If we hear his voice, and follow, we're his.  If we ignore that voice, we're not.

Whatever errors we commit, we pay for, or at least that's the way I experience it- how else can we learn to do what is right? How can we be with God if we continue to act or think improperly? And, how are we in sin if we are born ignorant of our true nature and our relationship with the creator. What did we do, or could possibly have done, that justifies that in our previous existance? And if we didn't exist prior to this life, what justification is there for us to be born in sin?

We have been punished.  We've seen the sacrifice made by Christ on our behalf, and we live in the guilt and shame of knowing that he paid the price for us.  That changes us.

As for being "born in sin," as a Baptist, we believe in something called the "Age of Accountability."  There comes a time in our lives when we understand what sin is - when we understand the idea of "right" and "wrong" and can apply those concepts to our spiritual lives.  At that point, we have to decide where we stand.

Some never reach the "Age of Accountability" - they die young, or die before hearing of God's forgiveness.  God does not hold them accountable for sin.  And those who died before Jesus came, they received the good news of Jesus, too - through the mysteries of God.  They made their choices, just like we make ours...perhaps in the course of their lives on earth - perhaps afterward.  But it's not God's will for ANYONE to be lost.  He gives us chance after chance to follow him...but some people just won't.  Others put off the decision until it's too late.

At the very least, he'd call up a storm or a flood, or make them all pass out and abandon them as not being ready to hear his word. He certainly wouldn't allow such injustice to take place to his self. One would think God would have a better way to forgive us than go through that!

Why?  God is loving, but also just, as well as kind.  He paid the price for each of us...he, himself.  Yes, it was an injustice - but it was an injustice TO HIM, which he suffered FOR US.  He COULD HAVE taught the folks a good lesson, and called up a storm or flood, or make them abandon the idea.  Instead, he set an example through his own sacrifice.  He showed us how he wants us to live, by doing it himself.  He gave us the example that we're to follow...and I don't know about you, but that sounds like a GREAT way to teach us how we're supposed to live.

How's this for an explanation: We are all works in progress. The creator gave us being and awareness and then let us go off on our own. An environment is provided for us in which to become aware and develop our minds and perceptions. Creation is highly complex and difficult to understand or comprehend. It takes a long time for a being to reach the point where ohe can appreciate their own existance or the concept of God. The first step towards enlightenment is admitting you don't know. Humility and on open mind are necessary, not dogma.

And how is it that you get to be a human being, but others lesser animals or plants? It makes more sense to think that your soul has inhabited many forms over a very long period of time to enable you to get to the point where you can read this and understand it. It also makes sense that as you continue, you may develop to the point where you really can understand God and creation.

The truth is, we are ignorant of our own true nature and the nature of reality. Death is a mystery to us, even the future in oiur lives is a mystery to us. Whatever we are, we're a long way from true understanding, which is why we're vulnerable to believing in stories.

That would be a wonderful explanation - assuming, of course, that it were true.  God's word - in the Bible - explains to us that the scenario you just proposed isn't so.  We were created as human beings, with souls, by God's design.  It is who we are;  who we were meant to be - and who we've chosen by our own free will to become.  Our life is another one of God's wonderful gifts.  And, at our appointed hour, our life on earth will end - and our souls will face the judgement - whether immediately or at a future time is reasonably irrelevant...I doubt we'd know the difference.  But we are what God created - humans...not plants or animals or other people that have lived many, many lives.  I've never lived before.  I'll never live again.  This is the reason I was created - to choose whether or not to follow God and allow him to rule my life.  I'll make my choice - and I'll live with the consequences.  That's what the Bible teaches...and it's what I believe.

God has no need for suckers!

God has no need for ANYTHING.  God doesn't need the informed;  who would be more informed than him?  God doesn't need the wise;  who would be more wise than God?  God doesn't need the mighty;  his power is beyond that of anything imaginable.  God doesn't need ANYTHING.  Why he cares about us at all is a mystery that we'll never know for sure until we can ask him for ourselves.  But the Bible teaches us that he loves us all - the foolish, the wise, the powerful, the weak, and yes, even those "suckers" that are fooled by one deception or another.

I know the God I believe in, and pray to, and ask for help and guidance.  I know what he's like.  He sent his son, to pay the price on Calvary's cross for my sins, and I'm thankful and grateful that he did it.  He cares about me, and he's proved it over and over.  That's the story of salvation, Rick.  It's not as complicated as you're trying to make it.  It's the story of a God who cared about you so much, that he died for your sins, so that you could spend eternity with him.

In your life, I'm sure you've had a friend who was devoted to you...who has done something that caused him/herself to suffer, just so he/she could spend some time with you.  That's what God did - just on an eternal scale.