Lakers over Pistons. What was that

[Reality]

78-68 Pistons with about 2 min left in the 3rd.
I flip channels.  Gonna be a boring 4th where the Pistons grind it out for the double digit win.  Kobe is probably not going to score over 60.
MMnnn 10 realtime minutes goes by.
4 game minutes.  

86-80 Lakers.  An 18-0 run.

What the...
Props to Lakers for the ball distribution.  Once again Lamar seems to be more of the key to winning then Kobme.  Props to Kobe for passing plenty.

For the Larry Brown Haters who were chanting a month ago that Flip can do anythng Larry has done....a huge dose of reality.

Pistons woes.  Well they have been on a 4 game roadie with a back to backer.
However from what i saw, Flips biggest challenge is the return of Sheed.  The Portland type Sheed.  Last night during the implosion, actually just after the implosion when the Pistons were still within reach after a sweet give n go from Billups to BenWa for the jam, 'Sheed twice horks up needless treys.  Plenty of time on shot and game clock.  Not just that he missed them, but his blase blunthead look on face and walking back upcourt after the misses.  By the way that was en route to a 1-11 Sheed second half.  Just keep throwing them up Sheed, that's Pistons ball.

It did not escape Flips notice.  I wondered what he would say.  "They got a run, we got undisciplined. We were looking for the home-run shot instead of doing the best thing that we do, and that's execute offensively," Saunders said. "We were playing 45 feet from the basket with no dribbles."

If the "good Sheed" Detroit has enjoyed for two playoffs in a row goes back to the Bad Sheed, we'll see how Flip earns his stripes.

[westkoast]

The Pistons looked pretty tired to me.  Normally they don't lose to teams like the Lakers.  I don't think you blame Flip for that.  None of Larry Brown's Pistons teams had a season as good as this one so its hard to gauge how long this team could keep it up.  Phil Jackson was asked about the Pistons before all-star break.  Something along the lines of "Do you think the Pistons can match the Bulls 72-10" which he replied saying that its hard to finish off a season that strong because of the fatique factor.  IMO that is what you are starting to see with the Pistons.  You cannot blame the coach for that.  Was he suppose to tell them to relax and not try to win 80-90% of their games in the first half of the season?

To add to my point further:

Kwame Brown outrebounded Sheed Wallace and the Lakers big men forced him to take jump shots finishing 6 for 18
Pistons had barely any points in the paint in the 2nd half
They lost on the boards
The plays they normally run were not crisp and often looked slugish
They made alot of simple mental mistakes, ones .500 teams makes or ones that very tired teams make

[Reality]

IMO that is what you are starting to see with the Pistons.  You cannot blame the coach for that.  Was he suppose to tell them to relax and not try to win 80-90% of their games in the first half of the season?

To add to my point further:

Kwame Brown outrebounded Sheed Wallace and the Lakers big men forced him to take jump shots finishing 6 for 18
Pistons had barely any points in the paint in the 2nd half
They lost on the boards

"Forced" 'Sheed to take outside jumpshots?  Watch the game.  Sheed made zero attempt to drive the ball on many of the drought possessions.    

Not only Flip but all NBA coaches who let the bench people crust away while the beloved starters *must* be left in the game forever.  Fatigue my arse that is just bad coaching.  Repeat, Flip is not the only coach who does this.  

Why a very tired starter is supposed to be better then a fresh benchee -they aren't, it is simply not true.  Witness an 18-0 run.

But agree some losses on back to backers do not erase the Fab start Detroit had.
46-12 is still fantastic and better then Larry in the reg season.  For what that is worth......

[westkoast]

"Forced" 'Sheed to take outside jumpshots? Watch the game. Sheed made zero attempt to drive the ball on many of the drought possessions.

Sheed was not getting to his spots in the paint and did not have the energy to want to bang with Kwame Brown in the post.  Kwame was also hustling hard on the other side of the court trying to get his own position and I think that took more energy out of Sheed.

Not only Flip but all NBA coaches who let the bench people crust away while the beloved starters *must* be left in the game forever. Fatigue my arse that is just bad coaching. Repeat, Flip is not the only coach who does this.

Matchup wise he used the right players at the right time.  Even if you have bench players when your starters lose gas by the middle of the 3rd quarter there is not much you can do.  You cannot have bench players all the sudden come out and do their thing when they don't play that role on the squad.  

Why a very tired starter is supposed to be better then a fresh benchee -they aren't, it is simply not true. Witness an 18-0 run.

A tired Chauncey Billups is better than a fresh-anyone when it comes to this squad.  He dictates the flow of the game and the poise.  He was sitting on the bench when the Lakers made the run and by the time he came back and established that poise the Pistons pulled within 5.

But agree some losses on back to backers do not erase the Fab start Detroit had.
46-12 is still fantastic and better then Larry in the reg season. For what that is worth......

I think they are realizing exactly how hard it is to keep playing at such a high level.  The problem is coasting is horrible for a team but going all out every game also is bad for a team as you can see.  The Pistons lost two games this past week to teams that they should have stomped on.

[Guest_Randy]

The bottom line on this game has to be the rebound stats -- anytime that Kwame Brown has double the rebounds of Big Ben, you KNOW there is something going on.  

The Pistons need to rest a guy or two at this point, IMO, because they look tired and may have peaked too early!  

[Reality]

Sheed was not getting to his spots in the paint and did not have the energy to want to bang with Kwame Brown in the post. 


Matchup wise he used the right players at the right time

A tired Chauncey Billups is better than a fresh-anyone when it comes to this squad. 


 

"Sheed did not have the energy to want to bang with Kwame."  My point exactly.

"Matchup wise he used the right players at the right time.  Even if you have bench players when your starters lose gas by the middle of the 3rd quarter there is not much you can do.  You cannot have bench players all the sudden come out and do their thing when they don't play that role on the squad."

Put the bench players in earlier, like when Detroit was up by 13!
Put them in the previous 3 road games.
Yeah waiting until the tired starters have squandered the lead in the 3rd qtr of ONE game is not what I'm talking about.

Billups is but one of 4 starters.  If he was the lone Piston who still had gas, that hardly erases the low fumes of the other 4.  Randolph notes how Kwame dogged BenWa.

Pop is getting big props from me for his 2nd half distribution of bench minutes.  
It will payoff come playoff time.  Now if he would stop playing Dunkar the most minutes of the team I'll be even happier.

[westkoast]

"Pop is getting big props from me for his 2nd half distribution of bench minutes.
It will payoff come playoff time. Now if he would stop playing Dunkar the most minutes of the team I'll be even happier. "

Pop also has more flexibility when it comes to his bench because of the types of players he has (Mohammed, Finley, Van Exel)
 
Also, Flip did sit some of the starters down when they got the lead.  Billups and Ben Wallace (Dont remember if it was Ben or not Ill check TiVO tonight, Billuips was on the bench)  I believe were on the bench at 3 minute mark when the Lakers decided to go off on a tear.

I would love to be like 'YEA LAKERS ARE GETTING IT DONE' but they are so inconsistant that this only proves that further.  How you can dominate the best team in the league in the 3rd and 4th quarter yet 2 weeks ago they got smacked around by the Atlanta Hawks in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

[Reality]

Previously i started a thread on (words to the effect of) "are 9-12 bench people to be left to crust and not contribute?"  In it i asked us to put our collective heads together to recall whom:

Affected not only a reg season or playoff run, but a Finals appearance and even Finals win.

Players who came in, usually because of an injury to the sooo much better (supposedly) starter.  How was it that 2 seconds before the starter got injured, the #9-#12 bench guy was *allegedly* a non contributor unworthy of NBA action?

We came up with a bunch of players.

Your exact words were "Great thread Reality."

So, back to Det-LAL.  I am not talking about soley the 4 minute 18-0 run.  I am talking about everything that led up to it.  Pistons acquired Dale Davis.  6-11.  He can and has spelled BenWa.  In two wins a week ago.  Why is he sitting the next 3 games, playing zero minutes concluding with the Laker 2nd half blowout?  BenWa obviously tired and with 5 total rebounds :eek2:   DD could certainly have done that and provided BenWa with rest.  it's a win-win.:wub:

Sheed.  Looked like the old pot smoking Latrell Spreewell atitudinal dont give a crap me me me Sheed.  Jason Maxiell is a 1st round rookie from Cincinatti.  Forward.  Put him in.   Flip also has another forward in a young punk named Amir Johnson sitting on the bench.  Sure hes only 18.  So, look what Phil Jackson has done with Bynum.  Scoff at Bynum all one wants to, he has looked good at times.  At least decent.  At least better then a huffing and puffing ineffective starter.
Is it better to put them in or let Sheed continue on his pothead 1-11 no-defense snooze thru the second half game?  By that I mean better for Sheed also.  Give him a rest, let him come back strong the next game.

Sure when you compare Flip to Pop.  Pop has the #1 team in the league and the deepest bench.  Compare Flip to the other 29 teams.  Its an NBA practice (generally) to let #9-#12 crust.  One i don't agree with.

Can you recall any of the #9-#12s who ended up playing in the Finals and contributing? :up:  

[westkoast]

Previously i started a thread on (words to the effect of) "are 9-12 bench people to be left to crust and not contribute?"  In it i asked us to put our collective heads together to recall whom:

Affected not only a reg season or playoff run, but a Finals appearance and even Finals win.

Players who came in, usually because of an injury to the sooo much better (supposedly) starter.  How was it that 2 seconds before the starter got injured, the #9-#12 bench guy was *allegedly* a non contributor unworthy of NBA action?

We came up with a bunch of players.

Your exact words were "Great thread Reality."

So, back to Det-LAL.  I am not talking about soley the 4 minute 18-0 run.  I am talking about everything that led up to it.  Pistons acquired Dale Davis.  6-11.  He can and has spelled BenWa.  In two wins a week ago.  Why is he sitting the next 3 games, playing zero minutes concluding with the Laker 2nd half blowout?  BenWa obviously tired and with 5 total rebounds :eek2:   DD could certainly have done that and provided BenWa with rest.  it's a win-win.:wub:

Sheed.  Looked like the old pot smoking Latrell Spreewell atitudinal dont give a crap me me me Sheed.  Jason Maxiell is a 1st round rookie from Cincinatti.  Forward.  Put him in.   Flip also has another forward in a young punk named Amir Johnson sitting on the bench.  Sure hes only 18.  So, look what Phil Jackson has done with Bynum.  Scoff at Bynum all one wants to, he has looked good at times.  At least decent.  At least better then a huffing and puffing ineffective starter.
Is it better to put them in or let Sheed continue on his pothead 1-11 no-defense snooze thru the second half game?  By that I mean better for Sheed also.  Give him a rest, let him come back strong the next game.

Sure when you compare Flip to Pop.  Pop has the #1 team in the league and the deepest bench.  Compare Flip to the other 29 teams.  Its an NBA practice (generally) to let #9-#12 crust.  One i don't agree with.

Can you recall any of the #9-#12s who ended up playing in the Finals and contributing? :up:

Just because I said you had a good thread does not mean you and I see eye to eye when it comes to our definitions of contribute.  See you think Finley has to shoot above 50% and score each moment he is in to contribute where as I think he just has to play solid defense while Manu is getting a breather to contribute.  Maybe keep defenders on him by shooting make or miss.

I will partially agree that Flip should have tried other combinations.  I agree in the sense they were not playing the Mavs or Spurs...they were playing the Lakers.  Not exactly a powerhouse team and a team you can afford to gamble with when you are so much better than they are collectively.  I disagree at the same time because Flip was doing his normal rotation and even a 80% Ben Wallace is better than a 160% Kwame Brown.  The Pistons got close once the starters came back in and put their mind to it.  They decided to settle for jump shots and pushed themselves out of the game by doing so.

On top of the physical fatique there seems to be a little bit of mental fatique also.  Teams are gunning for them right now and they need to be aware of that.

How many 9-12s have come off the bench in the finals to contribute?  You could have a long list and there are a boatload of good bench players in the league currently....problem is the are not all are on one team (except the Spurs)