TNT to pick Next 10 of the greatest players

[Lurker]

Just to expand on the Rodman "controversy"....

Rodman routinely got chewed on for NOT running the offense correctly.  He regularly just "ran to the basket" looking for the offensive board.  One of the reasons he was so good at it.  The other four players couldn't count on him being in the right spot but could always count on finding him under the basket looking for the carom.

And to a certain degree he did the same thing defensively...he would at times leave his man early if he thought a shot was going to go up.  Just so he could be in position to rebound.  

And I don't recall Rodman being a large part of those Piston teams....I remeber Lambier, Mahorn, Salley, & James Edwards.  Rodman was only in his 2nd or 3rd year when the Pistons started winning titles.

 

[Skandery]

I do not remember him being the greatest defensive player of all time in SA. One hell of a rebounder but not the end all be all when it came to defense.

"greatest defensive player of all time in SA", that's you putting words in my mouth.  Dennis Rodman is one of the greatest defensive players of all time with respect to his entire career, not just in SA.  My personal opinion is that Mr. Bill Russell is THE greatest defensive player of all time.    

Not exactly sure how you are pinning Robinson's offensive production to Rodman in that 2 year stint.

I'm not giving all the credit to Rodman as you insinuate.  I simply pointed out that it should not be a surprise that Robinson had his best offensive production while playing with Rodman.

The guy was just flat out better than anyone guarding him.

I disagree while Robinson was quite dominant during that time, Hakeem Olajuwon was better.

The first year Rodman showed up they were swept by the Jazz and I believe he was guarding Karl Malone the entire series. Doesn't help your case for Rodman if the team you are playing sweeps you while you are guarding their best player.

The Utah Jazz owned the Spurs during that time.  I would say that Dennis Rodman did all he could to stop the Spurs from being the Jazz whipping boy but to no avail.  And yes, Rodman was guarding Utah's best player, I'm glad you mentioned that.

Also, that second year you are reffering to....do you think David Robinson's scoring had anything to do with the fact that Avery Johnson was running the offense to a T and the other teams' defense had to stay home on shooters like Sean Elliot?

You're right, Avery had a remarkable year that year, his career APG average in fact.  Sean Elliott was also an integral piece of that team as a scorer.  Rodman did things like dive headfirst to keep possession, set the pick up high to help Avery's penetration, free Elliott's jumpshot on a pick in the paint, spread the floor for Robinson to work, force his matchup to the help and rotate to the shooter, push guys out of position in the low block, take the charge to save a layup.  By the way, nothing I just mentioned gets recorded in the boxscore.

Why was Pippen chosen to guard the best players on the opposing team instead of Rodman?

You'd be more accurate in saying Pippen was chosen to guard the best "perimeter" player on the opposing team.  Many times, Rodman was placed on the opposing team's top post threat and did fantastic considering the height and weight disadvantage.  The man's anticipation was legendary: its what helped him get his charges (flops as Reality said) and why he is regarded by some as the best rebounder in NBA history at 6'7!  
 

[Reality]

Just to expand on the Rodman "controversy"....

Rodman routinely got chewed on for NOT running the offense correctly.  He regularly just "ran to the basket" looking for the offensive board.  One of the reasons he was so good at it.  The other four players couldn't count on him being in the right spot but could always count on finding him under the basket looking for the carom.

And to a certain degree he did the same thing defensively...he would at times leave his man early if he thought a shot was going to go up.  Just so he could be in position to rebound.

Chuck Barkley got pissed off at the height of Rodman media mania when Rodman was headlines on SportCenter every night with his rebound total.  

Barkley said he could do the same thing if he did as you mentioned below and strictly went for rebounds.   Chuck pulled down like 22 the game he did it (help me out here rt-dabods), and if i remember correctly he only did it for one game.  To prove his point.  The Sixers lost i think.

Shows Rodman could even get under Barkleys skin.

That is not to take away from all the great rebounding Rodman did do.  But Chuck wasnt far behind in career rebound average 13.3 to 11.0 or similiar.  And Chuck did it while dropping 25 ppg.

I think the key word is context.  Rodman was a great rebounder, no doubt.  

And he did influence the two Piston titles.  In fact he choked away a certain title vs the Fakers in 1988.  If you saw it you know what I mean.  The infamous Rodman hoist and brick with plenty of time on the shot clock when the situation screamed for getting the ball to Isaiah for the clinching foul shots.

More titleness.  Didn't guard Karl Malone? Oh my Skander remind Joe of the technical The Worm got rung up on a frustrated temper tauntrum throwing Mailman.

[Joe Vancil]

More titleness. Didn't guard Karl Malone? Oh my Skander remind Joe of the technical The Worm got rung up on a frustrated temper tauntrum throwing Mailman.

While with the Spurs?  I sure don't remember that.  I remember Malone guarding David Robinson.  I remember David Robinson guarding Karl Malone.

Rodman got Malone hot a few times when he was a member of the Bulls, but if you remember those series, it was really the fact that Brian Williams in 1997 and Jason Caffey in 1998 really decided to try to body Malone and keep him out of the lane, and did quite an effective job of it - with Skander and me screaming at Malone to take the ball to the hole the whole time.  While Rodman did guard Malone, it was Williams/Caffey in relief of Rodman who STOPPED Malone.
 

[Skandery]

While Rodman was with the Spurs, Joe; Rodman guarded Malone a majority of the time.  Malone guarded D. Robinson a majority of the time.  This I remember without a doubt, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

Rodman's superior defensive footwork and quick hands was better on the posting Malone and should Malone beat Rodman, Rodman will force him to a great help-defender in Robinson.

Malone's tendency to want to strip the ball down low instead of be a shot-blocker meant he matched up with the taller Robinson very well and should Robinson beat him, Mark Eaton and (sadly even the likes of) Felton Spencer was a better shot-blocking presence than Malone would be.  

     

[Ted]

Rodman got Malone hot a few times when he was a member of the Bulls, but if you remember those series, it was really the fact that Brian Williams in 1997 and Jason Caffey in 1998 really decided to try to body Malone and keep him out of the lane, and did quite an effective job of it - with Skander and me screaming at Malone to take the ball to the hole the whole time.  While Rodman did guard Malone, it was Williams/Caffey in relief of Rodman who STOPPED Malone.

Just clearing up a few things, in case any of you have forgotten I was a Bulls fan for my first 25 years.

1. Jason Caffey was not with the Bulls in 1998, or at least he did not play a minute in the finals.

2. Jason Caffey averaged 2.8 minutes per game in the 1997 Finals.

3. Dennis Rodman averaged 27.2 minutes per game in the 1997 finals; Bison Williams (RIP) averaged 20.2. Rodman was usually in the game when Karl Malone was in; however, Bison was very very good against Karl, too. But I think his contribution is over-emphasized because of his situation that season. Rodman simply owned Karl mentally, but as my next point will show, it did not affect Karl's overall performance that much. I do however believe that it did affect Karl in crunch time . . . that and Karl's bad luck and whatever it was that made him shoot hopeless fadeaways during crunch time.

4. Karl Malone average over 40 minutes per game, scored 23.8 points per game, collected 10.3 rebounds per game, and dished out 3.5 assists per game in the 1997 finals. His numbers in 1998 were 25 PPG, 11.5 RPG, 3.7 APG. In the final game in which he kindly held the ball out so Michael Jordan could steal it away and pass it to Steve Kerr, he was almost monstrous: 31 pts, 11 rbs, 7 assists.

So you see, no one really "shut down" Karl Malone in the finals. Those are very respectable stats. I would say they (Rodman, Dele, Longley :rofl: ) rather kept him from raising his game to a higher level. Karl Malone in the finals was Karl Malone in the regular season. Maybe that's why the Jazz couldn't quite make it. I believe Dennis Rodman played the major role in keeping Karl from elevating his game to a playoff level.

[guest-koast]

If Rodman's anticipation for drawing charges is legendary then what word would you use to describe Vlade and Fisher Skander?    IMO I think you are giving him a little bit more credit than he deserves.  He is a great defender but I stick by my original statement.  In 10 years are we going to include Bruce Bowen in a list like this because he was such a great defender on championship teams for years?  I doubt it.

I saw the Worm last week, almost bumped into him at this burger joint out by my house while he was coming out the door.   Big mofo.  You guys should see his hummer with the naked girls and Laker jersey painted on it.  He lives like 10 minutes away from me so I'll have to snap a photo of it sometime.

[Guest_Randy]

I think most of us have disagreed that Rodman deserves to be considered -- however, he was a fantastic defender and one of the best rebounders to EVER play the game.  Bowen is a fantastic defender but what else are you going to say about him?

The closest comparison in the NBA today, IMO, is Big Ben -- but Wallace actually has a bit of offensive skill.  

Neither belongs on the list, IMO.

[guest-koast]

I think most of us have disagreed that Rodman deserves to be considered -- however, he was a fantastic defender and one of the best rebounders to EVER play the game.  Bowen is a fantastic defender but what else are you going to say about him?

The closest comparison in the NBA today, IMO, is Big Ben -- but Wallace actually has a bit of offensive skill.  

Neither belongs on the list, IMO.

That he has consitantly hit big 3's that pull the defense away from Tim Duncan so he can operate?  Not just in the regular season but in the playoffs.

With the new rules crippling defenders and the fact that there seems to be even more perimeter players dominating the offensive side of the ball than post players I would say that he has done a heck of a job.  It is harder to play defense now than when Rodman was in Detroit, SA, and even with the Bulls.
 

[Skandery]

If Rodman's anticipation for drawing charges is legendary then what word would you use to describe Vlade and Fisher Skander?

I was refering to Rodman's anticipation in general, whether it was where he thought a player was driving to get in position for a charge or whether it was which way the ball was going to carom off the rim.  But in the interest of consistency I'll acquiesce: Vlade's and D Fish's anticipation for drawing charges is also legendary.  We cool?  

IMO I think you are giving him a little bit more credit than he deserves. He is a great defender but I stick by my original statement. In 10 years are we going to include Bruce Bowen in a list like this because he was such a great defender on championship teams for years? I doubt it.

Tell ya what, wk, if Bowen were to somehow end up on another team and his awesome perimeter defense were to contribute in a meaningful way to another dynasty, I'll put him on my list.  I promise.  Heck, if Bowen manages to win three more championships with the Spurs, I'll start to consider mentioning him alongside Rodman.  How's that?

In the meantime, here's two facts that you might find interesting:

Rodman holds the distinction of having the highest winning percentage of any player in NBA history.  Mind-boggling when you think of Bill Russell and the Celtic dynasty, Jordan - Bulls dynasty, Magic - Laker dynasty, Bird.  None of those guys have Rodman's win percentage.

Rodman rebounded 23% of the shots that were available for him to rebound while on the floor, FAR AND AWAY the highest percentage in NBA history of any player.  And NBA history has known some dynamite rebounders; the aforemention Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, etc.      

I saw the Worm last week, almost bumped into him at this burger joint out by my house while he was coming out the door. Big mofo. You guys should see his hummer with the naked girls and Laker jersey painted on it. He lives like 10 minutes away from me so I'll have to snap a photo of it sometime.

Interestingly, Yahoo has been reporting that Rodman wants to make a return to the NBA at the age of 45 and David Stern is blocking him.  He said that Stern blocked him 2 years ago in Toronto and last year in Denver.  Let it go, Dennis!

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I think most of us have disagreed that Rodman deserves to be considered

That maybe true Randy, but there is one guy who does agree with me.  An SI.com journalist chosen to be one of the panelists that will be voting for the next 10 players, Kelly Dwyer.  And not only did he agree with me that Rodman should be considered, he placed him on his personal Next 10 list, so  :moon:  

     


   

[westkoast]

was refering to Rodman's anticipation in general, whether it was where he thought a player was driving to get in position for a charge or whether it was which way the ball was going to carom off the rim. But in the interest of consistency I'll acquiesce: Vlade's and D Fish's anticipation for drawing charges is also legendary. We cool?

Cool? I wasn't look for props for them, just curious what title they got for their anticipation hehe.

As for Rodman's anticipation...according to our SA-brethern this has also hurt teams that he has been on.  Of course it did more good than bad but I think it is something worth noting that his anticipation was not always a good thing.

Tell ya what, wk, if Bowen were to somehow end up on another team and his awesome perimeter defense were to contribute in a meaningful way to another dynasty, I'll put him on my list. I promise. Heck, if Bowen manages to win three more championships with the Spurs, I'll start to consider mentioning him alongside Rodman. How's that?

In the meantime, here's two facts that you might find interesting:

Rodman holds the distinction of having the highest winning percentage of any player in NBA history. Mind-boggling when you think of Bill Russell and the Celtic dynasty, Jordan - Bulls dynasty, Magic - Laker dynasty, Bird. None of those guys have Rodman's win percentage.

Rodman rebounded 23% of the shots that were available for him to rebound while on the floor, FAR AND AWAY the highest percentage in NBA history of any player. And NBA history has known some dynamite rebounders; the aforemention Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy, etc.

Rodman was only apart of one Dynasty.  With the way the Spurs have been playing over the past 4-5 years I would say if they grab a title this year they will be considered a dynasty in their own right.  Rodman has 5 titles to his name, 2 of which he was not a major contributor....so right now Bowen and Rodman are neck and neck in that department.

That is some very intresting stats, I do have to admit.  Although playing the other side of the fence I would also point out that he ended up on a back to back championship Pistons team and joined a championship Bulls team that was already getting it done before he showed up.  Granted he was a big contributor in SA and did contribute quite a bit to the already great Bulls team...but he did have some good luck where he ended up.  That should come into play when bringing that up.

Now that rebound stat is pretty impressive!  Not too much I can say about that other than all the players you named did not have the luxury of focusing in on just rebounding/defending.  All of them were expected and HAD to score points in order for their teams to win games.  Could you imagine what Wilt or Bill Russell could have done on the glass if they were not needed to score?  Kinda blows your mind if you think about it.

Interestingly, Yahoo has been reporting that Rodman wants to make a return to the NBA at the age of 45 and David Stern is blocking him. He said that Stern blocked him 2 years ago in Toronto and last year in Denver. Let it go, Dennis!

He was suppose to play for some Long Beach lower level type team last year.  That fell through for some reason.  I think it had to do with him not being all that dedicated.    Pretty much all he does is drive around Newport Beach down here and pick up on women.  Or almost knock over smaller guys like me in a rush to jump into his hummer with some burgers.

[Skandery]

Rodman has 5 titles to his name, 2 of which he was not a major contributor....so right now Bowen and Rodman are neck and neck in that department.

Let me get this straight westkoast.  Although Rodman was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year BOTH of the years that the Detroit Pistons won the championship, you're not going to give him credit for being a part of that Detroit Dynasty.  

HUH!?!   :huh:  

[Guest]

Rodman has 5 titles to his name, 2 of which he was not a major contributor....so right now Bowen and Rodman are neck and neck in that department.

Let me get this straight westkoast.  Although Rodman was the NBA Defensive Player of the Year BOTH of the years that the Detroit Pistons won the championship, you're not going to give him credit for being a part of that Detroit Dynasty.  

HUH!?!   :huh:

I stand corrected I thought they won in 87-88 and 88-89 not 89-90 90-91

[guest-koast]

Whoops that was me above.

Also, I don't consider winning the title back to back years a dynasty.  You never hear anyone call the Rockets a dynasty when they won back to back.

[Reality]

Interestingly, Yahoo has been reporting that Rodman wants to make a return to the NBA at the age of 45 and David Stern is blocking him.  He said that Stern blocked him 2 years ago in Toronto and last year in Denver.  Let it go, Dennis!

let it go Stern.

While it matters not to me if the Worm brings his circus back to the NBA,  who is that 3 piece ratings clown Stern to be blocking Rodman?