Is the NBA hurting the defensive side of the game?

[westkoast]

I'm not talking about the routine inconsistency of the NBA refs, where missed calls are made, or make-up calls are made. It is the inconsistency of favoritism, where players can do exact the same move and one will always get called for it and the other one can literally walk the ball up to the hoop and lay it in with no consequences. It takes away from any integrity of sports that fans should demand, not just in basketball, but other team sports as well.

You talk about rule changes and how they affect the game this season, but what you really want to know is if Artest is doing the handchecking or Kevin Martin, you know Martin will be called for a foul while Artest has an even chance of not getting it called.

Part of that stems from Refs watching stars closer than they do regular players.  I do it.  I am pretty sure you do it.  I tend to watch Baron Davis alot closer than I do say, Mike Dunleavy Jr.

Aside from that though JoMaL, ALOT of guys are scoring 30 points like nothing and are not even in the favoritism level of Kobe Bryant, Shaq, and Wade.  Gilbert Arenas is a star player but not someone you would expect to shoot 18 FTs.  Shawn Marion is a B-level (in terms of popularity) and he gets quite a few calls.  Jason Richardson is another one of those guys.    AK and Bowen are not exactly superstars by anymeans but they also get the benefit of the refs knowing their reputation as defensive stoppers.

Ill ask everyone this......do you think you are getting a better product by seeing higher scoring games?  That seems to be what the league is thinking.   The more points, the higher scoring games, and the more dunks is what the majority wants to see.  Maybe we are too big of fans to be dazzled by that??  We all could be far disconnected from the average fan.

Btw, Great points all around guys.  Looks like its always a little more to every situation in this league.  Especially this one.  

[Laker Fan]

Ill ask everyone this......do you think you are getting a better product by seeing higher scoring games?  That seems to be what the league is thinking.   The more points, the higher scoring games, and the more dunks is what the majority wants to see.  Maybe we are too big of fans to be dazzled by that??  We all could be far disconnected from the average fan.

No, we are not getting a better product, we are getting millions of non-fundamental knowing kids who want to see highlight reel dunks and plenty of players willing to pander to that type of fan base because they grew up watching the same thing, thanks to Michael Jordan and other like him. Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE a jaw dropping dunk as well as the next guy, when it is within the framwork of an offensive scheme or perhaps a fastbreak that was the result of a brilliant defensive stop on the other end. I hate to drag the hated Lakers into this but their offense of the 80's as run through Magic Johnson who almost ALWAYS thought pass first was a beautifil thing to watch, Magic's no look passes were artistry, the unbelievably maddening efficiency of Jerry Sloan's offense with (that STINKING lousy illegal screen pick and roll!), Boston's killer physical play at both ends of the court, and Detroit's suffocating defense... ahhh! Forgive me for waxing nostaligic but those days are gone, the exceptions being San Antonio, today's version of Detroit, and perhaps Miami.

I would rather talk about basketball as it shoulf be played with the fans on this board than the highlight reel junkies over on fanhome any day. I guess I'm just too old to understand the fascination with individual play in a team sport.

[Lurker]

My thoughts....

Is more offense exciting.  Yes.  But if it comes because we are watching a pregame layup drill then it defeats the purpose.  If it is due to a more uptempo game like the Sonics-Suns game then that's great.

However I also like to watch solid team defense.  And seeing Phoenix play against SA or Detroit can be more exciting than a 152-148 game.  IMO last year's finals between SA & Detroit were very exciting.   Not only were the players making adjustments but the coaches were showing why they are considered two of the top coaches in the league.  However it wasn't simple adjustments that the casual fan would see.  Instead it was changes in defensive rotations, changes in substitution patterns & matchups, area of the floor where the offense would originate, applying pressure at 3/4 court instead of midcourt.

But as I said those are things the common fan misses.  Hell, most likely half of the common fans wouldn't even have understood that last paragraph.  And in the NBA today it is those common fans that drive the business.  The ones that buy merchandise, that watch nationally televised games, the ones that actually watch all-star weekend.  And those people want to see high scoring offensive explosions....even if it comes at the expense of team play.  Mostly because those fans DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF TEAM PLAY.  It is the same reason you hear so many of them say that last year's finals was boring.

[Joe Vancil]

Let me state for the record that, while I like Skander's argument, I disagree with it.

Ask yourself who ran the prettiest offenses (in the half court) to watch over the last few years.

Adelman sans Webber.  His scheme is pass-oriented.  Saunders in Minnesota.  His scheme is ball movement.  Sloan in the Stockton/Malone days.  Dictated, directed cuts out of the UCLA set.

We just watched the Utah game last night, Skander.  If you noticed, there was a lot of standing around.  It was UGLY.  Lots of shots as the shot clock was expiring.  Poor ball movement.  It was obvious that Sloan was *NOT* dictating tons of cuts and such, as he has in the past.  No UCLA set.  No pick-and-roll.  Wasn't even like it was Utah we were watching.

I think that it takes good coaches to get players on the teams to move, because the Michael Jordan star image has gotten players who don't have the ball accustomed to standing around.  Heck, even in the triangle, consider that many of the guards were supposed to be "spot-up shooters."  You know what the effect of being a spot-up shooter is?  Well - from experience - I can tell you.  You start to stand around...waiting for that kick out.  Heck - you're open at the spot where you're expected to hit your shot.  Why should you move?

This past week, at my Upward basketball practice, we talked about where I wanted my players "standing around" at if there was no defender on them.  I told them I didn't want them standing around on the perimeter - I wanted them standing around right in front of the goal...stay there a couple of seconds...get out of the lane long enough to avoid a 3-second violation, and then GO RIGHT BACK.

Offense has suffered, and I lay the blame where George Karl, in his book, laid the blame - ISOLATION OFFENSE.  It's awful, slow, boring basketball.  It's effective - assuming you're isolating Michael Jordan, or a young, hungry Shaquille O'Neal.  And it's fun - assuming you're Jordan or O'Neal.  Kind of sucks to be Ron Harper or Rick Fox in such a scheme, though.

And, when you get right down to it, coaches controlled the game in the '70's and '80's, too.  MacLeod and the Suns and Mavericks.  Motta and Mavericks.  Moe and the Nuggets.  Cunningham and Riley and McKinney and Ramsey.  So you've got your D'Antonis of the bunch, but you've got your Adelmans, Saunderses, and Sloans, too.

It's not the coaches trying to get noticed.  It's the isolation offense that a number of them employ.

 

[Skandery]

Its a good thing you bring up Utah because, with that team especially, I see a lot of problems relating to trying to do to much.  Giricek goes around a double screen, the second screener then curls, nothing happens so they get they try and force the ball to Okur, standing around ensues, <BUZZ>, 24 second violation.  
I'm hesitant to blame Jerry Sloan per se, mostly because he doesn't have anything to prove to anyone, but impressionable young coaches try and unsuccessfully emulate these cerebral schemes.  Stan Van Gundy, lauded around the basketball community for being a pretty good coach in his own right, based his entire offense around the drive-and-dish, ROCKET SCIENCE huh?  

When the champion-level Jazz of the late 90s were really clicking, what did you see, Malone-Stockton pick and roll.  Now that team was good enough to execute the most intricate of offenses, but they found a way to simplify the game and get easy points.  I think every winning team has to do that.  Phoenix is a successful modern team: Stoudemire-Nash pick and roll.  San Antonio: Duncan-Parker pick and roll.  You can have all the off-the-ball movement, passing, screening, cutting, and sharing--bottom line--you have 24 seconds to get 1 of your 5 guys a clear shot.            

[Lurker]

Joe, to expand on the game a little last night.  In the first half the Spurs played mostly man-to-man and Utah was moving, passing and cutting to the hoop....mostly off of isolating AK or Okur near the top of the key.  Witness the 18-4 FT differential in Utah's favor at the half.  (side note - when illustrating great team play in the NBA isn't it amazing how often European players come up)

In the second half the Spurs played a lot more zone...more than I think I have seen all year.  And it did what the NBA wanted it to do...cut down on isolation.  However what happens is that NBA players DON'T KNOW HOW TO ATTACK A ZONE.  Mainly because the better offensive players almost never face one.  So in the NBA against a zone you see one of two things happen.  Either a team passes the ball around the perimeter until someone hoists up a long jumper as the shot clock run downs.  Or someone forces a drive into a collapsing zone and commits a turnover or really ugly shot.

[westkoast]

Don't you guys think these rules are encouraging isolation basketball??  The leagues goal, obviously, is to put forth what they think is a product that is going to sell well.  Micheal Jordan brought the league to even new heights popularity wise after what Bird/Magic did and he is Mr. Isolation.

If you think about the new rules and how they are calling contact on the perimeter it almost makes sense to run alot of isolation if you have players like Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Amare Stoudamire, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Gilbert Arenas, etc etc etc etc.  If you have a player who can make quick moves and pull up for shots quick then your team will more likely than not get alot more easy trips at the FT line.  I am not saying this is good or bad.  Just kinda pointing out that the NBA, by making these rules, are trying to push more isolation basketball indirectly by saying 'hay we are calling the perimeter very tight, it makes sense to let Tracy McGrady do his thing on the wing because either he will get a shot or get to the line'

America as a whole is obsessed with this one person does it all mentality.  Americans loved Mike because of it.  Plenty of Americans are starting to like Kobe because of it.   Americans love to focus in on a Bill Gates and make it as if he single handly made Microsoft what it is today with no help.  Americans love guys like Jayz because its made to look  like he turned himself into a 200 million dollar man with no help.  None of those guys I listed above did anything 100% by themselves yet certain media outlets and people who listen to those media outlets will say they did.  Mike certainly did not win all those titles himself.  Kobe has not won 23 Laker games by himself.  Bill Gates has surrounded himself with some great business minds.  Jay-z had two very great business partners who helped him get to where he is at.  I could go on and on!

[Guest]

Do you really think the coaches are dictating the isolation type offensive schemes?

I think the players just fall back on their street games once they run into any problems with the motion offense the coaches preach. Any zone defense would fail if the players just continue the motion offense to isolate within the system, but the tendency is to bail and play the one-on-one game instead of being patient.

The kids in the NBA today grew up watching some great one-on-one players and clearly they are emulating them. But those older players understood the fundamentals so much better then the players of today. It just LOOKED like they were playing one-on-one. If you watched, you could tell the teammates were forcing the defense out by spacing. But these things should mostly be taught when learning the skills of the game as a youngster. Once you get to the NBA, there is little patience to change the instincts of young players, and the players have little patience in relearning anything.

As Yoda said, "You must UNLEARN what you have learned". Good luch in doing that.    

[Skandery]

Once you get to the NBA, there is little patience to change the instincts of young players, and the players have little patience in relearning anything.

Its a crying shame just how LITTLE professional basketball players know about playing "Basketball".  The league is full of gifted athletes who are tall, strong, and fast, but how many of them know how to really play.  I posted (during pre-season)the remark Larry Brown made to the media commenting on his roster saying something along the lines of, "...we're [coaching staff] are just trying to teach these guys how to play basketball".  A statement like that really struck home with me.  

[Guest_JoMal]

Once you get to the NBA, there is little patience to change the instincts of young players, and the players have little patience in relearning anything.

Its a crying shame just how LITTLE professional basketball players know about playing "Basketball".  The league is full of gifted athletes who are tall, strong, and fast, but how many of them know how to really play.  I posted (during pre-season)the remark Larry Brown made to the media commenting on his roster saying something along the lines of, "...we're [coaching staff] are just trying to teach these guys how to play basketball".  A statement like that really struck home with me.

That was me right above, for the uninitiated.

It certainly is odd that these kids do not seem to even try to learn some basics, and you know the coaches are trying. Adelman said an odd thing the other day. When asked what coaches should focus on, regarding the Kings, he said something like, "The coach here has to teach the concept of team defense", like he was talking about someone else.

Considering his lame duck status, maybe he was, but the point is, you have to figure the coaches here are constantly talking about team defense, but out on the court during the Kings' last game, you could see Artest yelling at his new teammates to talk to him about switches and if their man beats them on drives through the lane, so he knows to switch back. I like Artest's attitude about doing that, but why is he having to TELL them to communicate for crying out loud.

 

[Wolverine]

I think Joe brings up a good point about Utah.  I noticed earlier in the year that the Jazz were often standing around on the offensive end.  There was no movement, no passing, no *ACTION*.  And that makes for boring basketball, which is why Phoenix is so much fun to watch.  Run, run, run.  Hmm...that sounds an awful lot like the Showtime Lakers of the 80s.

One of the most common complaints I hear from non-NBA fans is that the league has become a one-on-one game.  That's great if you want to watch an outstanding young athlete take advantage of the new rules and star treatment afforded by the refs, but it won't attract people who enjoy the game of *basketball*.  I'll take the Slam Dunk contest for the solo, athletic feats.

I've come to watch a lot more of the NBA over the past two years, but this is due primarily to: 1) my involvement in the fantasy league, and 2) my discovery of several "favorite" players (thanks also to fantasy) who play on teams that are - gasp - fun to watch.  Amare with the Suns and  Big Ben with Pistons, just to name a few.  But if it's not the Suns, or Pistons, or Spurs playing, I just don't much care.  And it's because the game is slow and boring.

[westkoast]

Do you really think the coaches are dictating the isolation type offensive schemes?
 

I would say some have in the past.  Only because of a lack of offensive firepower on their team somewhat forces them to do so.  Or at least a lack of a bonafide play maker like Steve Nash or Jason Kidd to get easier looks for teammates.    The Orlando Magic use to do it when they had Tracy McGrady.  Toronto did it when Vince was on their squad.  Rudy T's offense last year was geared around isolation plays for Kobe.  I think the league is actually encouraging more of them to run that type of offense  if they have a player who can isolate defenders and break them down.

I do have to disagree about the princeton and triangle offense being shams.  *IF* the players knew the game better and had better fundamentals they would be pretty damn good sets.  Much better sets than just 'basic basketball'.  As you saw with the Kings and Lakers a few years ago  (Bulls in the past).  The spacing and cuts alone get you easier looks all around *IF* you move the ball to the correct spots and make nice passes...like  BOUNCE passes.  I feel like I just repeated myself lol.  

We should start counting how many players appear to forget about the bounce pass or ones who just cannot make the pass period.