Anyone catch the Laker/Heat game last night?

[Reality]

A few comments about the game:

 

awesome recap.  i cant type too much, on IR with finger.

George and Gs block a key.

For the Heat can Mourning still play or what.  looked great on d.

[msc]

For the Heat can Mourning still play or what.  looked great on d.

Mourning did look solid on D, much better than Shaq, that's for sure.  

 

[Skandery]

Time to re-visit some old posts, fellow Laker friends.  

Randy said:

I am rather interested in who you think needs to take those extra shots in LA -- Kwame Brown? Chris Mihm?

--from Kobe-Wan thread

Odom -- why is this guy so consistent. One time he is taking the ball to the rack like he is the greatest finisher in the game and the next play he looks like Greg Ostertag trying to attack the rim. I'd also like to see him focus more on defense.

Mihm -- a COMPLETE waste -- I'd rather see Bynum getting quality minutes than see Mihm blow the pass, the block, the shot, the dunk, the rebound, etc.

Slava is a waste of roster space. Walton, the guy is a crowd favorite and a tremendous passer and a smart basketball player but he needs MORE than that to help the Lakers. He is a defensive liability, has a slower first step than anyone in the NBA (well, at least any other SF) and he isn't consistent from outside. Basically, making him a waste of a roster spot as well.

--from Lakers v Nuggets, Opening day for Lakeshow thread

I think you are misunderstanding me -- it's not that I am stating that Bynum is a great player -- it's just that I think that Mihm and Brown are worthless.

Mihm and Brown are WASTES -- you aren't going to hurt them because they can't be hurt. Mihm would be a quality back-up center -- Brown is a waste of roster space.

--from Laker fans rejoice, Andrew Bryman is here! thread

I'm for this trade ONLY if it involves getting rid of Kwame Brown!

--from Artest to become a Laker thread

Medvendenko is already out for the year -- of course, will we ever miss him?

--from Ronny Turiaf to join Lakeshow thread

I would STILL like to see the Lakers add some pieces that would compliment Kobe's game

--from Kobe handles the Pretendor thread

Westkoast said:

--Lakers defense got a D- last night. They were not trapping like they were in the pre-season. They were not talking to one another which led to easy buckets and the transition defense was HORRID. Just to put into perspective how many dumb mistakes they made......there was one play where Brian Cook boxed out Chris Mihm which allowed Camby to grab a rebound and get a putback.

--from Lakers v Nuggets, Opening day for Lakeshow thread

Phil really would like to work Kwame into a better player than he is currently and has given him more time based on that. Does he deserve it? IMO no because ive yet to see 2 games where he has played very well.

--from Laker fans rejoice Andrew Bryman is here! thread

However, Kwame has improved since the sissie talk coming from PJ and Brian Shaw. He is hitting the boards twice as hard and while he still is still very out of control when he makes his moves to the rim he has learned how to softly shoot.

With that said, he still sucks

--from The Zenmeister on Kwame Brown thread

Kobe can be Batman as soon as Odom takes it upon himself to be the scoring 'robin'.

--from Did Kobe take a shot at Shaq? thread

Odom and Parker are 0 for 4 or 0 for 5 in that situation so far this year when Kobe hit them while they were open.

--from Kobe handles the Pretendor thread

WayOutWest said:

I don't care how well George played last night, I wish upon a star EVERY night that he was not a Laker.

Slava and Cook are a waste of a Laker roster spots.

Mihm works hard but he just doesn't have the talent. He will probably hold down the Laker starting C spot and that's just SAD. I think they need to throw the rook in there and see what happens.

--from Laker v Nuggets, Opening day for Lakeshow thread

I think back in the late 80's or early 90's the Lakers considered bringing on Dwane Causwell or Joe Barry Carrol. Well, we've got the 00's version of those guys NOW!

There is a difference and IMO Bryman is gonna suck, he may be the reincarnation of Mike Shmrek.

--from Laker fans rejoice Andrew Bryman is here! thread

Sounds like Kwame might challange Oberto for minutes played, or lack there of.

--from The Zenmeister on Kwame Brown thread

WTF?

That's like saying, I like to see how a NASCAR driver would do with a blind fold on and no steering wheel.

[WOW in response to westkoast wondering how Kobe's suspension would affect the team]

--from Kobe suspended for 2 games, stop the presses thread

He's still a dork, journeyman at BEST! He's a skinnier version of Oliver Miller.

--from Bynum, 3-3 fg, 3 boards in 5 min thread

Laker Fan Dan said

I see, in truth though, waving a towel and handing out Gatoraide is about is about all Kwame is good for.

-- from Bynum, 3-3 fg, 3 boards in 5 min thread

msc said

At this point I'd support a trade of Kwame for a box of Cheerios. They both have the same amount of low post moves, plus Cheerios have bigger, stronger hands.

--from the Artest to become a Laker thread

If it's truly between Sloffense and Profit, my vote is to let Sloffense go. This guy has some offensive skill, but in three years has never seemed to be able to grasp the triangle and has zero D skills.

--from Ronny Turiaf to join the Lakeshow thread

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of hate for Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm moreso than the others, but the sheer volume of what I found JUST in the last 90 days should speak volumes about your guys' collective respective for Lakers not name Kobe.  Its sad really!!

P.S. yeah westkoast, its a slow day for me at work, also.  Heck, I even put down sources.  
 

[westkoast]

Skander,

What are you proving by what I said other than I was being objective?  I am not sure exactly what you expect.  Am I suppose to call it how I see it or am I suppose to stay kissing Laker rear end regardless of the play of the team or individual player?  You want Laker posters to be objective about their team yet at the same time constantly praise them?  You cannot have both, I am sorry.  I call them how I see it so when I say that I've yet to see Kwame  put together two solid games that does not mean I think he is a horrible waste of life, it means I have yet to see him put together two solid games.  I guess I am not allowed to point out when my team plays poor defense nor are any Laker fans able to talk highly about the play of individuals against high caliber, championship bound teams.  Next time Utah sticks it to SA and wins by almost double digits I do not want to hear about how well Matt Harpring played that game because you have not brought him up in at least 10 posts prior  

So this is how you want it to be...

-Laker fans must be objective and steer clear of giving their team unwarranted props

-Laker fans must not say anything negative about the play of the team during a game because that makes Laker fans look like they dislike everyone on the team but Kobe

-Do not speak about Kobe having a good game if you are not going to dedicate at least 1 paragraph to how well George did in a 3 possesion stint where he blocked one shot and grabbed 2 flat footed rebounds.

-Sugar coat what happens in a game as to not look like you are speaking negativily about the team.  If the Lakers give up 75 dunks  in transition compliment them for stopping the other team from taking jump shots (regardless if they are getting dunks which keeps them from shooting jumpers)


You know I can always start posting in 'Fanhome poster' mode and just start blaiming everything on the refs so I can make sure I dont look silly by calling it how I see it.  Skander how many of those quotes were during skids where the Lakers lost?  Just curious because I know 3-4 of my quotes were when they were struggling, except the last 2.

[Laker Fan]

Wow!!!!! I think Msc and I got off pretty easy on that little walk down memory lane! Perhaps because of my infrequent posting of late, perhaps because you felt it unnecessary to reach too far back into the archives to dig up pieces of rope to create nooses for all of us poor backpedaling, waffling delusional Laker Fans, and in truth, you really didn't need to, you seemd to find plenty right here in the recent past.

However, allow me to take your negative spin off the point you were (failing) to make and give you something else to consider. We Laker fans are more objective, more critical, more analytical, and more balanced in our assessment of our team than you give us credit for, you paint us as disingeuous hypocrites. I offer up that we are, rather than disingeuous hypocrites, fluid and pliant in our assessment of our team and its prospects this year, as any fan should be. The very fact that injuries, development of team chemistry, refocus on and exploitation of individual talents making for a more well-rounded team effort, the improvement as the season progresses of various individuals, or the converse of all these aforementioned beneficial factors will cause the objective fan to modifiy his opinion of team prospects and individual players skills and abilities, or lack of same, either favorably or unfavorably as the situation dictates.

I see a group of fans who had doom and gloom to look forward to this season and who were more than willing to stand up like men and say so and have consistantly pointed out where this team needs to improve, what players need to improve and where and what players they see as liabilities and why. I also see a group of fans when they have something to cheer about, do so, and give props where props are due. It does not mean that we forgive all from players because they have one good game and we give them props for it and forget all our previously posted assessments, but whether you or anyone else on this board want to admit it or not, we all are surprised that this team is quietly playing well above their potential and defensively they are becoming a little scary for their opponents.

That being said, Kwame Brown is STILL a waste of roster space, Odom is STILL dreadfully inconsistant (but slowly improving), NO ONE has EVER said a disparaging thing about Smush Parker, Chris Mihm still frustrates us no end, we all wish Bynum would get more playing time, and WOW still wishes upon a star that Deavon George was not a Laker, despite his flashes of brilliance.

I stand by all my point in time assessments of any player/team/coach and reserve the right to modify my assessment of same as the situation warrants. The Lakers put up a great team effort the other night, and have been doing so for quite a nice little stretch here now, something to cheer about indeed. To give them props for that and criticise them for not doing the same thing on a consistant basis is nothing more than being objective in our assessment.

I think the Lakers are starting to gel a little, especially defensively, and not too shabbily offensively, Kobe's ballhogging notwithstanding. I am even grudgingly gaining some respect for Phil Jackson as coach rather than a personality manager because this is hardly a talent-laden team, and I think he has them playing over their heads right now. I changed my view of Jerry Sloan for the exact same reason.

[Joe Vancil]

Wow.  Who threw the gas on the fire?

For what it's worth, I think the seeming reacclimation to the Laker players from the Laker fans is in part a re-re-reaction to the success of the team.

The Laker team - coming into this year - was a big question mark.  

The Laker team started off well, then fell on hard times, then picked it back up.

The result of that fluctuation is different for different Lakers.

At the beginning of the season, Parker and Kobe were given too much credit, Vujacic and Odom were given too much grief.

During the Laker losing stretch, Kobe was given too much credit for what had happened prior, Vujacic was rated higher than he should be, and Parker fell out-of-favor although not into the doghouse, while Brown, Mihm, Bynum, Odom, and pretty much everyone else was a piece of trash.

Now, Parker is getting his proper due, as is Vujacic, while Kobe's getting more credit than he deserves, Odom is taking crap that he shouldn't have to take, Devean George and Brian Cook aren't being given their proper respect, but Mihm, Bynum, and Brown are being given more credit than they deserve.

The end result is that Parker is having his best year ever, Kobe's posting incredible scoring numbers, Vujacic is starting to look solid, Devean George is steady but not spectacular, Odom is really finding a way to fit in, Brown has been a disappointment, Bynum is still learning the game and developing, and Mihm is what he is - which isn't either studly or awful.  That tells me that people SHOULD be talking about the incredible job Phil Jackson has done.

I find it funny that no Laker fan has really given Odom his proper due, when, by all indications, he's having a VERY good year, and the Lakers are doing better than most would have expected.

Take a lot of this praise for Brown and Bynum, and send it over to Odom, with a good smidgen of it to Devean George.

In my opinion, the Lakers aren't that good of a team talent-wise, but they're really getting a lot of good from a mix of chemistry - plus a big lift from Kobe's scoring.  As a result, they're not a half bad team.  They're also getting a boost from the fact that people don't know how to deal with folks like Smush Parker, who've never played big roles anywhere before.  Expect that to wear off over time, but chemistry to keep building - unless someone does something really stupid to short-circuit it (ala Kwame Brown in Washington).

Kwame Brown is on his way to being the next Samaki Walker...Mihm, the next Benoit Benjamin.  But as Parker, Vujacic, Odom, George, and Bryant learn how to use these guys, they'll get you enough from them to keep the team from being awful.  But Brown, especially, needs to go.

[westkoast]

Wow.  Who threw the gas on the fire?
 

Fire?  I thought we were having fun going back and forth.  Guess I am the only one  :cry:

Joe I can speak for myself when I say I am extra critical of Odom because I think he can be such a great player when he fully applies himself.  I guess to others it sounds like I am not giving him credit but in reality I actually just think he the sky is the limit when it comes to his talent.  When I say shoot more I am not trying to knock him rather I WANT him to shoot more cuz I think he is much better than the guys guarding him (for the most part of course)

[Guest_Randy]

Randy said:

QUOTE 
I am rather interested in who you think needs to take those extra shots in LA -- Kwame Brown? Chris Mihm?

--from Kobe-Wan thread

Umm, where did I EVER say anything about wanting Brown to shoot the ball?  I said that Mihm is showing some moves -- and he has shown some recently but, at this point, I still think he is a solid role player -- nothing more.  I CERTAINLY don't want Kwame shooting the ball more -- his defense has improved but his offense still stinks -- want to debate that one?

QUOTE 
Odom -- why is this guy so consistent. One time he is taking the ball to the rack like he is the greatest finisher in the game and the next play he looks like Greg Ostertag trying to attack the rim. I'd also like to see him focus more on defense.

I think that should have been "inconsistent" rather than "consistent" -- and Odom HAS improved within the triangle offense.  As SEVERAL have already stated, Odom STILL needs to prove his consistency and come to play every time he hits the floor -- it's still easy for him to disappear -- you can't have a 2nd option that disappears (which is why I don't believe that he is a real #2 option).  And I STILL think his defense is lacking -- I think the Lakers are just compensating for him well as a team.

QUOTE 
Mihm -- a COMPLETE waste -- I'd rather see Bynum getting quality minutes than see Mihm blow the pass, the block, the shot, the dunk, the rebound, etc.

Okay, I'll admit I was wrong on this one -- whether it's the triangle, mentoring or whatever -- Mihm has definately improved.  He STILL needs to continue to improve on both ends of the court to be a legitimate threat on either end of the court.  Where would YOU rank Mihm, Skander, offensively and defensively?  And who else, besides Mihm and Bynum, do the Lakers have in the post?

QUOTE 
Slava is a waste of roster space. Walton, the guy is a crowd favorite and a tremendous passer and a smart basketball player but he needs MORE than that to help the Lakers. He is a defensive liability, has a slower first step than anyone in the NBA (well, at least any other SF) and he isn't consistent from outside. Basically, making him a waste of a roster spot as well.

Slava IS a waste of roster space -- the Lakers HAVE to have someone in the middle who can play defense and rebound the basketball.  Slava has had too many opportunities to prove himself and all he has done is prove that he can't do either of those things -- he can shoot the ball.  W

Walton's play speaks for itself -- he is a good bench player, smart basketball player but I think the Lakers are paying him more money than he is worth.


--from Lakers v Nuggets, Opening day for Lakeshow thread

QUOTE 
I think you are misunderstanding me -- it's not that I am stating that Bynum is a great player -- it's just that I think that Mihm and Brown are worthless.

I've already covered several of these next quotes.

QUOTE 
Mihm and Brown are WASTES -- you aren't going to hurt them because they can't be hurt. Mihm would be a quality back-up center -- Brown is a waste of roster space. 

--from Laker fans rejoice, Andrew Bryman is here! thread

QUOTE 
I'm for this trade ONLY if it involves getting rid of Kwame Brown!

--from Artest to become a Laker thread

Seems like someone is trying to make TOO much of Kwame!  Did you check his stats?  Kind of makes my point for me, doesn't it?

QUOTE 
Medvendenko is already out for the year -- of course, will we ever miss him? 

--from Ronny Turiaf to join Lakeshow thread

Can YOU name ANYTHING Slava has done for the Lakers this year?  Please!!!  Have you even watched the Lakers games this year?

QUOTE 
I would STILL like to see the Lakers add some pieces that would compliment Kobe's game

--from Kobe handles the Pretendor thread

Umm, are the Lakers suddenly a contender for an NBA Title Championship?  Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.  The Lakers won't win their division much less have a shot at a championship -- will they make it past the first round?  I'd like to think so but I think it depends on who they play and I have my doubts.  So DON'T the Lakers need some additional pieces?  Do you REALLY think that Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown are the answer to the Lakers post offensive and defensive games?  I sure hope not!

[msc]

This is fun.  

Dan: excellent post.  

Skander: thanks for digging up those posts.  I'll stand by mine; however, I'm hopeful that Kwame can win me over.  He already has started to with his improved defense and rebounding over the last several weeks.  I like the way Phil and the coaching staff are handling Kwame.  They're just asking him to focus on rebounding and defense and not put pressure on himself to score.  So far, he seems to be responding.  Hopefully, at a certain point he'll gain some confidence and show it on the offensive end.  We don’t need this guy to go for 20 pts a night, but 10/10 would be ideal.  I think I can speak for every Laker fan on the board when I say that we would love to eat our words regarding Kwame.  Please Kwame, prove us wrong ... please!  

Joe: great assessment of the perceptions/misperceptions of the players and team so far this season.  I agree with much of what you stated, with the exception that Kobe is getting too much credit right now.  I have to give him credit for basically carrying the team over the finish line during these last three games (Cleveland, Golden State, and Miami).  He has scored when the team has needed buckets down the stretch and done it for the most part within the structure of the offense and a decent shooting %.   I also agree that people have to start giving Phil credit for getting these guys, who are the second youngest team in the league and not stacked with talent to start to gel and utilize their strengths.  That, and they've improved from 29th in the league to I think 9th or 10th in defense.  That alone deserves a lot of merit.  Your Samaki Walker comparison to Kwame was hilariously accurate … unfortunately.  Prove us wrong, Kwame!

westkoast:  I feel the same way you do about Odom.  I think we both see night in and night out that this guy has the tools to be something really special.  He has had a good season, doing just about everything the coaching staff has asked of him, but I'd like to see him be more aggressive on the offensive end.  I'm not saying jack up 30 shots like he's Kobe, but sometimes he will go for a qtr or almost an entire half without taking a shot.  That can't happen!  Also, and this goes for the entire team, but particularly Odom, take less 3's!!  He hit a couple to start the night last night and that got him going, but that is not his game.  He's better when he gets in the paint and uses his length to get a shot off or create an assist for a teammate near the basket.
 

[Skandery]

Fire? I thought we were having fun going back and forth. Guess I am the only one

Don't you know, westkoast, I always have fun going back and forth with all you crazy Laker fans.  Truth be told, you guys are more objective, as a whole, than the regular run of crazed purple-n-gold fanatics.  I wasn't trying to pick on any of you but I was being accused on this thread of "not reading any of your guys' post".  And I was merely emphasizing that not only do I read them, I remember them.  

Joe, I think your post was spot on for the most part.  It seems that when things are sour in Laker-land; the party line is "Kobe can't do everything by himself, bless his heart, he needs some players on his team".  When things are all gravy it turns to "Kobe is really impressive working within the scheme of the triangle, and the players are starting to get comfortable with it and they're playing defense, now."  You see in both scenario's, Kobe isn't at fault.  That's always going to rub me the wrong way.  Doesn't seem like anyone is as quick to compliment a Laker other than Kobe, while being slower to criticize Kobe than other Lakers.  

As far as Odom goes, I still think he's having a wonderful year.  Numbers don't tell the whole story but:

14.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 5.6 apg, 46% FG, 1.0 spg, 1.0 bpg ain't too shabby.

Now I agree that he tends to get pensive for stretches but I'm going to give Kobe as much blame as I'll give Odom.  There is such a focus on Kobe offensively (which I realize is necessary sometimes) that its hard to stay aggressive all 39 minutes Odom is on the floor.  Its also interesting that a lot of the criticism Odom gets was similar to the criticism Pippen got with those early 90s Bulls teams that were so Jordan-focused.  And yes I agree, Odom has the talent to have had a better career than he's shown thus far, but he's started to come around the last few years.  

Randy:

Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.

Can you post where I did that.    

Laker Fan:

Wow!!!!! I think Msc and I got off pretty easy on that little walk down memory lane! Perhaps because of my infrequent posting of late, perhaps because you felt it unnecessary to reach too far back into the archives to dig up pieces of rope to create nooses for all of us poor backpedaling, waffling delusional Laker Fans, and in truth, you really didn't need to, you seemd to find plenty right here in the recent past.

Yeah, you guys did get off easy which tells me only one thing.  You guys need to post more.  You know Laker Fan, I enjoy your rebuttals, in fact there's a little part of me that just searches for things like this to rile you out of the shadows.  One question, why is your respect for Phil gained grudgingly, (another fantastic vocab word, BTW) I thought you were a Phil Jackson fan?

[Guest_Randy]

Randy:

QUOTE 
Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.

Can you post where I did that.

The same place I posted most of the stuff that you made up.  My conclusion is based on the same though progression that you used:

Mihm showed some moves -- means that he is suddenly a gifted offensive player.

Brown played solid D means that he is suddenly a quality role player.

And then comments that I never made -- Parker, etc.


Odom deserves his criticism just like Kobe does.  If you haven't read any criticism of Kobe here then you need to do a bit more reading.  

One post that I noticed that you DIDN'T quote of mine:

1) Okay, Kobe, I'm glad you showed up to play offense but how about playing a little D as well. Kobe went through screens like he didn't care if Wade got to shoot a lay-up. It was good to see Kobe score most of his points within the scheme of the offense rather than freelancing.

I'm sure you didn't miss this comment -- just didn't fit with your soapbox, huh?

[Guest_Randy]

Fire? I thought we were having fun going back and forth. Guess I am the only one

Don't you know, westkoast, I always have fun going back and forth with all you crazy Laker fans.  Truth be told, you guys are more objective, as a whole, than the regular run of crazed purple-n-gold fanatics.  I wasn't trying to pick on any of you but I was being accused on this thread of "not reading any of your guys' post".  And I was merely emphasizing that not only do I read them, I remember them.  

Joe, I think your post was spot on for the most part.  It seems that when things are sour in Laker-land; the party line is "Kobe can't do everything by himself, bless his heart, he needs some players on his team".  When things are all gravy it turns to "Kobe is really impressive working within the scheme of the triangle, and the players are starting to get comfortable with it and they're playing defense, now."  You see in both scenario's, Kobe isn't at fault.  That's always going to rub me the wrong way.  Doesn't seem like anyone is as quick to compliment a Laker other than Kobe, while being slower to criticize Kobe than other Lakers.  

As far as Odom goes, I still think he's having a wonderful year.  Numbers don't tell the whole story but:

14.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 5.6 apg, 46% FG, 1.0 spg, 1.0 bpg ain't too shabby.

Now I agree that he tends to get pensive for stretches but I'm going to give Kobe as much blame as I'll give Odom.  There is such a focus on Kobe offensively (which I realize is necessary sometimes) that its hard to stay aggressive all 39 minutes Odom is on the floor.  Its also interesting that a lot of the criticism Odom gets was similar to the criticism Pippen got with those early 90s Bulls teams that were so Jordan-focused.  And yes I agree, Odom has the talent to have had a better career than he's shown thus far, but he's started to come around the last few years.  

Randy:

Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.

Can you post where I did that.    

Laker Fan:

Wow!!!!! I think Msc and I got off pretty easy on that little walk down memory lane! Perhaps because of my infrequent posting of late, perhaps because you felt it unnecessary to reach too far back into the archives to dig up pieces of rope to create nooses for all of us poor backpedaling, waffling delusional Laker Fans, and in truth, you really didn't need to, you seemd to find plenty right here in the recent past.

Yeah, you guys did get off easy which tells me only one thing.  You guys need to post more.  You know Laker Fan, I enjoy your rebuttals, in fact there's a little part of me that just searches for things like this to rile you out of the shadows.  One question, why is your respect for Phil gained grudgingly, (another fantastic vocab word, BTW) I thought you were a Phil Jackson fan?

Hmm, I'm not sure that ANY Laker fan here is a fan of PJ -- we definately respect what he has done (and is doing) with the Lakers but that doesn't make us "fans" of him personally.

There have been many who have commented on the fact that PJ isn't a good coach, he just has been surrounded by talent -- umm, couldn't you say that about Russell, Magic, Worthy, Isaiah, McHale, etc.?  

PJ has proven the doubter wrong -- however, I have stated several reasons why I can't ever be a fan of PJ:

-  His stupid comments that have one purpose -- to offend (see SacTown).  I like a good barb in jest -- I don't like insults.

-  The way he plays mind games -- he even does this with his OWN players!   :puke:

-  He didn't help the problems between Shaq and Kobe -- mainly because, IMO, his ego is as huge as both of these guys.  I think he could have helped but he didn't and I think that was his job!

[Skandery]

Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.

Can you post where I did that.

The same place I posted most of the stuff that you made up. My conclusion is based on the same though progression that you used:

Mihm showed some moves -- means that he is suddenly a gifted offensive player.

Brown played solid D means that he is suddenly a quality role player.

And then comments that I never made -- Parker, etc.

Soooooooooo, you can't post where I did that.  :rolleyes:

1) Okay, Kobe, I'm glad you showed up to play offense but how about playing a little D as well. Kobe went through screens like he didn't care if Wade got to shoot a lay-up. It was good to see Kobe score most of his points within the scheme of the offense rather than freelancing.

I'm sure you didn't miss this comment -- just didn't fit with your soapbox, huh?

You're right I didn't miss this comment but addressed it in my post with this particular tidbit.

Doesn't seem like anyone is as quick to compliment a Laker other than Kobe, while being slower to criticize Kobe than other Lakers.

...meaning that its not unheard of for you to criticize Kobe, just doesn't happen as quick or as often.

 

PJ has proven the doubter wrong -- however, I have stated several reasons why I can't ever be a fan of PJ:

Yeah you're right on those points.  I think somewhere along the line, Phil started buying into his own press, The Great and Wonderful Zenmeister and all that non-sense.  He went from being aloof and intelligent to being derogotory and manipulative.  Still knows how to coach, though.    
 

 

[Guest_Randy]

Wow, no WONDER you think we should be giving the Lakers cast more props -- you have them pitted against Detroit, SA, Phoenix, etc.

Can you post where I did that.

The same place I posted most of the stuff that you made up. My conclusion is based on the same though progression that you used:

Mihm showed some moves -- means that he is suddenly a gifted offensive player.

Brown played solid D means that he is suddenly a quality role player.

And then comments that I never made -- Parker, etc.

Soooooooooo, you can't post where I did that.  :rolleyes:

1) Okay, Kobe, I'm glad you showed up to play offense but how about playing a little D as well. Kobe went through screens like he didn't care if Wade got to shoot a lay-up. It was good to see Kobe score most of his points within the scheme of the offense rather than freelancing.

I'm sure you didn't miss this comment -- just didn't fit with your soapbox, huh?

You're right I didn't miss this comment but addressed it in my post with this particular tidbit.

Doesn't seem like anyone is as quick to compliment a Laker other than Kobe, while being slower to criticize Kobe than other Lakers.

...meaning that its not unheard of for you to criticize Kobe, just doesn't happen as quick or as often.

 

PJ has proven the doubter wrong -- however, I have stated several reasons why I can't ever be a fan of PJ:

Yeah you're right on those points.  I think somewhere along the line, Phil started buying into his own press, The Great and Wonderful Zenmeister and all that non-sense.  He went from being aloof and intelligent to being derogotory and manipulative.  Still knows how to coach, though.

We can play this kind of game all day long -- in fact, I could make these SAME comments about you and your comments about AK47.

I'm sitting here looking at some of the numbers for my boy, AK-47 and the Utah Jazz and its getting ridiculous.

Let's look at Jazz wins vs. losses when he's in and when he's out.

He started the year by playing the first 7 games, the Jazz went 4 and 3.

He then injured his ankle and missed the next 7 games, the Jazz went 2 and 5.

He then came back for 10 games, the Jazz went 5 and 5.
[sidenote: he came off the bench the first 6 games (2-4), started the next 4 games (3-1)]

He then had back spasms for the next three games, the Jazz went 0 and 3.

He's been back for the last 9 games (41 mpg), the Jazz are 8 and 1.

With Kirilenko: 17-9 .654 win pct.
W/O Kirilenko: 2-8 .200 win pct.

They are the only team that's undefeated playing the Pistons (2-0), surpisingly, AK-47s played both those games, his numbers:

45 mpg, 23 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 7 apg, 3 bpg, 4/6 3P%, 17/34 FG%

During the recent 8-1 streak, his numbers:

19 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 3.3 bpg, 8/18 3P%, 52/101 FG%, 58/73 FT%.

Where's the props for the rest of the Jazz team?  Okur especially!  This guy is having a CAREER year.  And while AK57 is obviously a key factor for the Jazz I would submit that so is Okur.  In last nights win, AK57 had a triple-double (his first, I believe) but here is Okur's statline:  29 points, 11 of 17 from the field (65%), 1 of 2 3 pt (50%), 6 of 6 from the line (100%), 6 reb, 6 ass, and 1 blk.  I'd contend that while the Jazz couldn't have won that game without AK57 -- they also couldn't have won that game without Okur.  In fact, while your stats show how the Jazz have done without AK57 -- they fail to show the importance of Okur to the Jazz team -- I'd contend that Okur is almost as important to the Jazz as AK57 -- but yet you give him no credit?   :cry:  :cry:

And let me remind YOU of YOUR comment:

Kirilenko plays with a far less talented roster than Kobe does.

Hmm, Okur, Harpring, Giricek, Williams, Boozer -- yeah, these guys are JUNK huh?  I'd rather have Okur on my squad than ANY player the Lakers have other than Kobe!  Want to make a swap?  Some of these guys have had GREAT years (see Harpring and Boozer) with other squads and yet you deem them as junk.  You need to start taking a dose of your own medicine.

Let's see - how about a couple of trades -- straight up:
  Mihm for Okur
  Kwame for Boozer
  George for Harpring

Sound good?

[westkoast]

It seems that when things are sour in Laker-land; the party line is "Kobe can't do everything by himself, bless his heart, he needs some players on his team". When things are all gravy it turns to "Kobe is really impressive working within the scheme of the triangle, and the players are starting to get comfortable with it and they're playing defense, now." You see in both scenario's, Kobe isn't at fault. That's always going to rub me the wrong way. Doesn't seem like anyone is as quick to compliment a Laker other than Kobe, while being slower to criticize Kobe than other Lakers.

Skander, that is partially you assuming what we are saying (for example if someone says Lakers need another scorer it doesnt automatically mean Kobe cant do everything bless his soul, it could mean he scores too much and there needs to be more balance )  and partially because the whole team has not been that consistant.  I think their record and margins they have lost have shown that.  The Lakers are 12-11 this year in games decided by 6 points or less.  Most of those losses are coming because of a lack of consitancy down the stretch.  Its not even just Odom or just Kobe...its the entire team because I know 8 of those loses are because of team defense.   Granted its a young team but I am going to be critical regardless.  So of course there is going to be an up and down with the team who is hovering around .500.   When a certain poster feels the need to constantly bring them up in every thread you tend to get comments coming off a losing streak (like from x-mas day all the way till Jan 8th during a 5 game skid) and comments comming off a winning streak (like now where the lakers won 6 of 7).  See Randy's comment about you giving props to AK.  While to you I know you are just pointing out some stats to show how important AK is, how is that any different than when a Laker fan does something similar?  AK is the most consistant player on that team so its easier to point things out he does good on a regular basis than say a Mr. Okur.  That doesnt mean you think Okur is worthless it just means you are pointing something out.  No hidden motives, just like I have no hidden motives.

Can I ask you this tho?  When I say 'they played very bad team defense' does that not include Kobe to you?  Hopefully it is slow today and you can search to see all the times I have made mention of the Lakers defense.  You won't see me complain too much about offense, other than I believe Odom should be more selfish cuz I think he has all the talent in the world.  What you will see me make mention of is their defense.   There is one quote in particular you pulled from one of the threads but skipped that one where I said

"My favorite stat of the night:

Lakers ranked 10th in defense"

I've only brought up the fact they a above-average defensive team say 10 times in the last month or so.   That is talking about the entire team and not just saying Rah Rah Kobe Rah Rah.  I've been critical of Kobe taking too many shots, while at the same time trying to explain to those who dont catch all the games how one game he has 10 extra shots and another he doesnt.

I could make long winded essays each time the Lakers play and go into detail every little bit of the game but I try to keep it short and simple because we have alot of Laker posters who will go into detail on different things and I dont want to try to overload the board with Laker talk.  Obviously it happens either way so I guess I am not doing a good job .   Kinda hard to do when a certain poster who shall remain nameless  feels the need to bring up the Lakers in every single one of his posts.