Iverson will become # 50 on the all-time

[Rickortreat]

Career scoring list today, meaning that only 49 people in the entire history of the league has managed to score as many.  

Considering that he's only 30 and having his best year and could conceivable do this for another couple of years is really amazing.

John Stockton is at 30 on the all-time list with 19,711.  AI currently has 17,950.  At the rate he scores, he should pass John sometime next season.

He owns the third highest scoring average in history, following only Chamberlain and his Airness.  There are only 6 players who have scored more than 50 10 times ever in the league.  AI is one of them and all the others have retired.  They're very good company to be in: Chamberlain did it 118 times, much higher than anyone else.  Then Jordan (31) Elgin Baylor (17) Rick Barry (14) and Jabbar (10).

Kobe hasn't done it and neither has T-Mac or Lebron or Wade.  

AI has also led the league in steals 3 times in his career.

If his team was doing any better, he'd be considered a strong candidate for MVP honors.

Name another guard that can do what Iverson has done.  Is he the 2nd best guard of all-time trailing only MJ?  

[Joe Vancil]

See my condemnation of Kobe Bryant in the other thread, and substitute Allen Iverson's name in it.

In front of Iverson as a guard, I'd take:

Magic Johnson
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Tiny Archibald
Michael Jordan
Bob Cousy

Oh - and before I forget, every player on that list has more Finals Appearances than Iverson.

OF COURSE Iverson is among the top scorers of all times.  The man never met a shot he'd pass up.

 

[guest-koast]

Rick, are you asking if hes the second best guard scoring wise behind Mike?  Cuz I think a case could be made for him being one of the best.  He def is one of the very best slashers I've ever seen.  When you take into account he is much smaller than the other great 2-guards in history I think you have to give him extra points for that.

Of course Iverson never has seen a shot he doesn't like, he is a very confident person and is one hell of a scorer.  Alot of people talk about him taking too many shots but fail to realize that it is part of the gameplan because the coaching staff feels that is the way the team should go to have the best chance.

[Derek Bodner]

There is no way you'll convince me that Jason Kidd, Gary Payton and Isiah Thomas are/were better players than Iverson.  None.

[rickortreat]

That's fine Joe, except that you're being completly unreasonable.  If Iverson is a ball hog, how is it that he manages to be 7th in the league in Assists and is shooting over 45% from the field?  That is what an all-star does, along with being 5th in steals.

Yes, all of those other players played in more finals, but that's a reflection on their teamates.  Just how great would Magic look running with Samuel Dalembert and Chris Webber?  

AI's playoff stats are comparable to those other players you've listed.  Better in fact, than most.

The only ones I'd want ahead of AI all time are MJ and maybe Oscar.  I'd agree that Magic was a better passer and rebounder, but not as good a scorer.  In most instances, you want someone who can light it up night in and out, so AI gets the nod.  I'd also like to point out that all of these guys are taller than AI.

But the rest of the players on your list just don't match up on an individual level.  West never scored like AI, and neither did Isiah.  Tiny did it, but not for as many years. Gary Payton and Jason Kidd don't even belong on the list and and neither does Stockton.  Statistically, it's not even close.



 

[guest-koast]

Assists generate points Rick and since they were generating easier buckets for other people I do not see how Magic is not up there simply because his scoring average was lower.  His assists were double what AIs are in his career.

I dont see how John Stockton isnt anywhere on the list either because he has alot of points and alot of assists.

[westkoast]

Whoops shoulda logged in so I could edit my posts......

Magic doesn't have as much individual talent as AI?   The guy could play 4 positions and was one of the greatest on the court leaders in the game.  

Maybe Oscar? MAYBE?!  Are you serious?  Just a maybe for Oscar Robinson?!

I really hope you are speaking about purely scoring and not all around play and individual talent because you are overlooking people for no apparent reason other than bias towards your favorite player.

[Joe Vancil]

Total assists is a misleading stat.  If you touch the ball every time down the court, you had *BETTER* get a ton of assists - ala Stephon Marbury.  Folks like Kobe Bryant rack up assists - is it because they're such great passers?  No.  It's because that when you've got the ball THAT OFTEN, you *SHOULD* get a good number of assists - ESPECIALLY if you're the kind of player who routine draws double- and triple-teams.

Don't get me wrong - I think Iverson is a gifted passer.  But I think he underutilizes that gift, and, to a large extent, is rated far more highly than he should be.  

Iverson's greatest asset isn't his scoring, or his defense (which I believe is very underrated), or his passing:  it's his heart.  The guy leaves it all on the court, and I respect that.  But that in no way contradicts the idea that the guy is a selfish, selfish player.

 

[Reality]

Total assists is a misleading stat.  If you touch the ball every time down the court, you had *BETTER* get a ton of assists - ala Stephon Marbury.  Folks like Kobe Bryant rack up assists - is it because they're such great passers?  No.  It's because that when you've got the ball THAT OFTEN, you *SHOULD* get a good number of assists - ESPECIALLY if you're the kind of player who routine draws double- and triple-teams.

Don't get me wrong - I think Iverson is a gifted passer.  But I think he underutilizes that gift, and, to a large extent, is rated far more highly than he should be.  

Iverson's greatest asset isn't his scoring, or his defense (which I believe is very underrated), or his passing:  it's his heart.  The guy leaves it all on the court, and I respect that.  But that in no way contradicts the idea that the guy is a selfish, selfish player.

True awll dat.

I have seen the good A.I. pass up a storm and the bad A.I. gun up a storm.

However, it has to be said his recieving teamates have bundled many a would be assist.

Look at the teamates your list had Joe.  A.I.'s dont compare.
 

[Joe Vancil]

That's right.  I forget those absolute studs like Rick Mahorn, Greg Ostertag, Jim McIlvayne, Ervin Johnson, and Todd Macculloch.

Bottom line is that you don't get to choose your teammates, but you do have to get something out of them.  Good players make that happen - bad players don't, and point out their deficiencies.

Stockton managed to get points out of people like Mark Eaton for years.  Try telling me that Dikembe Mutombo, Theo Ratliff, and Samuel Dalembert were more offensively limited.

Or look at Kenyon Martin's stock WITH Jason Kidd and SINCE Jason Kidd.

Or look at the difference between Keith Van Horn with Kidd and with Iverson.

Raja Bell was a defense-only Sixer.  Nash gets points out of him.  Harpring wasn't even that for Philadelphia, but in one season with Stockton, there was question whether he should go to the All-Star game or not.

While it's wonderful to have players like Tyrone Hill and George Lynch who are willing to do the dirty work and get none of the credit, it doesn't take long of giving them none of the credit to get them to stop doing all the dirty work.

And which is it - is it that Dalembert, Iguodala, Korver, and Webber just plain suck offensively, or is it that they need to get the ball on occasion - or at least, on MORE occasions - to show what offensive prowess they do have?

[Derek Bodner]

Joe, what players has Iverson ever held back?

Larry Hughes?  Hughes per minute scoring average was very good, especially for a guy his age.  Hughes didn't get minutes because he frustrated Larry Brown.  He got traded because of Larry Brown.

Stackhouse?  On the court, Iverson/Stack worked offensively.  Stack averaged 19.2 ppg the year before Iverson.  20.7 ppg the only year the two played together full time.  His career scoring average was 20.4 ppg.  Stack got 16.2 fga's/game that year, his career average is 16.1 per game.

Tim Thomas?  Please.  Toni Kukoc?  Again, Toni's per minute scoring average in Philly was good.  He didn't get minutes because Larry Brown didn't like his defense.

Keith Van Horn?  The Keith Van Horn who's the 7th man on the mavericks?  Keith had a good year here.

Glenn Robinson?  The Glenn Robinson that's out of the league?  Glenn was banished by Jim O'brien for defense, not offense.

Iverson FINALLY got a #2 option in Chris Webber.  The results?  an overwhelming success.  The 76ers are #2 in the league in ppg and top 5 in the league in fg%, 3rd in the league in 3pt%, 2nd in the league in offensive efficiency.  And that's with a gimpy Chris Webber who at times doesn't look like he can jump over a phonebook and has less lateral mobility than my 70 year old grandmother.  And that's being done on a team that outside of Chris Webber only has 1 other legitimate offensive player, Kyle Korver (alright, maybe Lee Nailon is legitimate, but he doesn't get in most games).

Individually, Chris Webber's producing.  He's getting his shots, nearly 19/game (career average 18.8/game).  He's not holding Chris back.

I ask this every time the Iverson ball hog discussion comes up.  Who's he holding back?  Shavlik Randolph?  Michael Bradley?

[westkoast]

I have to side with DB on this one and wonder who exactly is Iverson holding back?  You want your star player and someone who can slash like Iverson taking alot of shots per game.  Passing is not always an option.  Some guys just hesitate to take shots and if the defensive pressure of the other team gets the Sixers deep into the clock who ends up with a low pct% shot? Allen Iverson.    Now dont take that as me giving guys like AI and Kobe passes for not dishing the ball on certain nights.  It is important to share the ball especially if you command a double team like AI does.  If Iverson has Steve Nash guarding him do you want him taking alot of shots?  Yes, yes you do.  If Iverson is doubled by Raja and Steve Nash do you want him to take alot of shots? No.  If Iverson is on that night you want him to shoot.  If that mean he takes 30 shots, he takes 30 shots.  You will live by it.  Sometimes I wonder why Wilt, Gail Goodrich, etc never get the flack of scoring too much as someone like AI does.  

Another reason why assists are some times misleading stats is because AI could be dishing the ball the entire night but if the Sixers are shooting 35% as a team if you were to just check the box score you would wonder why Iverson took 30 shots but only had 2 assists.  Guys actually do have to make buckets for you to get an assist.  Not everyone runs the break like Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, or Steve Nash where they dish the ball in transition for a layup.  AI actually has to do things like split a double team and then a guy like Korver still needs to make the 3.

Still to stay somewhat on topic here.....to say that only Mike Jordan is up there with AI as all time guards is a joke and sounds like someone crack smoking bums say at the local LA bus stop.

[Derek Bodner]

Let's look at Joe's examples

Raja Bell was a defense-only Sixer

Raja Bell was a diamond in the rough player when found by the 76ers.  It was his first NBA experience.  His only full season with the team he got 12 mpg, 3.4 ppg.  Extrapolate that out to 38.2 mpg (this year) and he gets 10.8 ppg.  This year he gets 11.75 shots/game.  His first full year with the 76ers extrapolated to 38.2 mpg he would have gotten  10.3 shots in that time.  Not a huge difference, especially considering that was essentially his first year in the league.  Makes sense he'd do better (and only 1 shot/game more) in his 6th year, no?

Or look at the difference between Keith Van Horn with Kidd and with Iverson.

Yes, let's look.

KVH had 14.8 ppg on 43.3% shooting in New Jersey, and was losing his position and minutes to Richard Jefferson.  Keith Van Horn had 15.9 pts on 48.2% shooting (career high) with Allen Iverson.  KVH's best years came BEFORE Jason Kidd.

the ONLY legitimate example I can think of is Matt Harpring.  But people forget to realize that Matt Harpring HAD A CAREER HIGH IN PPG the year he played in Philly up to that point.  Matt Harpring grew as a player, and went to a system that fit his game perfectly.

And which is it - is it that Dalembert, Iguodala, Korver, and Webber just plain suck offensively, or is it that they need to get the ball on occasion - or at least, on MORE occasions - to show what offensive prowess they do have?

As I just said, Webber gets more shots per game than his career average.  Dalembert sucks offensively, absolutely.  Iguodala's a very inconsistent player, he's only in the last two weeks started to show some consistency offensively.  If you've watched much of Andre play, you'll see HIM pass up shots.  It's not that he doesn't get the ball, it's that he's hesitant.  He's admitted that he looks for other peoples shots more than his own.

Kyle is what he is.  a great catch and shoot player.  His only other offensive option is to post up when he has guys on him 6'4" or less.  Need proof of that?  Look at his 3pta/fga ratio.  Gotta be the highest in the league.  Do you think he should be getting more 3pta's?