Its Time for everyone's Dirk Nowitzki Update

[westkoast]

Well, since there are only 14 power forwards that average more than 1 block per game (and Dirk averages .97) I would say that he is definately average for a starting NBA power forward in that department.


1   Elton   Brand   LAC   2.59
2   Pau   Gasol   MEM   2.37
3   Jermaine   O'Neal   IND   2.33
4   Tim   Duncan   SAS   2.31
5   Emeka   Okafor   CHA   1.92
6   Kevin   Garnett   MIN   1.52
7   Rasheed   Wallace   DET   1.52
8   Dwight   Howard   ORL   1.41
9   Kenyon   Martin   DEN   1.17
10   Chris   Andersen   NOK   1.17
11   Kurt   Thomas   PHX   1.13
12   Tyson   Chandler   CHI   1.07
13   Raef   LaFrentz   BOS   1.03
14   Chris   Bosh   TOR   1.03
15   Dirk   Nowitzki   DAL   0.97

I thought he is a top 5 player and a good defender?

Emeka Okafor, Pau Gasol,  Chris Bosh, Raef Lafrenztz, Dwight Howard, Kurt Thomas?!?!?!  All far from good defenders.  As fasr as athletic ability at that spot...who has more athletic ability at the PF than Dirk aside from the obvious few?  This is what I am getting at, so he is on average with a bunch of average players?  He is more gifted than them therefore he should be a MUCH better defender.  He has speed and heigth yet falls short....why?  Of course when you compare him to average players he is going to look like hes on par with the crew.  You are arguing hes top 5 remember?!  

Do I need to say more?

[WayOutWest]

Gasol and Okafur are surprises.

I think you're missing the point westkoast, I think what Lurker is trying to say is Dirk is in the top 5 of the top 20 inversely.  :mellow:  

[Skandery]

He has speed and heigth yet falls short....why?

So did Chris Mihm...
So did Marcus Fizer...
So did Michael Olowokandi

Koast, you keep arguing that Dirk should be better because he's got so much speed and height, hate to burst your bubble but it takes more than speed and height to be a good defender.  To play correct defense you have to learn from great defensive coaches and have the natural defensive awareness to take advantage of opportunities.  Who were his coaches in Germany...??  Something tells me they weren't on par with the Pat Riley's, George Karl's, and Larry Brown's of the world.  I have also repeatedly stated that Dirk isn't a naturally gifted defender blessed with the defensive awareness of Ben Wallace or Andrei Kirilenko.  He has improved and continues to improve his defense, coupled with being an offensive dynamo its enough for me to consider him Top 5 -- no question.      

[westkoast]

He has speed and heigth yet falls short....why?

So did Chris Mihm...
So did Marcus Fizer...
So did Michael Olowokandi

Koast, you keep arguing that Dirk should be better because he's got so much speed and height, hate to burst your bubble but it takes more than speed and height to be a good defender.  To play correct defense you have to learn from great defensive coaches and have the natural defensive awareness to take advantage of opportunities.  Who were his coaches in Germany...??  Something tells me they weren't on par with the Pat Riley's, George Karl's, and Larry Brown's of the world.  I have also repeatedly stated that Dirk isn't a naturally gifted defender blessed with the defensive awareness of Ben Wallace or Andrei Kirilenko.  He has improved and continues to improve his defense, coupled with being an offensive dynamo its enough for me to consider him Top 5 -- no question.

Chris Mihm, Olowokandi, and Marcus Fizer all do not have the speed Dirk does.  From end to end he is the fastest big man in the league.  On top of that with the way he moves on offense, he has better cordination then all those guys above combined.  I know some big men have problems rotating and moving because of how akward they feel due to size, just look at Shawn Bradley.  Dirk does not have that excuse to fall back on when he is running from the top of the key slicing through defenders for a lay up.  Mihm, Olawakandi, and Fizer do not do that.

To play  good D you need to rotate well (which Dirk does not do well)

You need to react quickly to what the offense of the other team is doing (which Dirk does not do well but has the speed to do so)

You need to be aggressive on the defense glass (Which Dirk is not)

You also need to be able to help out your team in the post when you are a 7 footer...which he does not.  You do not need the defensive instinct of AK to understand that when Marquis Daniels is being backed down by Lamar Odom in the post you should come from the weak to the strong to spike the ball.  My great grandfather knows that.  

Dirk is playing under Avery Johnson who learned his defense from probably the best defensive coach in recent NBA history.  What more can you ask for?  Okay so in Germany he didnt have great defensive coaches...what is the excuse for the last few years as Avery was in charge of the defense when he was under Nelly?  And now he is the head coach and I have yet to see him make leaps on bounds in that department in the last few years.

What I am arguing is the fact that  Dirk is more gifted athletically and in the heigth department than most of the other PFs in the league.   That  gives him an advantage in things like rotation and rebounding.   Or at least it should.   There is no excuse for poor rotation on defense when you can out run shooting guards.  There is also no excuse for poor transition defense when you can out run shooting guards.   Sounds to me like you and Lurker are saying mentally he is not a good defender.....thats worse than not being able to defend because of athletic/physical limitations IMO.

[Lurker]

Well, my point on the blocks was that he is right at average for PFs (ranked 14th of 30 starters) in the NBA.  Better than half the starters.  It was not to say that blocks is the only measure of defense.  I already posted that he collects more rebounds than his opponent so there is another measure that says his defense is at worse average but most likely above average.

But basically if he isn't top 5 in various categories then he is a poor defender.  At least I have used statistical evidence to show he is an above average defender.  All I hear in response is subjective observations..."he doesn't rotate well", "for his speed & height he should be better".

Bring some hard evidence not observations based on watching the 2001 playoffs to support your position that he is a poor defender.

[westkoast]

Well, my point on the blocks was that he is right at average for PFs (ranked 14th of 30 starters) in the NBA.  Better than half the starters.  It was not to say that blocks is the only measure of defense.  I already posted that he collects more rebounds than his opponent so there is another measure that says his defense is at worse average but most likely above average.

But basically if he isn't top 5 in various categories then he is a poor defender.  At least I have used statistical evidence to show he is an above average defender.  All I hear in response is subjective observations..."he doesn't rotate well", "for his speed & height he should be better".

Bring some hard evidence not observations based on watching the 2001 playoffs to support your position that he is a poor defender.

You find me rotation stats and ill be glad to point it out for you Lurker.  To my knowledge there are none that exist.   See since alot of what makes up defense like rotation, altering shots, and intimidating shooters has no stat tied to it how do you expect me to do that?  I go off games I watch and have watched where Dirk has been a below average defender.  Michael Finley was a good defender in Dallas and according to you Dirk is an above average defender......why were they one of the worst defensive teams in the league for so many years?   Would you like stats for them being a pitful defensive team forever?  Or is that another subjective observation coming from me?  If I am going off 2001 playoffs then can you explain why they were a pathetic defensive team in 2002,2003, and 2004?  2 of the starting 5 are above average defenders and the team allowed 100 points a game by the opponent.  Excuse me  while I spit out my water here.

No one thinks he is an above average defender except you and Skander.....and the only way you are proving that is by posting misleading stats like how the team averages one block per game at the PF spot and so does the opposing team.  I don't see how he is a good defender because he gets just as many blocks as Chris Bosh and Lafrentz.  You just said yourself he is better than half of the starting PFs.....okay but you are making a case for him as top 5 in the league and an above average defender.  I guess by that same stat Kenyon Martin is an above average defender as is Chris Anderson.  Chris gets 5 rebounds in 17 minutes a game while Dirk gets 8-9 in 40 minutes.  I guess Chris Anderson is an above average defender based on Lurker Logic.  In 17 minutes he gets more blocks than Dirk does in 40.    Is he even a top 50 player in the league?  I dont think so.  Correct me if I am wrong.

2001 playoffs...and 2002, 2003, 2004, and this season.  I apologize for expecting the best player and most athletic big man on the team to help improve team defense and be a decent one on one defender before I say hes top 5 in the league.

[guest-koast]

___________________________________

Lets reserve this spot for Lurker and/or Skander to talk about Dirk shutting me up with 7 blocks tonight