L.A. radio on Kobe

[Reality]

Well it's a slow week in SoCal.

Xtra 590 "Loose Cannons" portion does a daily "showdown" whereupon one DJ or guest takes a stance while another DJ/guest takes an opposing stance.  They *debate* for 5 minutes or so then take 15 votes from callers.

Monday was Vic "The Brick" Jacobs vs I can't recall.  Topic:

Since Shaq left, is Kobe a top 10 player?

10 no votes, 5 yes.

Surprising only in that this station and is extremely Pro Laker and the majority of its callers find it both a Krishna gathering spot and host of 2 of the three DJs on the Loose Cannons being 100% adherents.

[westkoast]

To say Kobe is not a top 10 player in the league is a joke.  People dont know how to tell the difference between top 10 team and top 10 player.  He is a top 10 player but the team is below average.

[Joe Vancil]

Top ten:

Undisputed:  Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Shaquille O'Neal, LeBron James.

Disputed:  Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Jason Kidd, Elton Brand, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant.

I would have said Bryant was undeniably top 10.  When I'm asked to list 10, it's not as definite as it used to be, that's for sure.
 

[Reality]

Key operative word is what one defines as "top player."
Does he make his teamates better or is he simply a stat hound too much of the time?  Bryant has the ideal body makeup for NBA guard, but what about his personality.

Utah game Laker Fan Dan saw it for what it was and you did after reviews.  This is a blessing of bountious measure.  The Utah game should not be overhyped, as indeed Kobme could have come back and had the good Milwaukee game he had last night irregardless of Utah.  But i dont think so.  It should not be underhyped either.  Phil, who obviously came back to the Lakers for reasons other then winning (this is not a diss of Phil), had previously tolerated Kobmes shot attempt total.  Or so it seemed with Phil to the media.  Soft pedal zenny stuff like "we'd like to see Kobe not have to take so many shots."  However westkoast, as you posted previously it was not so much Bryants shot total as his ludicrous Meism shot selection that was wearing thin on all reasonable NBA intelligent people and even many a Laker.  Utah game and ending-to me- would have been the crescendo.  I really believe that Kobe brickfest may have been a beginnings of implosion in the media and within Lakers after that game -had the ref not sniffed Kobmes trousers and bailed him out yet again.  I think even the submissive Kobe fearing teamates might have even grown a pair.  Perhaps not, perhaps all things Laker would have continued on and the next couple games Kobe comes back either way.  Post Utah game, for the 1st time I have heard, Phil put a numeric figure on the shot attempts he would like to see Kobme tap out at, that being 26.  After saying that, Kobme has the Wolves game (great until cruchtime when he ballhogged and turned the ball over yet again) and the Milwaukee game -superb near triple double and 60% shooting.  So lets see what the future brings.

Point being, Kobmes shot selection since Shaq left has been bad.  Really bad.  To continually blame this on the rest of the Laker roster sucking has grown old.  Its a cop out given by Kobme apologists.   I've seen a fair amount of Laker possesions and to say no one is open, Bryant has to shoot is bullcrap 80% of the time.  Ditto with the "the rest of the team doesn't know the triangle, therefore Kobme has to throw up bricks."  Bryant can assist when he wants to, as evidenced by last nights game and some other games the past two years.  

So it boils down to what makes a "player".  Randolph and others cannot see the light with things a true player does like Manu GNob.  Both statistical and non statistical.

[westkoast]

Reality I think you need help understanding the difference between verbage in this sense.   Kobe's personality effects how good of a teammate he is or isnt.  Someones personality doesnt effect the player in this sense as they are being judged just by themselves.   Allen Iverson has a bad attitude too but does that mean he is not a top 10 player right now?  Heck no.  Shaq also has an attitude and an ego but does that mean he is not a top 10 player? Heck no.

If Kobe was just trying to pad stats then he could do a better job of it honestly.  Alot of his shots are coming in the flow of the offense but then he has about 5-10 more per game that are coming from freelancing.  So if he was padding stats 20 shots a game wouldnt be coming in the flow of the offense.  10 would and 20 would be going to him playing strickly one on one isolation offensive over and over and over and over.     Say what you want about his offense but his defense is solid as hell this year.  Remember your other thread talking about both ends of the court?  There are only a few perimeter defenders better than him in the league right now and those guys dont have to turn around and score 30 on the other end just for their team to have a chance.  Right now he is a top 10 player in the NBA, I find it hard for anyone to argue hes one of the 10 best doing it right now.  He is a top notch defender (Ask Ray Allen and Michael Redd last night) and top 5 in offensive weapons and one of the best clutch players in the game.

The Lakers squad is not being blamed for Kobe's shot selection.  Kobe is, by everyone.  If you think the Lakers are losing because of his shot selection you are sorely mistaken Reality.  Maybe you need to watch your REAL favorite basketball team a little bit more and you would realize that.  The Lakers squad as a whole is being blamed for poor defense, bad spacing in the triangle, and being in love with the 3 point line.  This may suprise you but the Lakers have lost a few games this year where Kobe's shot selection was on point.  No one takes you seriously when you say his shot selection is crap 80% of the time.  Going to the rack as much as he does surely makes your "figure" look like crap.  

You want to know why the Lakers won by 19 last night even though Kobe had some questionable shot selection last night?  It was because they played defense.

[Reality]

Top ten:

Undisputed:....
Disputed:....

 

Not faulting you specifically Joe but rather to you and everyone else:

How is Chauncey Billips not on the disputed list?  Again, one wants to leave him off their top 10 list, fine.  But for him to not even get a sniff especially of All Star team i think is wrong and overdue.  

Remember, this list is SINCE Shaq left/2004 end of season-onward.  I would say even throw in 2003-4 playoffs for Billups but certainly since then and absolutely for this 2005-6 year.  Of course we all remember Billips and RIP being shut down by Kobme in the 2004 Finals. :rolleyes:

17 ppg 8.5 assists 40% treys and he shoots a lot like 5 per game, 90% FTs including 4th qtr clutch shots.  Good individual and team D.  All withing the Pistons framework.  

I have no problem adding Billips name for disputed mention.  I also have no problem leaving him off the current top 10 list as he gets lots of help from the Pistons.  Y'all concur?

[Guest_Randy]

See THIS is where you lose credibility (not that you had any).

Chauncey Billups in the top 10?  WHEN has an opponent thrown a double-team at Chauncey?  In fact, I would state that Billups is the REASON the Pistons lost in the last game.  Billups was KILLING the Spurs in the 1st half of game 7 but then Pop puts Bowen on Billups and what does Billups do?  He tries to prove that he can take Bowen?  Now, being the kind of team player that you so readily critique Kobe for not being -- Billups SHOULD have found the guy who was being guarded by Tony Parker (i.e. Hamilton) because Rip would have had a FIELD day with Tony guarding him -- however, Billups tried to play Bowen one-on-one and lost!

Disputed: Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Jason Kidd, Elton Brand, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant.

There ARE some of those players who I think are undisputed top 10 -- however, you have some ONE dimensional players on that list that don't belong.  AI is an offensive threat -- not a defensive one.  Same with Dirk, Nash and TMac.  Kidd is past the point of being a top 10 -- although he once was.  

It's quite comical that you don't think Kobe is a top 10 player -- ask GM's what they think -- they will tell you he's a top 10 player -- because they would trade for him.  

Would Philly trade AI for Kobe?  Absolutely.
Would Miami trade Wade for Kobe?  Nope!
Would Dallas trade Dirk for Kobe?  Avery might but Cuban would never let it happen.
Would Indy trade JO for Kobe?  Nope -- big men are worth more.
Would Houston trade TMac for Kobe?  In a heart beat -- esp. for a coach who wants more defense than offense.
Would the Nets trade Kidd for Kobe?  Yep!
Would the Clips trade Brand for Kobe?  Yep!
Would Phoenix trade Nash for Kobe?  Yep!
Would Phoenix trade Amare for Kobe?  Absolutely not!  
Would Washington trade Arenas for Kobe?  Yep!
Would SA trade Manu for Kobe?  Yep -- in a HEARTBEAT!!!

Ask yourself who the Lakers would trade Kobe for?  Amare in a heartbeat -- JO, perhaps but I doubt it -- there isn't anyone on the list that the Lakers would trade Kobe for!

[Reality]

 

A.I. certainly has had stretches of facets of Kombe type behaviour, ie his 39% fgs and hoisting up treys at a 28% clip a few years ago.  Last year and especially this year A.I. has drastically changed as has the 6er offensive plan with Obrien out and Mobert in.  It shows.  

Shaq ditto.  His attitudinal failure to get in shape certainly does affect his teams ability, therefore I leave him out of the top 10 when he is being a fat blob.  As to his attitude, I never heard teamates in L.A. complaining about Shaq being a ballhog or failing to pass when he could.  He certainly enhanced the careers of Rick Foxth, Dereek Fisher and many more.  Like Kobe Bryant. :rofl:  :nod:
Ditto Miami players.  They love what he does for them.  I don't hear that from LA players.

So Bryants taking as many as 10 shots outside the offense do not affect an LA loss? :crazy:  He absolutely has affected a good # of losses this year.  Shot over 30 attempts 7 times.  No those were not in 6 LA wins, sorry.  One two or three bad selection shots a game is not what I'm talking about.

I do not mean 80% of his shots are crap selection, heavens no.  I mean the games whereupon he has gone on a 9-33 brickfest.  Those are overall crap selection offensive games by him 80% of those games.  In other words he has had about 10 or so games with 33% fg% high shot attempts right?  8 of those 10 he was a Meism ballhog.

Your Extra 570 LA area brotheren voted 10-5,.

[Reality]

See THIS is where you lose credibility (not that you had any).

Chauncey Billups in the top 10?

What I posted:
"I have no problem adding Billips name for disputed mention. I also have no problem leaving him off the current top 10 list as he gets lots of help from the Pistons. Y'all concur?"

Do the twist.

Your "who other teams would trade to get Kobme" list is  :rofl:
Uncredible. :rolleyes:  

[westkoast]

So Bryants taking as many as 10 shots outside the offense do not affect an LA loss? :crazy:  He absolutely has affected a good # of losses this year.  Shot over 30 attempts 7 times.  No those were not in 6 LA wins, sorry.  One two or three bad selection shots a game is not what I'm talking about.

 

I didnt say it has nothing to do with it but it is far from the main reason, far from it.  His shot selection is not why they lost to teams like the Bulls nor was it why they lost to teams like the Spurs, the Suns, or Wolves.  

Not sure exactly why I am even bothering to debate with you when you dont even watch the games.  If you did, then you would know, the defense and the spacing of the triangle is the major problems.  Shot selection by Kobe is not one of the major problems.  That's like saying because Odom has been ineffiecent on the offensive end that the Lakers are losing because of that.  Not the case.    Just to let you know Kobe is about on par to shoot his career %.  The same % he has been shooting his entire career.  The years they won the title he did take many shots outside of the triangle too........difference is?? Better supporting cast and MUCH better defense.

[Skandery]

Disputed: Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Jason Kidd, Elton Brand, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire, Gilbert Arenas, Kobe Bryant.

Okay, WHO are you and what have you done with Joe Vancil?  The Joe I know wouldn't consider Arenas a top 10 guard much less player!  

We have an imposter on the board, Derek!!  

[Reality]

Not sure exactly why I am even bothering to debate with you when you dont even watch the games.  If you did, then you would know, the defense and the spacing of the triangle is the major problems.


  Just to let you know Kobe is about on par to shoot his career %.  The same % he has been shooting his entire career.  The years they won the title he did take many shots outside of the triangle too........difference is?? Better supporting cast and MUCH better defense.

Watching the games is helping me, but what i really need to get back to is THE KOBE stat that Jomal found from that AP reporter.  Kobme isn't missing those shots, he is giving his teamates an opportunity for an offensive rebound.

He sure is on par with his career stats.
Kobe Stats:
career fg .450
currently .424 lowest in 8 years and lowest in career except for rookie season.

Three pointers
career: .330
currently .241 lowest ever

Lastly, this was pointed out by westkoast.

I dont doubt Kobe might of banged up his finger but I dont buy that is the reason he is shooting so poorly. If he is indeed hurt to the point it is affecting his shot then why is he trying to take turn around jumpers 25 feet out? Or trying to shoot over Gasol and Jones? Or taking an off balanced runner falling away from the basket?? Yes he does hit those shots quite often but sometimes people go into slumps and cant hit the blindside of the barn. IMO that is the case right now. I think its affecting him a bit cuz his finishing around the rim has been very un-kobe like but his poor shooting is as much about him forcing things as it is pain in his hand. When I heard the news I thought 'Ya maybe hes hurt but way to shield Mr. Bryant from his poor shot selection'

I'm sure why you bother.
 

[westkoast]

Not sure exactly why I am even bothering to debate with you when you dont even watch the games.  If you did, then you would know, the defense and the spacing of the triangle is the major problems.


  Just to let you know Kobe is about on par to shoot his career %.  The same % he has been shooting his entire career.  The years they won the title he did take many shots outside of the triangle too........difference is?? Better supporting cast and MUCH better defense.

Watching the games is helping me, but what i really need to get back to is THE KOBE stat that Jomal found from that AP reporter.  Kobme isn't missing those shots, he is giving his teamates an opportunity for an offensive rebound.

He sure is on par with his career stats.
Kobe Stats:
career fg .450
currently .424 lowest in 8 years and lowest in career except for rookie season.

Three pointers
career: .330
currently .241 lowest ever

Lastly, this was pointed out by westkoast.

I dont doubt Kobe might of banged up his finger but I dont buy that is the reason he is shooting so poorly. If he is indeed hurt to the point it is affecting his shot then why is he trying to take turn around jumpers 25 feet out? Or trying to shoot over Gasol and Jones? Or taking an off balanced runner falling away from the basket?? Yes he does hit those shots quite often but sometimes people go into slumps and cant hit the blindside of the barn. IMO that is the case right now. I think its affecting him a bit cuz his finishing around the rim has been very un-kobe like but his poor shooting is as much about him forcing things as it is pain in his hand. When I heard the news I thought 'Ya maybe hes hurt but way to shield Mr. Bryant from his poor shot selection'

I'm sure why you bother.

Do you ever make any sense?  

He is 3 pct points away from hitting his average.   Again, if you watched the games instead of base everything you say off box scores you would know that MANY times he has gone and shot lower than normal and ALWAYS comes back to his career %.  He took MORE forced shots last year and ended up with the same pct% as he always has.  Again IF YOU WATCHED ALL THE GAMES YOU WOULD KNOW THIS.   Same exact thing happend last year...but AGAIN YOU DONT WATCH ALL THE GAMES.

I never said he isnt taking ill advised shots.  In fact I was the first person on this board to say that....but what the #$%^ are you getting at?  Your brain is seriously in some desperate need of a tune up.

[Guest_Randy]

See THIS is where you lose credibility (not that you had any).

Chauncey Billups in the top 10?

What I posted:
"I have no problem adding Billips name for disputed mention. I also have no problem leaving him off the current top 10 list as he gets lots of help from the Pistons. Y'all concur?"

Do the twist.

Your "who other teams would trade to get Kobme" list is  :rofl:
Uncredible. :rolleyes:

How is Chauncey Billips not on the disputed list? Again, one wants to leave him off their top 10 list, fine.

Who is the one who brought him up?  It wasn't me -- he doesn't even BELONG in this discussion (of course, you are the KING of bringing things into a discussion that doesn't belong).

[Reality]

Who is the one who brought him up?  It wasn't me -- he doesn't even BELONG in this discussion (of course, you are the KING of bringing things into a discussion that doesn't belong).

I brought him up.

Of course what would a starting guard on the team who punked the Most Overated of All Time 4-1 be doing mentioned in anywhere near a top 10.  He sure must suck. :rofl:   Kobe must have locked him down on D, and lit him up on O, right? :rolleyes:

Do you two morons have anything to say about the threads topic, 10 of 15 callers from your Staples Temple area leaving Kobe off the top ten.

No westkoast, after Kobe was in the 30s for a good part of last season I did not watch the final 20 games when, out of playoff contention Kobe shot his back above 40%.  It does show your devotion tho. :hail:

I'm so ashamed.  Watching those Spurs-Suns games instead.