WHEW!!! Do you Smell that?!

[Guest_Randy]

I'll stand by my opinion until proven wrong....Jackson will be exposed this year as an ordinary coach. And if he gets these Lakers to overacheive then I will be here to congratulate him.

Oh, we will all remember this statement!   :rofl:   Of course, many Laker fans will probably be as surprised as you are.  I DO expect the Lakers to be better than last year -- for several reasons:  1) they weren't healthy last year; 2) Odom and Bryant, who played decently together at the beginning of the year, did not play well together at the end of the year; 3) I DO expect PJ to put together a system that utilizes Odom and Bryant together effectively.  

Now, how MUCH better will the Lakers be?  We will have to see -- I really expect them to be fighting for the bottom playoff spots -- if they can do better than that, then I will be here applauding PJ as well.


However, I still state that there is far more to being an NBA coach than just X's and O's -- there are some coaches who are great X's and O's guys but fail in other areas making them a bad coach (see Doug Collins who I think is a decent X's and O's guy but fails horribly in relating to players and getting them to play his game on the court).  It's going to be interesting to see just HOW good PJ is this year -- he has also garnered a bunch of NBA "tutors" rather than assistant coaches this year.  Is there ANY assistant coach who is an X's and O's guy?  It doesn't seem to be so.  PJ has a LOT to prove this year -- perhaps more than the Lakers squad themselves!

[westkoast]

Lurker, I thought you were more to the right side of reasonable than this.

I won't deny in the past that PJ surrounded himself with a solid coaching staff...and much like Bird in INdiana it was the coaching staff that produced the winners.  So PJ is a great motivator and a smart CEO.  But in game time coaching, he sucks.  I have said that for years.

And now he has surrounded himself by who as his coaching staff....a bunch of ex all-stars that have proved what as coaches?  Jackson's teams have always been above average defensive teams....but was that because of a superior defensive philosphy or superior defensive players?

I'll stand by my opinion until proven wrong....Jackson will be exposed this year as an ordinary coach.  And if he gets these Lakers to overacheive then I will be here to congratulate him.

A head coach is the CEO of the squad.  So how is PJ being knocked for being a CEO when that is how the head coach role is in a sense?   He is in charge of management (the coaching staff) it is his job to assemble that management, and he has to make sure they all their ideas and game plans work together in a cohesive matter.  This also includes making sure the workers are...well working together.  CEOs balance egos just the same.  They can recognize when a worker has a talent that could fit a certain role.  A role that they will thrive in, be happy, and in the end produce more work.  I dont see how that is a knock but more power to ya Lurker.  The NBA (including your lovely Spurs) operate the same was as any other corporation.  The product they happen to put out is a sports game but still ran like any other big business none-the-less.  Pop is a CEO himself.  He brokers power deals to get players, he has meetings with players to get them to join his "firm", he has to make sure management is happy, and he has to produce for the fans (which wouldnt be too much different than share holders who demand a quality product for money they put into the firm...but they get money back =] )

As for the knock of him surrounding him with coaches who did all the work.  That's laughable because its an assumption used to try to discredit him.   Mr. Popavich has done the same exact thing.  His coaching staff is one of the best and has been for along time.  The guy had Larry Brown under him at one point.  I would say Larry Brown is twice the coach that Tex Winters or Frank Hamblin are.  PJ Carlismo is far from a horrible coach himself.  Certainly better than  the coaches under Jackson aside from Tex Winters.   Lurker please explain how the coaching staff produced the Laker championships and PJ did nothing.  Tex Winters and Co were not juggling egos, they were not the ones who were talking to Jerry Buss about who to get and not to get, they were not directly in charge of the defensive schemes, nor were they in charge of rotation.  You make it sound as if PJ sat with incense burning on the sideline while Tex Winters was head coaching from the shotgun seat :rolleyes:

Tex Winters is not the brains behind the operation.  He is a genius when it comes to offensive sets but he IS NOT and NEVER WAS in charge of the defensive sets on any of the squads with Jackson.  Jackson is actually directly in charge of the defensive sets.  I would expect Spurs fans to know better than anyone else that the defensive end of the court is what wins you big games, not the offensive side.

Rick...uhh the Lakers during their 3 year run was one of the very best defensive teams in the league.  Im not even saying top 10, they were one of the top 3 defensive ball clubs in that run.  You can check the stats if you like.    You do not dominate the league in that fashion by only playing offense.  As much as Kobe and Shaq can score they are both great defenders, which is why the inside-out game was so talked about.....it was on both sides of the floor.  Kobe would take on the perimeter player and Shaq was the man in the paint.

[Lurker]

koast....

Where to start.

Larry Brown NEVER coached under Pop...in fact it was the exact opposite.  LB brought Pop to SA as an assistant.  But to paraphrase so many of you Laker FANATICS....what does mere facts mean.

Another difference is that Pop does find good assistants....but then he lets those guys go on and coach elsewhere.  Even Carlissimo was allowed to pursue other jobs this summer.  So his system must be a very good one in that not only can he plug in different players but plug in different assistant coaches.  But through it all there is one constant: Pop.

PJ has built his career on the back on the same group of assistants.  Now those guys are all gone...and we can see if he can really coach.  The group he has put together now has a long way to go to match Winter, Hamblin, Cleamons, etc.  The constant in Jackson's career has been the same coaching team.  

Defensively does PJ really have a great scheme?  Or has he depended on having solid defensive players.  MJ, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper....these guys were defensive players wherever they played not just because they were in a good defensive system.  Same with Shaq, Kobe, Fox, Fisher.  In contrast look how guys like Big Dog & Kerr look like decent defenders in Pop's system.

My point is that PJ has never had to truly work his team like he will this year.  He will have to manage game time situations more than ever because he doesn't have superior talent on the floor.  And obviously this opinion doesn't sit well with Laker fans.  I wouldn't expect it to....but then I haven't seen any evidence yet to suggest that I am being to harsh on Jackson.

[WayOutWest]

My point is that PJ has never had to truly work his team like he will this year.  He will have to manage game time situations more than ever because he doesn't have superior talent on the floor.  And obviously this opinion doesn't sit well with Laker fans.  I wouldn't expect it to....but then I haven't seen any evidence yet to suggest that I am being to harsh on Jackson.

Oh that's right, durring his run in Chicago he went 6 straits years winning titles not having to work with a team depleted of talent.

How quickly they forget the lost "Jordan" years.  Losing two cornerstone players, not to mention one of them was the greatest player of his time, and not only making it back into the playoffs but nearly making it back to the finals only required reading the funny papers on the sideline and the occasional media quirp (sic?).

[Lurker]

Oh that's right, durring his run in Chicago he went 6 straits years winning titles not having to work with a team depleted of talent.

How quickly they forget the lost "Jordan" years.  Losing two cornerstone players, not to mention one of them was the greatest player of his time, and not only making it back into the playoffs but nearly making it back to the finals only required reading the funny papers on the sideline and the occasional media quirp (sic?).

I wouldn't call losing in the second round "nearly making back to the finals".


And by my count he lost 1 player (although the main engine of those championship teams) not two "cornerstones".  Who BTW returned for the second run in the playoffs...still falling in the second round 4-2.


And I did address this issue....if you want to go back and read what I wrote.  There was a system in place (put there by the same coaching team) that used players that were experienced in that system (little roster turnover).  And as I said in that earlier post...IMO all it proved was that PJ was an average coach.  One who was able to take an experienced team with an established system with players accepting their roles in that system and leading them to a second round loss.  

Puts him on par with Nellie.    :ding:  

[westkoast]

koast....

Where to start.

Larry Brown NEVER coached under Pop...in fact it was the exact opposite.  LB brought Pop to SA as an assistant.  But to paraphrase so many of you Laker FANATICS....what does mere facts mean.

Another difference is that Pop does find good assistants....but then he lets those guys go on and coach elsewhere.  Even Carlissimo was allowed to pursue other jobs this summer.  So his system must be a very good one in that not only can he plug in different players but plug in different assistant coaches.  But through it all there is one constant: Pop.

PJ has built his career on the back on the same group of assistants.  Now those guys are all gone...and we can see if he can really coach.  The group he has put together now has a long way to go to match Winter, Hamblin, Cleamons, etc.  The constant in Jackson's career has been the same coaching team. 

Defensively does PJ really have a great scheme?  Or has he depended on having solid defensive players.  MJ, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper....these guys were defensive players wherever they played not just because they were in a good defensive system.  Same with Shaq, Kobe, Fox, Fisher.  In contrast look how guys like Big Dog & Kerr look like decent defenders in Pop's system.

My point is that PJ has never had to truly work his team like he will this year.  He will have to manage game time situations more than ever because he doesn't have superior talent on the floor.  And obviously this opinion doesn't sit well with Laker fans.  I wouldn't expect it to....but then I haven't seen any evidence yet to suggest that I am being to harsh on Jackson.

I mixed up Pop and Brown.  That def was my bad.  That still does not mean that Pop does not surround himself with quality assistants to help balance the load.  Just because he let PJ go off to look for another job this summer and Phil Jackson keeps around his same staff does not mean they dont do the same thing.  Besides Lurker, what a big gamble it is for Pop to let PJ go when his team is already in place.  Its one thing to let assistants come in and out when your building up the team...its another when you already have a solid core, have had success for the past 4 years, and added players to improve your championship team.  If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

As for building his career on the backs of the other coaches.  Again this is an assumption made by you to try to discredit Phil Jackson.  You didnt even know he was in charge of the defense for both Laker and Bulls squads yet you are sitting back and acting like hes a slave driver reaping the benefits of someone elses hardwork.  Like I was telling Rick, there is much more to it than you are assuming here.  AGAIN he is not just sitting in the lockerroom and on the sideline meditating, burning incense, and relaxing while all those other guys are doing all the work.  As for game time decisions...how much tape do you want to be pulled from ESPN classic where he is calling up plays at the end of the game for both the Lakers and the Bulls?  Oh wait....Tex has his hand up his rear end calling the plays!!

Defensively does PJ really have a great scheme?  Or has he depended on having solid defensive players.  MJ, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Harper....these guys were defensive players wherever they played not just because they were in a good defensive system.  Same with Shaq, Kobe, Fox, Fisher.  In contrast look how guys like Big Dog & Kerr look like decent defenders in Pop's system

So Pop didn't have the benefit of having TWO big bodies who were also great defenders in the middle?  He hasnt had the benefit of players such as Bruce Bowen and Shawn Elliot (who I always thought was a real solid defender).    What about Mario Ellie (spelling?)  As for decent defenders looking good in a system...what would you call Luc Longley, Bill Cartwright, and Bj Armstrong?  The Bulls were one of the best defensive teams in the league when they had their run.  How many medicore players did they have playing good team defense?    Bulls certainly werent winning then due to only offense, again being a Spurs fan you should know what gets the job done.  Is it offense or defense Lurker?  You dont win 72 games in one season by being the Dallas Mavericks.  Jack flippin Haley looked like a half way decent defender on that squad.

[WayOutWest]

And by my count he lost 1 player (although the main engine of those championship teams) not two "cornerstones".  Who BTW returned for the second run in the playoffs...still falling in the second round 4-2.

Puts him on par with Nellie.    :ding:

1 Jordan + 1 Grant = 1?

6 rings = 0 rings?

Why am I not surprised by your counting system.   :rolleyes:



 

[Guest_Randy]

My point is that PJ has never had to truly work his team like he will this year. He will have to manage game time situations more than ever because he doesn't have superior talent on the floor. And obviously this opinion doesn't sit well with Laker fans. I wouldn't expect it to....but then I haven't seen any evidence yet to suggest that I am being to harsh on Jackson.

Shoot, if this is what you are going to go on, then Pop hasn't proven that he is anything more than an average coach either.  The Spurs HAVE had superior talent -- DRob and Elliott -- then manipulating the system to get TD.  Pop has ALWAYS had superior talent so therefore how is he any different from PJ?  The ONLY year that Pop had a team with as little talent as the current Lakers was when DRob went down to injury (before TD's arrival) and they were a lottery team.  Hmm, doesn't sound like Pop is much of a coach either based on this criteria.

[WayOutWest]

If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

Whoa whoa whoa koast...you can't apply the same Laker standards and arguments to the Spurs, it doesn't work that way with their fans.  Pop would win titles with any average center, just look at what he did with hall of famer David Robinson.  That's all the proof of Pop's greatness you need right there.

Like I was telling Rick, there is much more to it than you are assuming here.  AGAIN he is not just sitting in the lockerroom and on the sideline meditating, burning incense, and relaxing while all those other guys are doing all the work.

Wrong wrong...all it takes is talent.  Just look at the titles Harris won with the 90's Lakers, Mike Dunleavy won with the Blazers, Nellie did with the Mavs, Sloan with the Jazz, Wilkins with the Ehlo, Daugherty, Price Cavs and Mike with Amare/Nash Suns.

That's all it takes, collect the talent and put it on the floor.  Any IDIOT can buy into that argument.

[rickortreat]

Rick,

I don't have the time to pick apart your erroneous posts. It's amazing how far off you are on your b-ball opinions. You've contradicted yourself in your posts as well.

One thing I would like to point out in your posts is you claim Red was a great coach. Red is the BIGGEST fraud in coaching if you follow Rick's logic. All Red did was BUY all the best talent and put it on the floor. The Celtics were able to do what the Yankees do in baseball. Pay for the best players and then just put 5 hall of famers on the floor and win titles. Red is the MOST over rated and least deserving coach in basketball history. The proof is that when Red left Bill Russell went on to coach the Cetls to a title. Red was nothing more than a glorified towel boy who rode the coat tails of a hall of fame starting 5. I hope Red at least drove the team bus, that would probably be his biggest contribution to the Celtics dynasty if you follow Ricks logic.

Let me know when some of you stop drinking the stupid koolaide.

You're obviously the one on some type of drug!  Red was the one who determined who the best players were and beat the other teams to get those guys.  He assembled the greatest selection of talent in relative terms ever in the NBA with all those consecutive rings to prove it.  Any other team could have spent the money the Celtics did, as there was no salary cap then.  They didn't and Red did.

Your proof about Russel coaching the team is absurd and fauly logic.  The team was Red's team, the same players, including Russel on the floor running Red's system.  This is merely proof of your lack of intelligence!

  :bash:

Further it wasn't the same players year after year.  Red was constantly upgrading the team and searching for new talent to replace the old ones.  Look up all the starst they had on that team, and not just the starting 5.  Tom Heinson, Sam Jones, Bill Russel, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, John Havlicheck, K.C. Jones, Bailey Howell.  All of these guys are in the Hall of Fame.  That level of recruiting is an accomplishment that eclipses any GM in the game, including Jerry West.  

Do you have any more assinine comments for me to rip?  

[Lurker]

If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

Whoa whoa whoa koast...you can't apply the same Laker standards and arguments to the Spurs, it doesn't work that way with their fans.  Pop would win titles with any average center, just look at what he did with hall of famer David Robinson.  That's all the proof of Pop's greatness you need right there.

 

And at this point I guess it would be futile to remind you of how many times it was pointed out by Laker fans that DRob was washed up at the end.

But then at least you don't contradict yourselves in the same thread as you accuse others of doing.   :rolleyes:  

[WayOutWest]

You're obviously the one on some type of drug!  Red was the one who determined who the best players were and beat the other teams to get those guys.  He assembled the greatest selection of talent in relative terms ever in the NBA with all those consecutive rings to prove it.  Any other team could have spent the money the Celtics did, as there was no salary cap then.  They didn't and Red did.

Wrong, other teams didn't have the money to compete with the Celtics.  The Celtics simply out bid other teams for talent.

Your proof about Russel coaching the team is absurd and fauly logic.  The team was Red's team, the same players, including Russel on the floor running Red's system.  This is merely proof of your lack of intelligence!

Actually my "fauly" logic is based on your comments.  Since the team was able to win without Red, just on talent alone like you say about PJ, then by YOUR logic that makes Red less of a coach.

Let me know if this is too fast for you.

Further it wasn't the same players year after year.  Red was constantly upgrading the team and searching for new talent to replace the old ones.  Look up all the starst they had on that team, and not just the starting 5.  Tom Heinson, Sam Jones, Bill Russel, Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, John Havlicheck, K.C. Jones, Bailey Howell.  All of these guys are in the Hall of Fame.  That level of recruiting is an accomplishment that eclipses any GM in the game, including Jerry West.

 

Exactly Ricko.  With all that talent I could coach the team to a title, just like anyone could coach Shaq/Kobe or MJ/Pippen to a title.  

Do you even realize what's going on here?  Is it too subtle for you to comprehend?  I'm being as subtle as a bomb at this point Rick.

Do you have any more assinine comments for me to rip?

LMAO, yes you are ripping one, it's obvious to everyone IMO.

[Guest_Randy]

If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

Whoa whoa whoa koast...you can't apply the same Laker standards and arguments to the Spurs, it doesn't work that way with their fans.  Pop would win titles with any average center, just look at what he did with hall of famer David Robinson.  That's all the proof of Pop's greatness you need right there.

 

And at this point I guess it would be futile to remind you of how many times it was pointed out by Laker fans that DRob was washed up at the end.

But then at least you don't contradict yourselves in the same thread as you accuse others of doing.   :rolleyes:

Why is it needed to point that out -- it wasn't DRob winning any titles anymore -- it was TD.  Your contradiction only exists in your mind (and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you had one).

[WayOutWest]

If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

Whoa whoa whoa koast...you can't apply the same Laker standards and arguments to the Spurs, it doesn't work that way with their fans.  Pop would win titles with any average center, just look at what he did with hall of famer David Robinson.  That's all the proof of Pop's greatness you need right there.

 

And at this point I guess it would be futile to remind you of how many times it was pointed out by Laker fans that DRob was washed up at the end.

But then at least you don't contradict yourselves in the same thread as you accuse others of doing.   :rolleyes:

Wrong again, he was washed up when his back problems became and issue AFTER, I repeat AFTER, they got TD.

I'm talking about all the titles Pop won with DRob before TD.

Self contradiction is not one of my strong suits.

Although skirting the relavent points seems to be one of yours, either that or my posts are being cut off on your screen.

[westkoast]

If Jackson is going to get knocked for Jordan than shouldn't Pop be knocked for Duncan?  The one constant is the center piece of the team.  Not just Pop.  Take that into mind.

Whoa whoa whoa koast...you can't apply the same Laker standards and arguments to the Spurs, it doesn't work that way with their fans.  Pop would win titles with any average center, just look at what he did with hall of famer David Robinson.  That's all the proof of Pop's greatness you need right there.

 

And at this point I guess it would be futile to remind you of how many times it was pointed out by Laker fans that DRob was washed up at the end.

But then at least you don't contradict yourselves in the same thread as you accuse others of doing.   :rolleyes:

Was David Robinson a shell of his former self his last year? Yes he was.  Was he still effective?  Yes he was.  The first year the Spurs won the title in 99 was he washed up then?  No.   He was at the downhill part of his career but he was still in very good shape and still could play well.  I dont remember saying he was washed up, I remember saying that his injuries and age made him a shell of his former self when the Spurs won a few years back.  You can agree with that as Duncan pulled a huge chunk of the load that year.

Again, if Jackson is going to take heat for having some of the greatest players in the game on his squads why does Pop not going to take heat for having Duncan?  Is Duncan not one of the best PF and players of all time?  I think it would be hard for anyone who is a basketball fan to disagree.  Even SA haters of Randy's caliber can admit that Duncan is probably the best PF to play the game =]