Author Topic: Sixers pick up Lee Nailon  (Read 3772 times)

Rickortreat

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Sixers pick up Lee Nailon
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2005, 11:48:23 AM »
Joe, every year Sam has played he has improved, and he's never been a primary option, because of the other players.  But he has all of the skills, and is developing an outside shot.  I know because I've seen him produce in games including last years playoffs.

He's quicker and taller than most NBA centers, and it's only been his lack of coordination and experience that's kept him from becoming a top-flight center.  He didn't play basketball in High School, and he simply didn't know how to play the game.

He is already a better player than Mutumbo who really is a spaz.  I'm not predicting 20 and 10 for this guy yet, and on the Sixers he doesn't need to be.  But against a lot of teams, there's no one to stop him from being a big part of the Sixers effort.  If he can learn to stay out of foul trouble, he'll be the third or fourth best Center in the east stat-wise. And el-grand0-fatso can't stay with him in the open court.  Or even stop him from driving the lane from the top of the key.

Watch what Cheeks does with him this year.  It's gonna be good.  He can afford to be more aggressive with him, since he has a backup in Hunter and even Nailon.  

Production out of the center spot has not been a hallmark of the Sixers since Moses retired.  Everytime Mutumbo got the ball I cringed, it was like watching a slow-motion tape of a center who would miss a point-blank shot.  Sam is a definite upgrade, and his improvement will be a big determinant in how far the Sixers can go.  If the other teams center doens't come out, the Sixers will make them pay by having Sam shoot.  When they do come out it opens up the lane.  IMO he's ready to play like a real center now.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2005, 12:18:31 PM »
Rick,

Sometimes I wonder what games you watch.  Sam is NOWHERE near the abilities of Deke when he was a Sixer let alone when Deke was in his prime.  Sam is not in the same league as Deke defensively and has NO offensive game or skills.  All Sam is capable of are point blank shots and dunks, so offensively he's pretty close to Deke on the offense but not as good.

The only way the Sixers get deep into the playoffs is if both O'Neil's go down and Big Ben gets his fro caught in a ceiling fan and is out for the season.  Because the East is SOOOOOO weak I do expect Philly to get into the 2nd round, but once they face one of the big 3 they will lose.  

IMO the Sixers best shot is to meet up with the Pistons and hope Webber can frustrate Wallace.  The Pistons front court is not bigger and not much tougher than the Sixers.  While Big Ben is SLOWLY developing an offensive game he's still pretty much a defensive workhorse.  If Sam can develop the same attitude as Big Ben he can offset Ben's contributions because Ben is about effort and not talent.  Sam has Ben beat on talent but Sam is a really dumb player and that's where a guy like Ben will destroy him.  Ben will out position Sam and rough him up and take him completely out of the game.

Against Indy Jermaine and Artest will be too much for the Sixers.  A key factor could be IF Sam can defend Jermaine.  That would be a terific matchup IF Sam can stay out of trouble.  Sam and Rasheed are the best defensive matchups for Jermaine in the East.  

Against Miami Shaq will just run over the Sixers defense, Shaq is way too much for the entire Sixers front court.  Wade will destroy the Sixers at will, Miami is the worst matchup for the Sixers.

One thing that has impressed me about the Sixers is the speed and athletic ability of their tweeners.  They can put alot of defensive pressure on a team in short 2-3 minutes spurts.  Don't know how much of those types of players the Sixers still have but I've seen them take teams completely out of their game for minutes at a time with extreem ball pressure.
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Offline Reality

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« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2005, 12:30:26 PM »
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Rick,

Sometimes I wonder what games you watch....   Sam is not in the same league as Deke defensively and has NO offensive game or skills.
Deke was still bringing it hard on D in last years playoffs.

Not his fault Van Grunty is the coach.  Otherwise I think Hou wins round 1 easily last year.  With Deke playing 20 minutes several games of the series.

Offline Skandery

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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2005, 12:56:48 PM »
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He is already a better player than Mutumbo who really is a spaz.

Sorry Rick I just can't let this one go.

Okay

To compare the first three years of Mr. Dalembert's career with that of the spaz, Mutombo.

Dalembert  (Parentheses are Total)

FG% - .528
FT% - .612
Reb  - 6.6  (1236)
Blk  - 1.7   (323)
Pts  - 6.9   (1292)
TO  - 1.1  (214)
PF  -  2.9  (544)

Mutombo

FG% - .524
FT%  - .635
Reb  - 12.4  (2911)
Blk  - 3.5   (833)
Pts  - 14.1  (3294)
TO  - 2.9   (674)
PF  - 3.5    (819)

Hmm, he turns the ball over much less and shoots a touch higher from the field....and thats about all he does better than Mutombo.  

Rick: "But Skander you're forgetting that Mutombo played about 36.5 minutes a game whereas Dalembert only plays about 19 minutes a game."

I know Rick, but let's remember the 19 is brought way down by the very low total of 5 mpg during Samuel's rookie season (which he only played 34 games BTW).  But I do see your point so lets take a look at the per 40 minute numbers, shall we?

Dalembert

Pts -  12.4
Reb - 11.9
Blk -  3.1

Mutombo

Pts - 15.3
Reb - 13.5
Blk -  3.9

Hmmm, so both players extrapolated out to the same number of minutes and Mutombo is still outproducing Dalembert in every "big man" category.  And before we start excusing Sammy because he fouls so much more, Mutombo still found ways to produce while committing a hefty 3.8 fouls per 40 minutes.  Granted its not the atrocious 5.2 fouls per 40 min. of Dalembert.  All this and by this point in his career, Dikembe had become the league leader in blocks and bpg and would go on in his fourth year to lead the league in total rebounds also.

Rick: "But Skander, Dalembert never played high school basketball."

Nice point, Rick, and it would be very valid except for the fact that neither did Dikembe Mutombo.  He was a freakishly long and athletic big man from Kinshasa, Zaire that John Thompson took on as a project.      

In short, Dikembe Mutombo is NOT a spaz....while Dalembert has yet to prove otherwise.  As projects go, I'll take more of the Dikembe variety way before the Haitian Sensation variety. :rolleyes:    

 
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rickortreat

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Sixers pick up Lee Nailon
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2005, 02:27:30 PM »
Lets compare those stats after Sam has a few more years under his belt.  I've seen both of these players while they were on the Sixers, and I've noticed both their strengths and weaknesses.

I saw the Sixers use Mutumbo in the low post, and I can't think of an uglier post up player, ever.  He played as well as he could for the Sixers, and he didn't even perform up to the level that Theo Ratliff did before he went down with an injury.  Note that Theo has all but dissapeared from the list of noteable players, and Dikembe is now a back-up.

Skandery your comparisons are valid in terms of their development, except that Dikembe played for some bad teams and was a focal point, whereas Sam was more of an afterthought on the bench as far as Brown was concerned.  Part of his late development can be attributed to that, which is why I suggest we let the future performance decide this argument.  I see greater potential in Dalembert than Mutumbo has ever reached, only time will tell if my projection is realistic as his high salary.

Sam averaged a double-double in the playoffs- 11.6 pts and 12.8 boards, and this was against the team (Detroit) that went all the way to the finals, and at the time had a much deeper and stronger front-court than Philadelphia.  I'd say he more than held his own against Big Ben, Rasheed, and McDyess.

Most of the teams the Sixers will face aren't nearly as strong as Detroit up front, so it's not unreasonable to expect Sam to average a double-double this season, or close to it.  

He's the last option on offense, with players like Iverson, Webber and Igoudala on the floor that's not a surprise. At the same time, the more the Sixers use him on offense, the more space he creates for the others to operate.  Cheeks is a better coach than O'brainless and I expect him to find more ways to put Sam in a positon to be successful.

Offline Reality

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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2005, 02:33:33 PM »
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Lets compare those stats after Sam has a few more years under his belt.  I've seen both of these players while they were on the Sixers, and I've noticed both their strengths and weaknesses.

Sam averaged a double-double in the playoffs- 11.6 pts and 12.8 boards, and this was against the team (Detroit) that went all the way to the finals, and at the time had a much deeper and stronger front-court than Philadelphia.  I'd say he more than held his own against Big Ben, Rasheed, and McDyess.

Most of the teams the Sixers will face aren't nearly as strong as Detroit up front, so it's not unreasonable to expect Sam to average a double-double this season, or close to it.  

He's the last option on offense, with players like Iverson, Webber and Igoudala on the floor that's not a surprise. At the same time, the more the Sixers use him on offense, the more space he creates for the others to operate.  Cheeks is a better coach than O'brainless and I expect him to find more ways to put Sam in a positon to be successful.
Superb points by Skandery and superb counterpoints by rt.

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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2005, 03:40:25 PM »
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Lets compare those stats after Sam has a few more years under his belt.  I've seen both of these players while they were on the Sixers, and I've noticed both their strengths and weaknesses.

Are you paying attention Rick?  The per game stat comparisson was for their FIRST 3 years, not carreer averages.  They both began their pro careers at the same starting point and Deke was light years ahead of Sam after his first year.

Quote
I saw the Sixers use Mutumbo in the low post, and I can't think of an uglier post up player, ever.  He played as well as he could for the Sixers, and he didn't even perform up to the level that Theo Ratliff did before he went down with an injury.  Note that Theo has all but dissapeared from the list of noteable players, and Dikembe is now a back-up.

The ONLY player uglier than Deke in the post IS Sam.  IMO Sam on his best day will never play as well as Deke did for the Sixers let alone come close to how well Deke played in his prime or even in Denver.

Quote
Skandery your comparisons are valid in terms of their development, except that Dikembe played for some bad teams and was a focal point, whereas Sam was more of an afterthought on the bench as far as Brown was concerned.  Part of his late development can be attributed to that, which is why I suggest we let the future performance decide this argument.  I see greater potential in Dalembert than Mutumbo has ever reached, only time will tell if my projection is realistic as his high salary.

Please name ONE SINGLE team where Deke was the focal point.  The only focal point Deke ever was is on DEFENSE.  He single handedly intimidated teams and was the sole reason the 8th seeded Nuggets upset the #1 seeded Sonics.  The Nuggets were a bunch of youngsters who could NOT run a half court set to save their lives.  If it wasn't for Deke holding it down on the D and creating open court opportunities for the Nugs they would never have had a shot at beating the Sonics.  There is NOTHING I have seen from Sam that would lead me to believe he will be anything better than a border-line journey man center ala Cadwell Jones, Pervis Ellison or that 6'11 who had that great dunk on Shawn Bradley who signed with the Kings for one year, forget his name.

You can't just make things up to try and back up your point.  Deke has NEVER been considered an offensive option let alone the focal point.  D has always been his forte, even in college when he played with Alonzo he was strictly a defensive weapon.

Quote
Sam averaged a double-double in the playoffs- 11.6 pts and 12.8 boards, and this was against the team (Detroit) that went all the way to the finals, and at the time had a much deeper and stronger front-court than Philadelphia.  I'd say he more than held his own against Big Ben, Rasheed, and McDyess.

Most of the teams the Sixers will face aren't nearly as strong as Detroit up front, so it's not unreasonable to expect Sam to average a double-double this season, or close to it.

Let's see if he can keep it up before he's even mentioned in the same breath as Deke.  Deke is a proven commodity who was doing it from DAY ONE.  Sam is a project who is just not coordinated enough nor smart enough to ever become anything special.

Sam has a shot a proving himself against WEAK competition BUT I still doubt he will.  Deke was doing his thing against guys like Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq.  Not one of those players could dominate Deke with the exception of Shaq in the finals.

Quote
He's the last option on offense, with players like Iverson, Webber and Igoudala on the floor that's not a surprise. At the same time, the more the Sixers use him on offense, the more space he creates for the others to operate.  Cheeks is a better coach than O'brainless and I expect him to find more ways to put Sam in a positon to be successful.

I really doubt Sam will develop much beyond Deke on the offense.  Sam will always be a catch and dunk type of player.  If I were coaching Sam I would have him watch tapes of Robert Parish.  Same has the physique and coordination to mimic Roberts turn around jump shot.  That is Sam's best best because there is NO WAY he will ever be able to develop the post moves and footwork to mimic Kareem, McHale, James Edwards, Ewing and Walton, all guys who didn't over power their opponenets, instead they relied on finess.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2005, 03:40:56 PM by WayOutWest »
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Offline westkoast

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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2005, 04:21:35 PM »
You guys are forgetting one important piece of information...

Deke has done all this without knowing a lick of the english language...now that is impressive!
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2005, 04:47:49 PM »
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You guys are forgetting one important piece of information...

Deke has done all this without knowing a lick of the english language...now that is impressive!
Actually, Deke is fluent in 5 languages, while it may not sound like it at time, English is one of them.  That's one MAJOR difference/advantage that Deke has over Sam, Deke is actually a pretty smart guy.  Sam is a big athletic dummy, reminds me of Benoit Benjamin in terms of b-ball smarts.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2005, 05:13:36 PM »
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Joe, every year Sam has played he has improved, and he's never been a primary option, because of the other players

Sorry Rick, I'd love to stick up for my fellow sixers fan, but you've been drinking some heavy Dalembert cool-aid.

Dalembert hasn't been an option on offense not because of other players but because HE HAS NO OFFENSIVE GAME.  No ballhandling.  No post moves.  No hookshot.  And, no jumpshot.  His jumper is dreadful.  Much, much worse than Deke's.

As for defense, he's actually an underrated post defense.  In fact, most of his blocks come off his own man.  He's actually a pretty mediocre team defender.

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2005, 05:24:52 PM »
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English is one of them.
 :bs:  
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rickortreat

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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2005, 05:57:32 PM »
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Are you paying attention Rick? The per game stat comparisson was for their FIRST 3 years, not carreer averages. They both began their pro careers at the same starting point and Deke was light years ahead of Sam after his first year.

Yeah I am paying attention.  Dalmebert's first year, he played in only 34 games and averaged 5 minutes a game.  The next year, he played in all of them but only got 27 minutes a game.  How can you possibly compare stats with a player who was a starter from the minute he came into the league, and by his third year had so much more experience!?

The years that Mutumbo was here, he averaged somewhere around 11 rebounds and 11 points per game.  Just about what Dalembert produced in the playoffs.  

How much worse can he be if he can put up the same numbers now that he's in his fourth season?  Who's faster up and down the court,  who jumps higher?

Dike is a better blocker, having been trained well in College, but Sam has better potential.  I will agree about their relative intelligence.  I think Sam would have progressed a bit faster, if he was a bit brighter   :rolleyes:

I never saw Dikembe jump up, catch a shot and put it down, something Sam is coordinated enough to do regularly.  

Physically Sam is much more capable, Dikembe was never much more than a 10 and 10 player, Sam should be better as he gains more experience.

It's not easy for anyone who 7'0" to be a great dribbler in the post,  guys like Garnett and McHale were doing it since they were in Jr. High.  I don't know how much the Sixers are working with Sam, but I would have him practicing McHale's drop step, and up and under move 8 hours a day.  Eventually, he'd be able to mimic the moves and do it automatically, which is all he needs to become an all-star.

He's a player who needs to spend a lot of time practicing with someone patient enough to keep at it, until he gets it right.  Dikembe could never even think about copying moves like that, he'd trip over his feet and break his own ankles!

Just watch what happens this year.  

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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2005, 08:47:33 AM »
What is going to happen this year, rickortreat, is Philadelphia is going to do everything they can to see that Dalembert is the last option on offense - behind Iverson, Webber, Iguodala, Korver, and the average fan in the stands.  You say you're not predicting 20 and 10 - wake up!  Dalembert is NEVER going to average 20 points a game.  If he gets to 10 points a game, you should consider yourself incredibly lucky.

Having a player who isn't all that bright, and teaching him a move that requires deception to pull it off (like McHale's up-and-under) turns the player into a mechanical player, who simply goes through the mechanics and wonders why it isn't successful and everyone has read it.

Finally, looking at Dalembert's numbers against Detroit is a GREAT indication of what Dalembert's offensive game is.  Detroit knew that the way to beat Philadelphia was to IGNORE Dalembert and concentrate on all the people who COULD do damage - like Iverson and Webber.  And that was a REAL close series, wasn't it?  A 21 point loss (10 pts., 18 rebounds) and a 15 point loss (14 pts, 11 reb) to open it up - a Philadelphia 11 point win (14 points (4th on the team) and 10) - followed by two close games - a 97-92 overtime game (9 (.427 from the field) and 15) and a 10 point loss (11 and 10).  Why is it that in the ONLY close game, that's the time that Dalembert looked the WORST?

The guy is one-dimensional, and that dimension is DEFENSE.
 

Offline Derek Bodner

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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2005, 08:51:48 AM »
and for those that didn't know (YOU should be able to tell because every FIFTH word is capitalized for EFFECT), our guest is Randy

;)

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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2005, 09:18:17 AM »
Dbods -- that wasn't me BUT you should go back AND read my posts to SEE that my use of CAPITALIZATION is for the emphasis OF certain words (since I CAN'T inflect tone here) rather THAN simply capitalizing every fifth WORD.

Hmm, I can't say THAT I really like your APPROACH to the use of CAPITLIZATION of every fifth word.  I think I will stick to my OWN approach!