Author Topic: New Orleans refugeees  (Read 15635 times)

Guest_Randy

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New Orleans refugeees
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2005, 12:58:18 PM »
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Randy,

Trying to spin doesn't work with me in case you've ever noticed.  Never said that nobody stayed to loot, just stated that the assumption that "many" stayed for THAT reason is bogus.  Many people stayed for various reason, some because of poor information, some to protect what little they had, some because they had no choice and so on and so forth.  I'm sure there are those who stayed for the opportunity to take advantage of the situation and some probably took advantage of the situation when it presented itself.  

You can't use your broad brush to paint portraits like you have done in the past, it's wrong and you'll get called on it now and then.
I think it's interesting that you want to talk to me about "spinning" -- when did I say "many" were "most?"  I think there were MANY who stayed to loot -- the same kind of people who think that celebrating is setting cars on fire and beating people up.  I'd say there were MANY involved in that too -- however, I never said that MOST stayed to do that.  I think probably a majority stayed because they thought leaving would be worse than staying.  And frankly, at this point, I don't know which was worse -- leaving for someplace like the dome or staying in their homes have having to be rescued.

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2005, 12:59:18 PM »
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despite all of that, I think the most disturbing image for me was yesterday, they showed a young child - maybe 4 or 5 - that was saved, no shoes no shirt, being led by an adult when he stops and tell the adult, "My mommy is dead, she got pushed in the water by somebody."  I couldnt even imagine my four year old having to be left like that...
That's really rough.  Sometimes because of life's pressure we forget how good we really have it.  I remember I was standing in line at Sav-On to pick up a prescription durring the flu season when it really hit me how good I really have it.  There was a guy in line ahead of me with his little girl, about 3 to 5 years old, she looked sooooooo sick.  She had obviously been hit hard by the flu, poor thing was miserable.  Her dad was in line to talk to the pharmacist about what he should do.

I thought about how I've always had medical coverage for all my kids.  More importantly I've always known what I needed to do to care for them in any situation.  My parents were illegal immigrants who didn't always know what to do for me when certain situation arouse.  I really didn't start going to the doctor on a regular basis until I was about 15.  Before then I went only when I got really sick.

A roof over their heads and food on the table were always a "given" along with medical coverage for my kids, I've just been fortunate in that regard.  I take that for granted now and then.
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2005, 01:05:28 PM »
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Randy,

Trying to spin doesn't work with me in case you've ever noticed.  Never said that nobody stayed to loot, just stated that the assumption that "many" stayed for THAT reason is bogus.  Many people stayed for various reason, some because of poor information, some to protect what little they had, some because they had no choice and so on and so forth.  I'm sure there are those who stayed for the opportunity to take advantage of the situation and some probably took advantage of the situation when it presented itself. 

You can't use your broad brush to paint portraits like you have done in the past, it's wrong and you'll get called on it now and then.
I think it's interesting that you want to talk to me about "spinning" -- when did I say "many" were "most?"  I think there were MANY who stayed to loot -- the same kind of people who think that celebrating is setting cars on fire and beating people up.  I'd say there were MANY involved in that too -- however, I never said that MOST stayed to do that.  I think probably a majority stayed because they thought leaving would be worse than staying.  And frankly, at this point, I don't know which was worse -- leaving for someplace like the dome or staying in their homes have having to be rescued.
Randy,

Please point out the term "most" in my posts that you are referring to.

Thanks.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Guest_Randy

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New Orleans refugeees
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2005, 01:34:03 PM »
I've got to get used to the WOW's version of politically correct:

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I'm sure there are those who stayed for the opportunity to take advantage of the situation

just can't say there were many who did -- even if that comment is correct, right?

Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2005, 02:04:26 PM »
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Part of the problem is that they were NOT told "Run for your lives." They were told to leave but if they chose to stay to stock up for a few days. That is not the right message to send, not to mention they were not sure which direction the storm would take. That's one reason relief help was slow getting there, you have to position your resources out of harms way, since the storm path was not definately known the assests had to be kept way back.

When the mayor (or was it the governor?) is on television before this, stating that it's likely that the "die-hards will die hard," how much more obvious do you have to make the message "RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"?  Make no mistake - the message was out there.  This is a city that's below sea level, in imminent danger of flooding, with officials saying, "Get out while you can!"  Granted that government officials are generally idiots, but, call me crazy, this is exactly the kind of warning I'd look at heeding!

My "disaster waiting to happen" is an earthquake on the New Madrid fault.  My parents, my brother and his family - essentially all of my family - are less than 30 miles away from New Madrid.  Now if there's a way to "track earthquakes" the way there is to track hurricanes, if they hear of an earthquake coming their way, then, by all means, they need to get the heck out of there!  My parents have lived their entire lives there, but if there's reputable news that a problem is coming, and the governor got on the television and said, "There's going to be a tremendous loss of life among those folks who decide to stay," then by all means, Mom and Dad, GET OUT OF THERE!  I don't care what you're leaving behind!  Unless you're willing to *DIE* for it all, then LEAVE!

And you know what?  It'll be my brother who'll stay.  He'll say, "Somebody's got to take care of the farm" - as if he's going to hold the entire place together.  I can hear what he'd say right now.  He'd scoff at the skeptics, and at the earthquake experts, dismissing them with, "they don't know anything."  He'd talk about how it's the people who can't take care of themselves that need to leave - "not people like me."  And he'll convince my sister-in-law, my nieces, and my parents to stay.

There are TONS of people as "indestructable" as my brother in *EVERY* town in every nation on the planet.  They don't listen to warnings.  They don't consider their own safety.  And trust me, there are/were some in New Orleans, who, against all advice, decided, "Oh, this won't be that bad.  It's nothing I can't handle."

It's not hard to feel sorry for folks like that, but it is hard to refer to them as "innocent victims."  "Innocent victims" are the heroes who stayed because it was their job to stay.  "Innocent victims" are the people who fled, and had their houses burlarized or washed away.  Innocent victims are the people who truly COULD NOT flee.  Calling a person who "chose" to stay an "innocent victim" is demeaning to the people who'd have given ANYTHING to be able to have a choice.

 
Joe

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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2005, 02:34:07 PM »
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I've got to get used to the WOW's version of politically correct:

Quote
I'm sure there are those who stayed for the opportunity to take advantage of the situation

just can't say there were many who did -- even if that comment is correct, right?
Randy,

Please point out the term "most" in my posts that you are referring to.

Thanks.

P.S.
PC really applies to me, yea...mmmmkay.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Guest_Randy

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New Orleans refugeees
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2005, 02:59:31 PM »
I guess I should ask you your defination of "many" -- it obviously doesn't jive with mine!

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2005, 03:20:17 PM »
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I guess I should ask you your defination of "many" -- it obviously doesn't jive with mine!
Randy,

Please point out the term "most" in my posts that you are referring to.

Thanks.
 
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Skandery

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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2005, 12:40:54 PM »
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"RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"? Make no mistake - the message was out there.

Did you expect them to run on foot, Joe?

Maybe the 300 Ib woman with 4 children all under the age of 5 should've picked up and started jogging down the freeway when the "officials" told her to high tail.  You see, for most of the inner city New Orleans denizens, an automobile isn't a luxury they have.  I'm going to guess that there are a heck of a lot more of these unfortunate people with no means to, how did the "officials" put it "Run for your lives", than the plain old stubborn people with every advantage to save themselves but simply chose to ignore the warnings.    

From where I'm sitting I'm going to blame the "officials" for not having enough transportation ready to go when the s*** did hit the fan.  There is no reason for a fleet of 30 schoolbuses from nearby townships to be sitting around a parking lot waiting for the "officials" to give them orders on where to go and what to do.  I'm going to blame the "officials" for not having the required man-power, the organization, or the preparation necessary for what you say they knew was a grievous situation.  And lastly I'm going to blame the head "official" in charge who decided to sit on his hands for four days while people were wading in feces infested waters getting sick from disease, malnutrition, and cold.

Make no mistake there were "innocent victims" to spare in this tragedy, and by the time all is said and done with "Blameless Culprits!"        
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Offline Joe Vancil

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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2005, 01:51:24 PM »
Skander,

     And if I had 4 children all under age 5, you can bet that the moment the word came down to run, I'm going to be the FIRST person to run.  To the local bus station...airport...church...anywhere I can, because I'm smart enough to know that the government isn't going to help me any more than it ever did in the past.  Though it takes my life savings, I'm going to get the hell out of there!  Heck, I've got my kids to save!

     See, I have precious little faith in the government to do anything but take my money.  They're *REALLY* efficient at that.  Anything else, and I figure bureaucracy is going to rule the day, which means I'm going to have to fend for myself.  And in such a case, I'm going to be the FIRST in line to get whatever help is available at moment 1.  And if that means running on foot, then YES, that's what I'll do, and trust in SOMEONE on the way out helping me.  Somebody is going to be passing along the way and have a little extra room and a little compassion in their heart.

     I trust in the good nature of the ordinary citizen FAR more than the kind and caring nature of the government.  In a crisis situation?  Even more so.

 
Joe

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rickortreat

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« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2005, 03:14:46 PM »
Joe's the one who got the lesson straight.  You cannot rely on the government, local, state or federal to do the right thing or to save you.

Obviously the poorer you are, the less resources you have, the more vulnerable you are.  Stupidity also plays a part,  when you know a Cat 5 hurricane is comming, you get out of town any way you can.

But let this be a lesson to you, if you are in Cali when an earthquake hits, or Miami when a hurricane comes along.  The one you can rely on to save yourself is you.

There's more than enough blame to go around, from Bush down to the Mayor.  I wonder  how many of these incompetants will loose their jobs over this.  Heads should role.

We rely on government to do the planning to deal with disasters like this.  The newly formed and funded Homeland Security people should have been coordinating efforts before the hurricane landed.  The army corp of engineers asked for funding to upgrade and repair the levies, congress appropriated the money, and Bush diverted it to the war in Iraq.

If you perfomed like this in your job, you'd be fired.  I expect our government to work the same way.  Incompetance should not be rewarded.  

Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2005, 03:38:31 PM »
FEMA use to be an independant organization with tons of funding.  The Bush administration in its infinate wisdom merged FEMA with Homeland security who then diverted alot of FEMA's resources to "other" projects.

One of the "alleged" main reasons for the formation of Homeland security is to integrate and promote information exchange amoungst the different gov agencies who need to respond to emergencies.  The memo's that are slowly leaking out to the public show that information is still not getting around.  Not to mention the head of FEMA memo'd his resources that they had a couple of days to get going.  Their primary task was to put on a "good face" for gov officials and the public and give the impression of help.

How about just HELPING ASAP you stinking MORON!  I hope the voters of this country are happy with their choice and those that sat home on their arses instead of voting are happy as well.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Ted

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« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2005, 04:01:53 PM »
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Joe's the one who got the lesson straight.  You cannot rely on the government, local, state or federal to do the right thing or to save you.

Obviously the poorer you are, the less resources you have, the more vulnerable you are.  Stupidity also plays a part,  when you know a Cat 5 hurricane is comming, you get out of town any way you can.

But let this be a lesson to you, if you are in Cali when an earthquake hits, or Miami when a hurricane comes along.  The one you can rely on to save yourself is you.

There's more than enough blame to go around, from Bush down to the Mayor.  I wonder  how many of these incompetants will loose their jobs over this.  Heads should role.

We rely on government to do the planning to deal with disasters like this.  The newly formed and funded Homeland Security people should have been coordinating efforts before the hurricane landed.  The army corp of engineers asked for funding to upgrade and repair the levies, congress appropriated the money, and Bush diverted it to the war in Iraq.

If you perfomed like this in your job, you'd be fired.  I expect our government to work the same way.  Incompetance should not be rewarded.
The story of the little boy who lost is mommy hit me hard. WoW, this week I had similar experience. I was driving my little family (wife and two boys: 2 1/2 and 2 months) home, and when we pulled into the carport of our crappy little three bedroom, $120K house, my two-year-old yelled, "Yay, we're home." I think it was mostly in response to what I've seen on TV this week, but I was suddenly so grateful that my little boys have a warm, dry place where they feel safe.

And that poor little boy's story takes my gratitude to another level. I'm so glad my boys have a Mommy who loves them and takes care of them. Beyond death or serious injury, my greatest fear for my boys is that they'll have to grow up without her or that they'll ever have to look around and wonder where she is and if she's ever coming back.

So much went wrong with Katrina. So many people made mistakes. It's hard for me to be an armchair disaster relief critic because I know so little about it. But here are two things I think I know:

1. The U.S. can move troops a lot faster than we did this time, even if the state gov is slow to request them.
2. I'm not impressed with the guys from FEMA and Homeland Security (At this point, I kind of wish we had the NY guy who hired an illegal, don't you guys? At least he had direct experience with this kind of disaster.) See the following quotes:

"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans, virtually a city that has been destroyed, things are going relatively well." —FEMA Director Michael Brown, Sept. 1, 2005

"I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the convention center who don't have food and water." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, on NPR's "All Things Considered," Sept. 1, 2005

"Well, I think if you look at what actually happened, I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.' Because if you recall, the storm moved to the east and then continued on and appeared to pass with considerable damage but nothing worse." –Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, blaming media coverage for his failings, "Meet the Press," Sept. 4, 2005

"Louisiana is a city that is largely under water." —Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, news conference, Sept. 3, 2005

"...those who are stranded, who chose not to evacuate, who chose not to leave the city..." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, on New Orleans residents who did not evacuate, CNN interview, Sept. 1, 2005

"We just learned of the convention center – we being the federal government – today." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, to ABC's Ted Koppel, Sept. 1, 2005, to which Koppel responded " Don't you guys watch television? Don't you guys listen to the radio? Our reporters have been reporting on it for more than just today."

"I actually think the security is pretty darn good. There's some really bad people out there that are causing some problems, and it seems to me that every time a bad person wants to scream or cause a problem, there's somebody there with a camera to stick it in their face." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, CNN interview, Sept. 2, 2005

"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans." –FEMA Director Michael Brown, arguing that the victims bear some responsibility, CNN interview, Sept. 1, 2005


Okay, and I had to throw in this mindblowing remark by Wolf Blitzer.

"You simply get chills every time you see these poor individuals...many of these people, almost all of them that we see are so poor and they are so black, and this is going to raise lots of questions for people who are watching this story unfold." —CNN's Wolf Blitzer, on New Orleans' hurricane evacuees, Sept. 1, 2005

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/current...inaquotes_1.htm


One last thing for all of you guys:

Put together a 72-hour emergency preparedness kit! Don't count of the gov't to bail you out in a disaster. If you want a really good list of stuff to include, email me.
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Offline WayOutWest

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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2005, 04:10:07 PM »
Anybody catch Barbara Bush's comments?

Jeeze!  

The people in the Superdome were poor anyway so they are much better off, it's been good for them.

Not an exact quote but that was the message.  I guess the idiot doesn't fall far from the Bush.
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
"Our story is real history"
"Not his story"

"My people's culture was strong, it was pure"
"And if not for that white greed"
"It would've endured"

"Laker hate causes blindness"

Offline Skandery

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« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2005, 04:21:12 PM »
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Skander,

And if I had 4 children all under age 5, you can bet that the moment the word came down to run, I'm going to be the FIRST person to run. To the local bus station...airport...church...anywhere I can, because I'm smart enough to know that the government isn't going to help me any more than it ever did in the past. Though it takes my life savings, I'm going to get the hell out of there! Heck, I've got my kids to save!

See, I have precious little faith in the government to do anything but take my money. They're *REALLY* efficient at that. Anything else, and I figure bureaucracy is going to rule the day, which means I'm going to have to fend for myself. And in such a case, I'm going to be the FIRST in line to get whatever help is available at moment 1. And if that means running on foot, then YES, that's what I'll do, and trust in SOMEONE on the way out helping me. Somebody is going to be passing along the way and have a little extra room and a little compassion in their heart.

I trust in the good nature of the ordinary citizen FAR more than the kind and caring nature of the government. In a crisis situation? Even more so.

Your point, that the citizens who stayed are to be blamed, would be more valid if Hurricane Katrina was the thing that did the damage.  It wasn't.  New Orleans, in fact, was only hit with the edge of the Hurricane.  Had Katrina hit N.O. dead on it would've wiped the city and all surrounding area off the face of the planet.  Those stubborn citizens would have died.  What caused most of the damage to the city was the levy breaking and the Lake flooding the city.  This did not happen right away.  

Instead of making sure to get the transportation in place to evacuate the entire city, they decided to sit around and wait.  Meaning people who had the foresight to up and leave their homes and get to a bus station found that there were no buses at the station.  Then the levy broke.  Some became trapped, even died, but most made it to several locations where they were told transportation was on the way.  It didn't come, one, two, three, four days later.  

So 1) we failed at getting people out of harms way (100,000 people would've had to take your suggestion to get on the freeway on foot, don't know that the people in bumper to bumper traffic "Running for their Lives" would be generous to ALL those people), 2) we failed to move people to drier areas when the worst case scenario happened and the levy broke, 3) we failed at responding in time knowing FULL WELL the conditions these people were in for a prolonged amount of time.  Way more people died, or are sick and dying than should have if even the laziest, most careless government in the world had an iota's sense of urgency.          
"But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias."