Pacers-Indy suspension of game

[Reality]

By the time you read this you may or may not have seen it on SportCenter.
All i can say from watching it live is it came out of almost nowhere.  The game was all but over.  Its not my intention to be the 1st to post on it, only saying i saw it live and here is one possible angle.

I have no intention to say exactly what the intentions of players were, but I can tell you this is what i think might have been an initial spark.  I did not tape and game talking heads Bill Waldo and co did not replay the particular play or talk about this play I have in mind.  Nor did Sportcenter -yet.

This is the play that i think began the whole thing.
1:24 left Indy up 93-82.  Artest cuts to the hoop and recieves a pass.  He seems to have an easy bucket.  Ben Wallace blocks (and i think fouls maybe a little hard) Artests layup/dunk attempt.  It seemed like a foul, an intentional foul like maybe BenWa didn't like Artest rubbing a little salt in with a Power Jam at only 1:24 left.  Anywho no foul call and again, I didnt tape, maybe it wasnt a foul.  But it looked like one and it looked like Artest was not too thrilled with the Powerfoul.  

No biggie they play on.  BenWa gets stipped by Croshere and lobs it up for an Artest dunk.

This next play you will see about 2000Xs.  
46 or so tics left.  Pacers are now up 97-82.  Ben Wa takes the ball to rack.  Artest fouls him intentionally.  The announcers all agree it was not an overly hard foul.  No way a flagrant.  My take is i think Wallace felt it was a diss foul, in fact i know he did.  With the score what it was he felt an intentional foul was bogus.  Why am i telling you this?  Because I think Artest thought the same thing about his own shot attempt being blocked (possibly hacked) by Ben Wa with 1:24 left.  Could be.  Thats just a thought.

What follows after the Artest foul on Wallace, well just turn on any sports station and you will be seeing it Friday night and the rest of the weekend.  What you may or may not hear is that Jim Gray was sitting two feet from Artest and relates: Artest was lying on the scorers table chilling (my word) when "a fan threw 1st a beer and then a bottle at Artest."  Artest then makes the collosal mistake of chasing the man into the stands.

What follows, you'll all see it.  Metal chairs flying and hitting people.  Punches thrown by Artest and Oneal and ?? at fans. This is going to be a huge mess.  ESPNs cameras caught a bunch of it.

[guest-koast]

Ill upload the video of it later and post a link to get it so everyone can comment on it.

I'm torn.  Ron Artest just commited a hard foul.  Something that would have been hardly a big deal in the 80s.  He was even some what cool about the whole deal until the drink hit him square in the face.  Still shouldnt have went straight to the stands and got crazy.  The other two guys he socked deserved it tho.  That guy in the blue punched him first and the two guys who stepped to him on the court obviously were looking for trouble.  Where the hell is the security btw?

Uhhh what the hell was Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal thinking?  Spurs fans still want him back?  LOL.

[Derek Bodner]

http://www.phillyarena.net/nbafight.wmv

doesn't show anything preceeding the fight though.

[rickortreat]

Absolutly appalling.  Artest should not have gone into the stands.  The police would have arrested the dope who threw things at him and that probably would have been it.

Both Wallace and Artest are pretty immature for adults.  Good players, but emotionally children.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.  

One of the coolest things about the NBA is how close you can get to the players and the action at a game.

But fans should stay in the stands and the players on the floor.  

What ever happened to sportsmanship? :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  

[SPURSX3]

Absolutly appalling.  Artest should not have gone into the stands.  The police would have arrested the dope who threw things at him and that probably would have been it.

Both Wallace and Artest are pretty immature for adults.  Good players, but emotionally children.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.  

One of the coolest things about the NBA is how close you can get to the players and the action at a game.

But fans should stay in the stands and the players on the floor.  

What ever happened to sportsmanship? :cry:  :cry:  :cry:

I think it is easy for people to say how stupid it is, but considering he got hit in the face with something, i mean come on, how level headed would YOU have been.  What Artest did was wrong, but can i blame him for getting out into the fans for it?  i dont know, i dont know how i would have reacted myself.  raionally, it would be best to leave the area entirely and let the police handle it, as a man - i probably would have been pissed and looked for whoever hit me.  As Crazy as Artest is, he was calm until that fan hit him with the cup.  the fans should be dealt wth as much responsibity as artest, jackson, oneal, wallace.  I mean come on, you mean to tell me that wallace isnt responsible for starting the entire chain reaction?  oh the poor world champions are about to lose another game why not get overly upset and start a fight right??


in all i trhink what ron did was wrong, but it would not have been started if ben hadnt pushed him in the face and gone after him like he did.

[ziggy]

Lets lay the reponsibility right where it should be, with the Detroit Pistons organization and their lack of security.  The Pacers come into their building and they should expect to to be safe.  Ben Wallace didn't start the riot, the Pistons fans did.
Artest tried to stay out of it.  He walked away, and layed on the scorers table.  He didn't escalate anything.  He got hit in the face with debris from the stands.  An indefinite suspension is bullshyte.
The Pistons fans attacked Artest once he went into the stands, and there was no security anywhere.  Steven Jackson had justification for defending Artest from the  fans that were attacking Artest, even if Artest was stupid and went into the stands.
A fan came onto the floor and threatened Artest, and Artest should be able to defend himself.  Jermaine O'Neal went to the aid of his teammate.  Where was the security?

So lets get this straight.  Ben Wallace started the fracas.  Artest walked away, and avoided the confrontation.  Fans attacked Artest, Freddie Jones, Steven Jackson and 3 Pacers get suspended indefintely, and 1 Piston does.

To me the best punishment is the Pistons should automatically forfeit the next Pacers vs. Pistons game in Detroit, since they can't provide reasonable security.  On top of that the Piston's organization should be fined an additional $500,000.  All the Pistons and the Pacers get docked one games pay for the game that will be forfeited.  Make clear to the Pacers organization that when they meet in Detroit next, it will be top notch security, with no incidents, or the Pacers will be fined $1,000,000 and the following Pistons/Indy game in Indy will be a forfeit for Detroit and everybody will be fined one games pay.

Wallace gets 2 additional games for the shove.  Artest gets 2 more for going into the stands.  Jackson and O'Neal shouldn't be suspended at all.

[Reality]

I'm talking about just this specific incident(s) on the court.
On the court, after Artest and Oneal have come down from the stands, they take turns blasting the guy with the Pistons jersey.  I did not see the guy with the Pistons jersey

a) threaten Artest.  As Artest and Piston Jersey Wearer approach each other, get within three feet of each other, I do not see Piston Jersey wearer raise his hands at all.  What i do see is Artest twisting his waist and cocking his arm back like a pro boxer or an NFL quarterback rearing back to throw, then proceding to twist forward concluding with a full momentum jamming of his elbow right smack into Piston Wearers jaw.  Knocks him to the ground.

B)  Now on the ground, Piston Jersey Wearers fall is broken by Piston security.  Or maybe right after he falls.  Piston Security puts his arms behind Piston Jersey wearer and was going to help boost him up.  Enter Jermaine Oneal whom you cant even see in the picture.  Until he comes running in and without breaking stride cocks. rears, and delivers a full on roundhouse fist to Piston Wearers face.

No way shape or form that can be called "provoked" or self defense, even if Piston wearer was on the court.  "Punishment" (Artest full on elbow then Oneal full on roundhouse to seated Piston wearer) does not even fit the "Crime".  "Crime" being Piston Jersey Wearer walking on to the court.

I know the defense lawyers will spin it that on the court Oneal and Artest felt their lives threatened by Piston Jersey wearer.  Unless some incredible info comes out I dont buy that one iota.  They assaulted Piston Jersey Wearer.
 
2.  In the stands.  While true fans were hitting back at Artest/Jackson/Oneal, i see Artest and Jackson both initiating the blows.  Did Artest even get the "right guy", that is the thrower of the bottle?  I dont think he did.  Jackson swings and kicks at a guy who looks like no threat at all.

It is ironic that Artest walked away from the whole BenWa shove.  Howver, when he chose to lie on the scorers table, i felt that was just bait for drunk/and or riled up Piston customers.  Not faulting Artest for lying there, just saying a walk over towards or to the Piston bench would have been the absolute best.

[ziggy]

It is ironic that Artest walked away from the whole BenWa shove.  However, when he chose to lie on the scorers table, i felt that was just bait for drunk/and or riled up Piston customers.  Not faulting Artest for lying there, just saying a walk over towards or to the Piston bench would have been the absolute best.

Reality,

So Artest just baited them into throwing crap at him?  It would have been so much better if he hadn't laid on the table, but rather gone over to the bench?  Artest is no Angel, and he shouldn't have gone into the stands, but he didn't escalate it, he didn't bait anybody.

The Pacers were being attacked from all around by Piston fans. They were being hit with flying debris, being sucker punched in the head and from behind. There was little to no security anywhere. A fan walks onto the court, and your first throught is he is going to attack me. The "jersey wearing drunk ass knuckle fu#%" clearly said some things, and made no effort to avoid a confrontation. It was clear he wanted to get in on it.

You have 15 to 20 members of the Pacers organization and 10,000 to 12,000 Piston fans. I am sorry, but I will give Artest and O'Neal the benefit of the doubt for popping some stupid arse in the mouth.

[Reality]

Reality,

So Artest just baited them into throwing crap at him?  It would have been so much better if he hadn't laid on the table, but rather gone over to the bench?  Artest is no Angel, and he shouldn't have gone into the stands, but he didn't escalate it, he didn't bait anybody.

The Pacers were being attacked from all around by Piston fans. They were being hit with flying debris, being sucker punched in the head and from behind. There was little to no security anywhere. A fan walks onto the court, and your first throught is he is going to attack me. The "jersey wearing drunk ass knuckle fu#%" clearly said some things, and made no effort to avoid a confrontation. It was clear he wanted to get in on it.

 [/quote]
 I did not say he baited them into throwing things, i am saying Piston Stupid Fan took his lying that close as bait to themselve(s).

He did not escalate it by going into the stands?  He certainly did.  Point here is not whether or not it was justified, but if you are saying his going into the stands did not escalate it......

We agree that had he not gone into stands, good chance that Drunk/Irate/Stupid PistonFans just rant a little more, maybe toss a beer towards the Pacers bench but it ends, game over, the end.

PacerFans did not start wailing until after Artest headlocked and wailed on 4 eyes.

Again, we agree, Artest does not go up in stands, it in all likelyhood ends.
This is not a condemnation of Artest.

Security?  They had one of the most peaceful NBA finals ever, according to Police rep.  Supposed to assign 2 security people/police for every one Stupid Arse?  This was a mini riot.  How can Palace security possibly forsee that?

[guest-koast]

Whoa...Reality, that piston fan jumped and pushed out his chest like some dumb little gorilla with a Detroit Piston's jersey on.  He and his friend did what us younger guys call 'Steppin up'.  Ron Artest reacted faster.  They walked onto the court like they had a problem.  Where is the punishment for that?  I thought all arena's stepped up security ever since that first base coach got beat up?

I think they all should be suspended, the 5 fans involved in the whole ordeal (the guy in the blue, the two in the stands at first, and the 2 guys on the court) all should be punished somehow, and the Pacers need to feel some heat from the NBA front office for lack of security.  Security not only for the fans but for the players too.  If people expect NBA players to be more professional then the people need to look at their fellow NBA fans.  If players are going to be held to a standard so should fans.  Sit in your seat, hoot and hollar, but dont turn into a beer jugging meat head.  A simple boo would have worked.

[guest-koast]

Opps above I meant the Detroit organization not the Pacers, my bad... Also Reality,   You hate the Lakers but I don't think you would ever start yelling racial slurs and throwing beer at Laker players.  I think everyone agrees fans can heckle but need to be adults.  How immature is it to throw food/beer at players because of a foul.    It still is just a game.  What the fans did was take it to the extreme.   Dunno what the hell Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal were thinking but Artest (hate to say it) was not the person who started this problem.
 

[SPURSX3]

Opps above I meant the Detroit organization not the Pacers, my bad... Also Reality,   You hate the Lakers but I don't think you would ever start yelling racial slurs and throwing beer at Laker players.  I think everyone agrees fans can heckle but need to be adults.  How immature is it to throw food/beer at players because of a foul.    It still is just a game.  What the fans did was take it to the extreme.   Dunno what the hell Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal were thinking but Artest (hate to say it) was not the person who started this problem.

I thin it is odd that we are defending artest, but the fact is he is not to blame for this shyte.  lack of security, wallaces lack of composure, and miserable fans are all to blame.  i agree the pistons organization should be blamed for this mostly - WHERE THE HELL WAS SECURITY??  then again if we really give a damn about this horrible incident we should really be emailing the nba and letting them know how we feel about this.

[Guest_Randy]

First, this is a HORRIBLE incident -- the kind that NO NBA fan EVER wants to see.  

But let me share my 2 cents:

1)  Players can NOT go into the stands.  I think Artest and Jackson have to get BIG TIME suspensions for going into the stands.  They just DON'T belong there.  They left the court, their area, and went into the stands, and area that is off limits.  5-7 games for going into the stands.  The NBA needs to make it VERY clear that the stands are off limits and that going there is going to get you MORE than the 5-7 games given to these players.

2)  Next, the NBA needs to own to it's part in this whole deal.  Perhaps if the NBA were more interested in protecting it's players than it was in making a buck, then fans would KNOW they can't pull this kind of crap.  The NBA needs to do the following, IMO:  a)  fine Detroit for it's lack of security; B) insist that Detroit revoke the tickets (and they can't ever get tickets again) of those who threw things or stepped onto the court; c) file suit against the individuals, on behalf of it's players, who either threw things or stepped onto the court -- and part of this suit would include a lifetime restraining order from EVER coming to an NBA game again.  Just as the NBA makes it CLEAR that players cannot go into the stands, they also need to make it clear that fans do not have the right to go onto the court or throw things at players, coaches, etc.  Therefore suspensions against players who threw punches at fans ON the court, would be only a game or so (same with Ben Wallace who started it).

There is SOOO much room for blame all around here:

Detroit is to blame - security was NO where in sight -- that's just inexcusable in these days.  Dumars needs to apologize to the Pacers organization and players for their fault in not providing the protection for the Pacers and work diligently in prosecuting ANY fan who threw things at the court, walked onto the court or came over to throw punches at Jackson or Artest.  Don't point fingers at other people or organizations -- take responsibility for YOUR part in all of this.

Indy is to blame -- players should already know that they can't go into the stands.  There is NO excuse for this -- no matter what is said.  Apologize for YOUR part in all of this.

The NBA is to blame -- for not making an example of previous people who have thrown things at players, coaches, etc. or thrown things onto the court.  The NBA has to make it CRYSTAL clear that the protection of it's players is as important to them as season ticket owners and those who pay big bucks to sit close to the game.  The NBA has failed in this respect -- fans feel that they have a right, not only to heckle, but to do whatever they want to players of rival teams.  This HAS to be stopped.  The NBA needs to step up and apologize for not having taken PREVIOUS steps to condemn and deter these type of occurances and stop them for good.  It needs to condemn fans who threw items at players, onto the floor and stepped on the court.  It needs to make sure, however, that while telling players it is WRONG for them to hit anyone, a fan on the court is treated as a PLAYER -- not a fan and therefore a punch thrown is given the same judgement as is one thrown at another player -- not a larger one because it is a fan (unless it happens in the stand).  

The NBA, IMO, is the key in this whole incidence because it needs to do the following:

1)  Let players KNOW that they can't go into the stands
2)  Let organizations KNOW that they expect better security
3)  Let fans KNOW that they will be prosecuted
4)  Let players KNOW that they are protected as well as possible.

This whole thing is VERY disgusting but if these steps are taken it's not going to get better -- it's going to get worse!

[Reality]

Whoa...Reality, that piston fan jumped and pushed out his chest like some dumb little gorilla with a Detroit Piston's jersey on.  He and his friend did what us younger guys call 'Steppin up'.  Ron Artest reacted faster.  They walked onto the court like they had a problem.

You're really adding to my point.  Punk Jersey wearer wanted to step up.  But to what degree.  He didn't raise his fists, IMO he posed very little threat to Artest.  Artest did not react "faster", he just simply clocked him.  Punk should not have been on floor, absolutely agree.  My point is its way overkill what Artest did.  If you dont think so then how about shortly after when Punk is sitting on his hind end on the floor.  Oneal comes running over and smacks him.  How was chubby, drunk Steppin Up Punk a threat in any way shape or form when sitting on floor with Pistons Security holding him from behind.  Both Artest and Oneal could have easily, reasonably walked right by Drunk Floor Steppin Up Punk.

We agree Punk and others who came on floor should be prosecuted.  Just as stands are off limits for players, floor is off limits for fans.

<How immature is it to throw food/beer at players because of a foul. It still is just a game. What the fans did was take it to the extreme.

Very.  Thus why respond to it as a player?

At SAS-Lakers game in Nov of 2003-2004 season, I got Joe Heckler sitting right behind me.  Babbled on every single play.  While you Lakers might think I got just what i deserved, ALL the surrounding Laker fans could not stand this guy.  W.O.W. could not stand this guys babbling and WOW is not thin skinned.  At halftime I was able to switch seats and get a ways away from him.  Had not WOW been willing to switch seats, i would definately approached Staples/Lakers management and asked to have Hecklers Piehole closed.  In rapping with the surrounding seated people, ALL Laker season ticket holders, they said it was the 1st game he was in that seat and they could not stand his mouth.

Absolutely paying customers as well as players should have standards to live up to.  I'm wondering if metal chair thrower at Piston games is caught on tape.

[ziggy]

Whoa...Reality, that piston fan jumped and pushed out his chest like some dumb little gorilla with a Detroit Piston's jersey on.  He and his friend did what us younger guys call 'Steppin up'.  Ron Artest reacted faster.  They walked onto the court like they had a problem.

You're really adding to my point.  Punk Jersey wearer wanted to step up.  But to what degree.  He didn't raise his fists, IMO he posed very little threat to Artest.  Artest did not react "faster", he just simply clocked him.  Punk should not have been on floor, absolutely agree.  My point is its way overkill what Artest did.  If you dont think so then how about shortly after when Punk is sitting on his hind end on the floor.  Oneal comes running over and smacks him.  How was chubby, drunk Steppin Up Punk a threat in any way shape or form when sitting on floor with Pistons Security holding him from behind.  Both Artest and Oneal could have easily, reasonably walked right by Drunk Floor Steppin Up Punk.

We agree Punk and others who came on floor should be prosecuted.  Just as stands are off limits for players, floor is off limits for fans.

<How immature is it to throw food/beer at players because of a foul. It still is just a game. What the fans did was take it to the extreme.

Very.  Thus why respond to it as a player?

At SAS-Lakers game in Nov of 2003-2004 season, I got Joe Heckler sitting right behind me.  Babbled on every single play.  While you Lakers might think I got just what i deserved, ALL the surrounding Laker fans could not stand this guy.  W.O.W. could not stand this guys babbling and WOW is not thin skinned.  At halftime I was able to switch seats and get a ways away from him.  Had not WOW been willing to switch seats, i would definately approached Staples/Lakers management and asked to have Hecklers Piehole closed.  In rapping with the surrounding seated people, ALL Laker season ticket holders, they said it was the 1st game he was in that seat and they could not stand his mouth.

Absolutely paying customers as well as players should have standards to live up to.  I'm wondering if metal chair thrower at Piston games is caught on tape.

So how does Ben Wallace deserve to get an indefinite suspension for a shove and throwing a towel?  Based upon history we are talking 1 to 2 games max.  Big Ben didn't start a riot, he didn't egg anybody on, yet he is suspended indefinitely?