Author Topic: Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?  (Read 3504 times)

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« on: August 29, 2004, 09:28:01 PM »
Should the Brazillian Marathon runner Vanderlei de Lima be given a gold medal?
Also the South Korean gymnast who was burned by the score keepers?

Marathon story below:

Cornelius Horan, right, a defrocked Irish priest, grabs Vanderlei de Lima of Brazil as he leads the men's marathon Sunday. Lima was delayed several seconds by the attack and appeared to have been injured. He finished third.
The Associated Press
Updated: 8:36 p.m. ET Aug. 29, 2004ATHENS, Greece - Stafano Baldini of Italy took the lead two miles from the finish to win the gold medal and American Meb Keflezighi took a surprising silver Sunday in an Olympic marathon disrupted by a costumed intruder who grabbed the race leader with about three miles to go.

 
Vanderlei de Lima of Brazil, whose lead had been slowly shrinking, was pushed to the curb by a man dressed in green beret, red kilt and knee-high green socks. De Lima was able to get back into the race, but he appeared to have been injured in the incident. He lost several more seconds and eventually was overtaken by Baldini and Keflezighi.

De Lima, who took the bronze, drew big cheers from the crowd at the finish line in Panthinaiko Stadium — the beautiful marble structure that was the site of the first Olympics of the modern era 108 years ago. He smiled broadly, spread his arms like wings and weaved from side to side as he crossed the line.

Baldini, 33, finished in 2 hours, 10 minutes and 54 seconds. He waved his hands in celebration, then dropped to his knees in exhaustion after his final lap on the narrow track inside the stadium. Baldini is the former European marathon champion and two-time world marathon silver medalist.

 
De Lima pulled away from the pack a little over halfway through the competition, which — over difficult and often steep terrain — traced the ancient route that gives the race its name.

De Lima, a two-time Pan American champion who was 47th in the 1996 Olympic marathon, stretched the lead to as much as 46 seconds before Baldini, Keflezighi, and Kenyan Paul Tergat began to narrow the gap.

Should de Lima be awarded a gold medal?  
 
Live Vote  
 Would Brazilian runner Vanderlei de Lima have won the Olympic marathon if he hadn't been attacked by a fan?   * 25950 responses  
Yes
63%  
No
37%  
 
Should de Lima be awarded a gold medal?   * 27124 responses  
Yes
51%  
 
 No
49%  
 
Not a scientifically valid survey.  As the runners went through the streets of Athens, to the cheers of flag-waving onlookers, the intruder came from the runner’s left and pushed him to the side, all the way to the curb and into the crowd. It appeard that spectators freed Lima before police arrived and took the intruder into custody.

The intruder had a piece of paper attached to his back bearing a message that included Biblical references.

Police identified him as Cornelius Horan, a defrocked Irish priest. In July 2003, Horan, in a costume similar to the one he wore Sunday, ran onto the track at the British Grand Prix in the middle of the race and stayed there for more than 20 seconds, forcing racers to swerve around him. He was carrying a sign that said, “read the Bible — the Bible is always right.”

The Brazilian track federation protested the result and sought a duplicate gold medal for Lima, but the appeal was rejected. De Lima said he would have won the race if he hadn’t been attacked.

“I was scared, because I didn’t know what could happen to me, whether he was armed with a knife, a revolver, or something and whether he was going to kill me,” de Lima  said after the race. “That’s what cost me the gold medal.”

Horan pleaded guilty in England to running onto the race track during the British Grand Prix in an attempt to disrupt that Formula One race.

Roberto Gesta de Melo, head of the Brazilian track federation and a member of the International Association of Athletics Federations council, filed a handwritten appeal on behalf of Lima.

“Someone took him out the race and we are asking for a gold medal for our athlete,” de Melo said. “Solutions like that have been done in the past for other events.”

Nick Laham / Getty Images
A man identified as Cornelius Horan is led away by authorities after attacking Vanderlei de Lima during the men's marathon.
 
But the International Association of Athletics Federations said that while it regretted the incident, “the final results can unfortunately not be changed.”

“I think the Olympic spirit prevailed and I prevailed. I was able to show that determination wins races,” de Lima said after receiving his bronze. “Never mind the result of the appeal,” he said. “I’m very happy to have won this medal.”

De Lima will be presented with a Pierre de Coubertin Medal, named after the founder of the modern Olympics in recognition of his “exceptional demonstration of fair play and Olympic values,” the IOC said.

“It was a very difficult incident because I was very concentrated, knowing I was going to win, and it cut my rhythm,” de Lima said. But he added: “I managed to finish, and the bronze medal in such a difficult marathon is also a great achievement.”

The police sources said Horan arrived in Athens just before dawn Sunday aboard a British Airways flight. They said Horan apparently acted believing that Christian Judgment Day was coming.

Horan would be taken to a prosecutor on Monday, the sources said. It was unclear if he would be charged or remanded for psychiatric evaluation.

Keflezighi ran a personal-best 2:11.29, 34 seconds behind Baldini. De Lima finished in 2:12.11.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 10:36:48 AM by Reality »

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2004, 09:30:14 PM »
Yes and Yes.

MMan and SKorean issue golds.
If you want to let the current goldies keep theirs, thats fine too.

Offline SPURSX3

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2004, 09:45:46 AM »
Quote
Yes and Yes.

MMan and SKorean issue golds.
If you want to let the current goldies keep theirs, thats fine too.
i say let Hamm keep his metal...as it is we OWN south Korea, or atleast we should own them...they may as ell call it "USA East"
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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2004, 09:50:39 AM »
I'll definitely say yes to the Marathoner.  I'll also add that I wish the other spectators had put a serious beatdwon on the fool who ran out there!  What an absolute ass!!!  I was actually watching when it happened I couldn't tell what happened at first.  Every time they replay it the madder I get.  Huge props to the Brazilian for not only finishing, but laughing and smiling as he did so.   That's showing incredible toughness and real class.


I'm a little less inclined to do that for the gymnast, because unlike the very gracious comments comming from the Brazilian Marathoner, the South Koreans and Olympic people are trying to TAKE AWAY the gold from Hamm to make up for THEIR OWN MISTAKES!  Maybe he should get one as well but the "We screwed up so were going to bend our own rules and make you forfeit the gold" routine is bull.  

Offline westkoast

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2004, 10:03:29 AM »
I don't care for the olympics outside of basketball really so when I first heard the story about the S. Korean and the American and the whole return the medal story I was thinking that one of our guys cheated and the S. Korean should have been the real winner.  With the kind of pressure I briefly read about being put on the American from the commitee I was thinking the guy was doping.  Later I find out that the same committee that F'd up scoring is the same that is trying to put the pressure on the American to return the medal.  Almost like its his fault that he was handed the medal and not theirs.  I say he should keep the medal because the S. Korean team should have challenged the scoring right after they saw the score.  Not later on down the line.  The rules state that it needed to be challenged sooner than the korean team did.  The judges screwed up and need to be held accountable by someone.  You are not allowed to bend the rule that you can award dual gold's.  Why should you be allowed to bend the rule that states how long you have to challenge scoring?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 10:05:18 AM by westkoast »
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Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2004, 10:35:09 AM »
When exactly did the SKoreans become aware of the judging error?  How were they supposed to know, are all the judging numbers made available to them?   When did they file a complaint?  
Anyone know?

No answer to these leads me to believe its more incredibly lame coverage/scheduling by MSNBC.

Westkoast you didn't vote.
 

Offline westkoast

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2004, 10:59:31 AM »
Quote
When exactly did the SKoreans become aware of the judging error?  How were they supposed to know, are all the judging numbers made available to them?   When did they file a complaint?  
Anyone know?

No answer to these leads me to believe its more incredibly lame coverage/scheduling by MSNBC.

Westkoast you didn't vote.
Where do I vote?  If its in the thread I vote NO to give the medal back.

The South Korean's had to be aware right when they posted the scores because they deducted points from him for missing something that he did not miss.  I do know they filed the complaint after everything went thru.  Like a day or 2 later (if I remember from the article correctly)
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2004, 11:17:27 AM »
Not to mention, the South Koreans score should have been lower than he was awarded, because the judges missed a 6th release  on the parallel bas (when you're only allowed to do 5 in the exercise).  So if you want to give him points for what the judges missed, you have to take points away from what the judges missed as well.

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2004, 11:33:13 AM »
Clarification on voting options.

You can vote to have the MMan Brasillian get a gold while the current gold also keeps his.

Same with SKorean.  If he gets a gold then US Hamm can still keep his.

I thought the SKorean lost points not because of a bogile deduction but because the difficulty factor was not set to the correct + multiple.

Anywho I find it hard to believe the SKoreans would not file a protest immediately once they learned of the scoring error.  Knowing how close gymnastic scores are I dont think they said...."Well, we think our guy can win even with the error, naw keep the scoring error the same lets just let it ride."

Westkoast you still didnt vote on the MMan.

Offline Ted

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2004, 11:34:32 AM »
I agree with dabods.

The FIG disgusts me. The totally gutless move by the Pres of the FIG to pressure Hamm to give the medal back is the most cowardly, weak thing I've seen in this Olympics.

I lived in Korea for two years, and I can tell you this, many people in that country have a severe inferiority complex when it comes to other countries. Even though we're their strongest ally, we're also one of the most hated countries in Korea. Anyway, they were bound to whine about this.

The other thing that bothers me is the media coverage. Every single article I read says that Yang "would have" won the gold. There is absolutely no way to know that for sure. He might have had a completely different last routine knowing he was in the lead. Other gymnasts might have performed differently being in a different position.

Yang should be glad he got the bronze, because if the judges had gotten everything right, his score should have been a tenth of a point lower than the "incorrect" score he received. His real score might have even dropped him out of the medals. So I think the Koreans should shut their Kimchee holes.

E.M. Swift on cnnsi.com wrote two great articles that explain this issue very well. I recommend them to anyone who doesn't understand this scandal.
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Offline Ted

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2004, 11:36:49 AM »
My votes:

Give the Brazilian the gold.

Tell the Korean to feel lucky that the judges missed his two-tenths deduction error.


Read the Swift articles.
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Offline ziggy

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2004, 11:39:32 AM »
Quote
I'll definitely say yes to the Marathoner.  I'll also add that I wish the other spectators had put a serious beatdwon on the fool who ran out there!  What an absolute ass!!!  I was actually watching when it happened I couldn't tell what happened at first.  Every time they replay it the madder I get.  Huge props to the Brazilian for not only finishing, but laughing and smiling as he did so.   That's showing incredible toughness and real class.


I'm a little less inclined to do that for the gymnast, because unlike the very gracious comments comming from the Brazilian Marathoner, the South Koreans and Olympic people are trying to TAKE AWAY the gold from Hamm to make up for THEIR OWN MISTAKES!  Maybe he should get one as well but the "We screwed up so were going to bend our own rules and make you forfeit the gold" routine is bull.
I am with JN here.  The marathon situation is different because it was caused by someone outside the event, and I would be inclined to give him a gold in addition to the Italian.  I see no reason to penalize the Italian, as there is no evidence that the Italian wouldn't have won.

As far as the Gymnastics, leave it as it is.  First of all this is different from the skating situation in SLC, where there was corruption.  In this case there was an error by the judges.  Since the scoring of gymnastics is based solely upon judging, if the judges screw up that is part of the game.  Yes the start value was wrong, but the judges also did not give him the proper amount of deductions either.  There is a process in place to protest and the Koreans didn't protest in time.  After years of being told that bad calls by officials is part of the game, to now say that you need to fix them after the fact and CHANGE the result is bogus.
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Offline Derek Bodner

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2004, 12:22:41 PM »
Just to clarify, like the others I agree the marathoner should be given a gold.  Ideally, when something outside the event does something like this, you pull out the re-do card.  Obviously, you can't re-run a 26 mile race.  award 2 medals.

Offline Reality

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Poll: Give the dude a Gold Medal?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2004, 12:29:59 PM »
Quote
E.M. Swift on cnnsi.com wrote two great articles that explain this issue very well.
I'm at the site but its telling me to access the em swift articles i have to be a member and give credit card info yada yada.

Can you post a link?
If that doesnt work just post the articles?

Core issue for me is when were the SKors informed of mistake.
However i also see the can it opens as in did the Korean have other mistakes.   Or for that matter as Hamm says go over every contestants tape, would ALL their scores change.

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"I think the responsibility the Democrats have may rest more in resisting any efforts by Republicans in the Congress or by me when I was President to put some standards in and tighten up a little bit on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac." ~Bill Clinton