Author Topic: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.  (Read 4724 times)

jemagee

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »
My theory on where 'American Ingenuity' went has something to do with the sissification of this country where 'healthy competition' is no longer OK - where social advancement is used to kids don't feel bad about failing to perform - where dodgeball is replaced by jump rope in gym class -


Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 10:35:31 AM »
My theory on where 'American Ingenuity' went has something to do with the sissification of this country where 'healthy competition' is no longer OK - where social advancement is used to kids don't feel bad about failing to perform - where dodgeball is replaced by jump rope in gym class -


I agree, there should be no such thing as a 9th place trophy!  (Meet the Parents/Fokers ref BTW).
"History shouldn't be a mystery"
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Offline Lurker

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 12:25:31 PM »
My theory on where 'American Ingenuity' went has something to do with the sissification of this country where 'healthy competition' is no longer OK - where social advancement is used to kids don't feel bad about failing to perform - where dodgeball is replaced by jump rope in gym class -



You mean support an education system that teaches and REWARDS critical thinking regardless of income level?  My how that will devastate little Johnny who clearly is suited to be nothing better than an over paid, out of work, auto worker.

It has very little to do with "sissification"...otherwise gangs would be providing the leaders of America.  It has more to do with stupidification.  Teaching to the lowest denominator.  Rewarding (paying) entertainment stars more than educators.  Building an educational system based on memorization in order to "pass" standardized tests rather than problem solving.  Bush in the last 8 years has only accelerated the demise of American education with his No Child Left Behind policy.  Some people are just plain stupid/lazy and deserve to be left behind...these are the people who should be doing the work that illegals are willing to do.  These are the people that minimum wage laws were designed to help.
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave.  Keep on thinking free.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 02:47:38 PM »
Bottom line it for me zig, when does the housing price bottom out and start upward.

If you can further break it down by US regions, i will definitely marvel more then any Keynaziyun ever has.

Couple of graphs, hopefully I can get them to show up


This is the web address from Haver Analytics
http://www.haver.com/COMMENT/081124b.htm

As Lurker has correctly pointed out a number of times Real Estate is all local.  RE in Texas for instance is in far better shape that So Cal, LV, Aricona, Florida, and an outsize proportion of the losses in RE has come from the markets that were the most out of control.

We still have 10+ months of inventory of homes, mainly because the number of homes sold has been dropping.  The absolute number of available unsold homes has been steadily declining, but not as fast as the number of homes sold, hence the increase in the months of inventory.  Once the market turns we "could" see a run up, because of supply and demand.  Supply has outstripped demand, so prices have fallen.  Supply is way down, but demand is still less.  If demand picks up then it could outstrip supply and prices could rebound.

My business is in directly tied to new home building.  In 2 years we have saw sales fall by about 40%.  Our expectations are that in the first 1/4 of 2009 we should see sales down by 30% from Aug/Sept/Oct.  So the worst is yet to come.  The first 6 months of 2009 will be bad.

The key is the credit markets.  The economy is deleveraging.  That means banks are reducing outstanding loan balances, to increase equity and reduce liabilities.  Our financial system is based upon trust.  A piece of paper with $100 printed on it is worthless unless people are willing to take it in trade for something else.  People won't do that if they don't trust the validity of the paper.  Right now banks are calling loans because they do not trust the borrowers to pay it back.  Once trust is restored then liquidity will increase.








Here is a very interesting article on commodities.  Many people feel oil could rise soon.  I don't pick markets, because you will always be wrong, but I said 3 years ago that the price of oil would be in the $40's before it hit $100.  That would have happened if the Fed hadn't cut rates so aggressively, but be that as it may, oil in the $40-$60 range is very close to the real price.  The only reason it went to $147 is the Fed injected excess liquidity, which allowed for massive leverage for short term bets.  Once that went away the price headed to its real level.

Recognize that OPEC working with Russia and Venezuela is trying cut output to get prices up.  The average price for the 18 months prior to September was $108.  So oil producing states have seen a 60% decline in oil revenue in 2 months.  Now OPEC wants them to cut production by maybe 10%, so that makes your decline approach 70% in revenue.  These countries cannot handle that, they have to increase production to make up for the 60% decline.  Prices above $60 are a long ways off, and it will not be a result of OPEC cuts, or increased Chinese demand.  Any "expert" who tells you that is an idiot.  Prices will only increase when liquidity increases.

Questioning the Commodities Super Cycle

Conventional wisdom is that the plunge in commodities was due in part to the deflating of a speculative bubble, the balance the result of the nasty contraction now in full force. Once things recover, basic materials should enjoy a strong rebound as China and other emerging markets get back on the growth path. Comparisons to the Great Depression are also encouraging, since commodities rallied before stocks did.

But the optimistic case is not as clear cut as it sounds. Oil bulls point to the unusually steep contango, where futures prices are markedly higher than spot (backwardization is the more normal state of affairs). Traders can now reap attractive risk free profit by buying crude, storing it, and selling it forward.

And when was the last time the contango was this steep? In 1998, when the price of crude fell to under $10. Historically, a contango this steep is consistent with a glut. And while oil prices did increase from the 1998 bottom, they had reached just under $12 by year end and $16.50 by year end 1999. That may sound like an impressive recovery, until you consider that oil had been nearly $29 at year end 1984, $23 at the close of 1990, and over $18 at year end 1997 (which was lower than 1996). That is a long-winded way of saying a sharp recovery from the bottom (which some are now saying could be as low as $25) does not appear likely.

An article in today's Financial Times keys off the downbeat oil demand forecasts from the World Bank and the US Energy Department. First, from the FT piece on the two studies, "Global demand for oil to plummet":

    Global oil demand will collapse next year and commodities will not return to the highs they reached this summer in the foreseeable future, two authoritative reports said on Tuesday as they forecast a long and painful worldwide recession....

    The US energy department said global oil demand will fall this year and next, marking the first two consecutive years? decline in 30 years....

    Meanwhile, the World Bank?s Global Economic Prospects report said the commodities boom of the past five years ? which drove up prices 130 per cent ? had ?come to an end?.

    The World Bank?s analysis of the commodities boom contrasts with the prevalent view among natural resources companies ? and most Wall Street analysts ? that the ongoing price drop is a correction within an upward trend....

    Oil would return to about $75 a barrel within the next three years, it said, while food would trade 60 per cent higher than in 2003, but about half below this year?s record.

    ?Over the longer run, the price of extracted commodities should fall,? the bank said, adding that because of slower population and income growth, world demand for raw materials will ease.

    Andrew Burns, the leading author of the report, dismissed the idea ? widely supported among the industry and international bodies such as the International Energy Agency ? that the credit crunch could result in higher prices when the economy recovers as companies cancel supply expansion projects.

    The bank forecast that world trade ? an engine of growth for many developing countries ? would contract for the first time since 1982.


The World Bank report is significant because it tends to err on the optimistic side with growth forecasts.

The longer FT article, "So long, super-cycle," looks at how our latest commodities cycle compares with past ones, and also focuses on the role of emerging markets. We've extracted (no pun intended) some of the juicy bits from this long but worthwhile article:

    The common belief in the industry itself, and among most Wall Street analysts, is that the market is undergoing a correction but that the boom years have not ended....

    But a growing minority disagrees with this rosy view. With its report released on Tuesday, the World Bank has put itself among the most vocal in warning that the commodities boom has come to an end. Some executives in the natural resources industry agree ? in private....

    Although most proponents of this argument see prices remaining well above the lows of the 1990s, they do not forecast a return to the torrid levels of this summer. That is because a more slowly expanding population and weaker rises in income will ease global economic growth ? and commodities demand ? in the next two decades.


Yves here. Demographic changes have not gotten the attention they merit. In addition, China also announced its intent to use the plunge in oil prices to reduce its energy subsidies further next year. China has come to realize that making fuel artificially cheap has made its manufacturers and products energy-inefficient, and it need to move pricing to world levels.

Back to the article:

    They dismiss the notion that the credit crunch will trigger shortages in the future as companies cancel investment projects. Any increase in demand will first slowly have to absorb the current build-up in dormant capacity as companies cut their production....

    For its part, the natural resources industry points out that falling supply in some areas and commodities ? such as mature oilfields in the North Sea or old gold mines in South Africa ? will support prices even if demand is weak. But pessimists say that the rapid fall in demand will leave the system with plenty of spare capacity.

    Both sides have powerful arguments but history says that commodities booms last about a decade ? almost exactly the length of time that oil prices were on the rise.

    Whatever the disagreements, pessimists and optimists see eye to eye on the next 12-24 months: it looks grim for commodities....

    ?The main difference for commodities is that our view for emerging countries? near-term economic growth is now more pessimistic,? says Thomas Helbling, an IMF economist who specialises in commodities issues. Relatively high-growth emerging countries consume more energy and other basic products than developed nations as they build infrastructure and embrace new forms of consumption, from cars and washing machines to meat and refrigerators....

    According to the World Bank, Chinese economic growth will slow to 7.5 per cent in 2009, the lowest rate since 1990. But some bankers and mining executives are even more pessimistic, saying that activity in some sectors has already almost stopped...

    But for investors, executives and bankers alike, the commodities boom and bust cycles teach that extrapolating today?s events into the future may prove the wrong bet. Ten years ago this week, when oil prices bottomed at $9.64 a barrel, the common wisdom was that commodities prices were heading down. Today?s forecasts could prove equally fallible.

    PEAK PERIODS OF THE PAST: IN STRENGTH, LENGTH AND SCOPE, IT HAS BEEN THE BOOM OF A CENTURY



The last five years? commodities price surge has been the most marked of the past century in its magnitude, duration and breadth ? with the cost of energy, metals and food all swept upward...

The length of the 2003-08 boom has also surprised many. The jumps of the 1950s and 1970s were shorter, although the first world war brought a similarly long period of strength...

Yet the sheer size of the rises also stands out. ?The magnitude of commodity price increases during the current boom is without precedent,? says the World Bank in its latest report.

It notes that prices in real terms ? inflation adjusted ? have increased by 109 per cent in US dollars since 2003 and 130 per cent since the cyclical low of 1999.

By contrast, increases in earlier booms never exceeded 60 per cent, according to the bank?s estimates.

From trough to peak in the oil market, prices rose ? in nominal terms ? by 1,415 per cent between December 1998 and last July.
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Offline ziggy

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 05:32:02 PM »
Interesting article from Roubini's Econo-blog.  It is a little long, as he says he tends to ramble, but interesting in anycase.

Debt Destruction through Principal Reduction

Rich Hartmann - Miss America | Dec 12, 2008

From time to time, I?ve been told that I ramble on too much, or that I?m a little too wordy, longwinded, tedious, etc?  In an effort to be a bit more concise, I?ll get to my point!  (HA?  yeah right!   Buckle up!)

You can?t save the economy, without saving its most important part!  The GENERAL PUBLIC (the consumer, producer, service provider).  In a nutshell, the problems we face are:  Too much Debt, Too little credit, and no transparency between the two.  (In order to further break that down, we have to look at the way this affects the following 2 groups:  Wall St and Main St.  ...and how the problem is addressed by The Powers That Be and the dollar that was.  ?but we?ll get to that later.)

Plain and simple, the average person is in over their heads.  ?and we have to throw out our grandparent?s book on what needs to be done.  We are in unique times.  Deflationary trends will rear their heads in the world of excess, but inflationary trends will emerge in the world of necessities.  With the cost of living, surviving, and thriving becoming so expensive, those without ?SHOULD? drive the cost of everything down.  ?but the levels of debt owed are far too vast to be absorbed by the overburdened system.  Since the consumer, wall st, and the government are already so overspent, they no longer have the buffer of existing credit to meet our current obligations.

Faced with this catastrophe, the options that have to immediately be addressed are to add credit and destroy debt.  The Powers That Be (TPTB ? The Government, Fed, Treasury, SEC, FASB, etc?) have gone to great lengths to save the Monoliners, Banks, Credit, Financial Firms, Insurers, Auto, etc? in grand socialist fashion.  In short, where they had too much debt, TPTB eased the burden of debt obligations by taking debt off the hands of Corporate America.  Where they had too little credit, TPTB provided liquidity in every conceivable way and slashed interbank rates to keep markets from freezing.  ?and where transparency issues existed, TPTB absorbed the toxic mess, and placed it in the vortex of Unknown Financial Obligations (UFO?s), where they will disappear from existence, but someday, magically reappear as a long term gain. (?while looking and smelling like freshly printed dollars which no one will question 10/20/30 years from now.)

By saving Wall St, we have temporarily saved the arms and legs of our economy?  Now it is time to save the body.  Main St!

Principal Reduction:  (aimed at primary residence)

To immediately address the needs of Main St, debt must be destroyed.  Obviously, the overspent consumer can no longer spend without availability of, or access to, credit and current debt obligations.  The subsequent obligatory pullback by the consumer will directly feed the deflationary spiral, which then can only be absorbed through inflationary printing by TPTP.  (more quantitative easing via ) 0% rate, and T-buy backs)

The most direct way to avoid this death spiral and put money back in the pockets of the consumer, while at the same time, reducing debt obligations, is through principal reductions of debt.  Time is of the essence as every day that this is not done exacerbates the speed and depth at which our economy will fall.  There is a multiplier affect, which requires immediate action to put the necessary floor down.  Currently, the ?wait and see? reactionary approach by TPTB, have us trying to save those already in trouble, rather then taking the proactive approach of saving those who will inevitably be in trouble.  (I?m not saying those who are in trouble are not a top concern, but rather they need to be tended to in a manor that addresses the future problems first.  Like on an burning airplane, you put the oxygen mask on yourself first?.  Then you can help other.  Otherwise, you?re just compounding the problem.)

Perhaps a better analogy is, when addressing the Tsunami of debt that our country is in, you don't put up a wall to block the tidal wave that already came in!  You put up a wall to block all the future waves that will be coming!!!  For the wave that already came in, you sift through the wreckage and repair what you can.  In an effort to help the public, TPTB have spent a great deal of time and money working on providing aid for those already in foreclosure.  Unfortunately, they have failed to build the wall that is needed to stop the next tidal waves of foreclosures and bankruptcies!  The compounding of losses as the concept of waiting for someone to go into  foreclosure/bankruptcy is far too late in the process to help.

How Principal Reduction Works?

If you bailout every bankrupt person, then responsible people will choose not to pay. You can NOT create fail/reward system. A balanced approach is needed.  With that said, to stem further risk of escalating bankruptcy/foreclosures a mathematically modeled approach needs to be taken where the percentage of money owed on primary residences can be reduced by a factor greater then the next projected overall net loss within the spectrum of the consumer?s reduction of spending + obligations.

In a prior article, (http://www.rgemonitor.com/globalmacro-monitor/254144/friends_romans_countrymen_lend_me_your_ears) I used hypothetical 10% and 20% reductions to draw how this works.  What I stated was that many of the underlying secondary market securities have already been written down this much or more already.  (many by up to 80%)  By reducing the principal value of these assets even further, it would seem to that this would cause these securities to take additional hits.  ?but this is not the case.  A ?less is more? approach will actually raise the amortized value of the securities, as their likelihood of being repaid increases.

At the same time, when Main St feels the ?rolling stimulus? of reduced the monthly bills, the immediate capital/credit inflow will flow to the following places:

1. Pay off debt

2. Saving

3. Spending

4. Under the mattress.

For the first 3 scenarios, you have cash flowing back into the system, thus feeding the ?less is more? concept.  ?Debt repayment? will help aid putting a floor under default or the confidence/fear of default by investors. ?Savings? will immediately recapitalize the banks, thus helping start an upward cycle.  And ?Spending? will start to resume when fear resides and credit exists.  Unfortunately, ?under the mattress? will have to be addressed. (this can be done through increased bank rates and raising of FDIC caps or restoration of confidence in the fact that the first 3 scenarios are once again working.)

For the portion of written down principal, TPTB would create ?open receivables? in equal amounts.  (TPTB could even securitize these severely distressed assets, much like the Tobacco Bond Debt.  I wouldn?t be in favor of more securitization?  but at least the perverse incentive would be in aiding the economy to recover to the point where even the open receivables were potentially paid off.  Investing here would be a true investment in the future/confidence of the net worth of the economy.  That?s far better then requiring people to smoke, just so debt can be repaid!!!)

VOLUNTARY!!!   Not MANDATORY!

The concept of this stimulus plan is voluntary but equal.  For those who do not want to participate (for fear of reducing the ?principal value? of their home further) they do not have to participate.  Alternative stimulus should be provided for their responsible behaviors of spending within their means.  (Unfortunately, they will eventually come to the realization that their asset isn?t worth what they paid for it or what they felt it should be worth, as the market currently dictates.  Their prudence through ?potential? house price recovery could pay off, if the market was to return.  (which is most likely through a ?less is more? theory/reality))  For example, those whom have paid off their MTG debt, or choose not to write down their principal:  a tax break can be created to reward them annually (similar to a STAR reduction).

For all those that choose to reduce principal, an open receivable is kept on the books for the length of ownership of the home. If the housing market was to recover and you were to see a windfall, the open receivable would have to be paid prior to seeing a profit.

For example, You have a $200,000 mortgage. TPTB writes down 10%.

* TPTB creates an open receivable for $20,000.  (which TPTB could then securitize as skin in the game for aiding a recovery focused on the broad US economy)

* The homeowner now has a $1,140 monthly payment as opposed to a $1,266 payment, saving them $126 per month which gets infused back into the financial system (This is your ?rolling stimulus plan?.   For a typical $417,000 conforming loan, the savings would be $264 per month.)

To look further down the road, if the housing market were to recover, this is what would happen. You sell your $200,000 home (which you were only paying on $180,000) for $230,000. Instead of walking away with a $50,000 profit (230k ? 180k = 50k) you would have to pay off your open receivable first. So you?d walk away with $30k (or maybe less if interest is added???)

In the event, that the market continued to stay depressed, the likelihood of you selling your house at a loss (or flat) versus just filing for bankruptcy/foreclosure would be significantly diminished by the parallel difference between the equity owed versus the current market price.  Let?s say, you were somewhat responsible, and put 15% down on the purchase of your home.  ($200,000 price, $30,000 equity, $170,000 debt.)  In addition, let?s say the market dropped by 40%.  Your house would be valued at $120,000.  In order to keep the homeowner?s skin in the game, rather then walk away from the negative equity, TPTB will need to lessen the 30% difference of $170,000 owed versus the $120,000 value.  If say a 15% Principal Reduction was set, owing $145,000 on a house that you paid $200,000 for, would leave less of a risk of homeowners walking away, and promote potential sales.  At the same time, that homeowner would see their monthly debt burden reduced by nearly $150.00 a month.  That?s $150, this month, next month, the month after that, and so on.  That?s your ?rolling stimulus?.  When 150,000,000 homeowners see this reduction of debt, it pans out to over $250,000,000,000.00 billion in new liquidity, and destroyed debt per year.  (which like I said earlier, will be printed regardless, as a necessity for replacing the fictional monopoly money (of finance) that has already left the system.  (The ?monopoly money? will be further explained in the future post on ?The Financial Industry?s overgrowth?.  ? still in pre-production)

Which ever way the market goes, the issue of ?transparency? where homeowners are holding ?illiquid assets? (their house) is addressed as their debt is less, their credit is more, and the glut of unsold houses reverses course due to the momentum in price discovery of a bottom.  (this bottom is unattainable right now as people cannot come to grips with the reality of where the current market prices are at versus their equity owned)

***Interest Rate Reductions for Homeowners***

TPTB have already floated around the concept of mass interest rate reductions for homeowners.  In theory, and mathematically, this concept looks the same as Principal Reduction, but is flawed.  It lacks Incentive!  It does NOT put equity in the homeowners hands in relation to their debts.  In sum, it only addresses the credit side of the problem.

Quantitative Easing:    By taking the drastic measures they have, TPTB have played a high risk game of chicken with the value of the Dollar.  When our financial system started to systemically implode, the dollar and all financial companies based in dollars fell with it.  The markets dropped as the fear struck the players and well informed financial communities.  Eventually, when that fear became reality, and losses started to be felt around the world, the losses around the world balanced out.  The subsequent flight to safety saved the US Government, and its entire economy.

The current confidence boost in the power of the dollar has given our current financial decision makers a false sense of confidence.  Now that economics has taken over the mainstream media and further educated the masses on large parts of the existing problems, the general public has grown tense.  Already gripped with fear, and having seen the value of their general investments cut in half, the public is now too well informed to a blatant devaluing of the dollar.  If the government is serious enough to take the next steps in "Quantitative Easing", I believe they run a serious risk of sliding down a slippery slope of trust and good faith in the value of the currency in relation to easing our country's financial burden by inflating our way out of the debt.

The precedent of printing credit without parallel debt destruction becomes cyclical, and hyperinflationary.  (Since all solvency issues with the government will be averted through printing)  The "ground level fear" of "what has value" that exists on the street will no longer just pit the USD versus import/export products like oil, foreign currency, cheap labor.  The reality is:  "what has value" will be revised from financial engineering to putting food on your plate.  This is reality.  Right now, in the current environment, this potential risk is significantly upped if Quantitative easing takes place.  We saw oil rise to $147, (when it is currently at $45), which begs the question:  Will food be next?  Why not?  Why is oil capable of inflating by over 200% of its current value, while rice is not? Especially, when hoarding is much easier of food products by the general public.

Playing with the confidence in the value of the dollar is NOT a healthy risk right now!!!  Quantitative easing could work if the core (the body and head) of our economy was stable.  Currently, the backstop of our economy only owns debt and illiquid assets.  As the net redemptions, expenses, losses, etc? continue to grow, the more bad news and debt reality hits.  This will cause more obligations, larger bailouts and greater outflows.  (Take a moment to work through the logic.) This is a doomed process through liquidity injections alone as the only reasonable solutions would require so much liquidity that hyperinflation would be a guarantee. The time is now.  Debt Destruction.  It?s time for the public to call upon TPTB and demand it for our economic salvation.  Without this, and fast, I fear what?s around the corner.  The second the general public is saved, I will be prepared to start giving real investment advice.  Until then, our economy is walking blindfolded through a nuclear minefield!
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2008, 05:43:47 PM »

All that anyone can say is, the bottom in the housing market hasn't occurred yet, but that with so much economic uncertainty a house is becoming more of a liability and less of an asset. With a house you sort of loose flexibility in being able to go where the money is, and you always have property taxes and energy costs as well as maintenance and improvements. Still everyone needs a place to live. Best thing to do if you want a house is to imagine your dream home and see if it comes down in price to a level you can afford.

Rick...you start off so good in your answer then go off the deep end.

A house is a great asset.  Utility costs will be incurred whether you live in a house or an apartment.  The costs of taxes and maintenance are built into rent.  A fixed mortgage gives you a fixed housing cost whereas rents can and ARE raised on a regular basis.  Also with home ownership the fixed cost of a mortgage eventually disappears in which the opportunity cost of a house skyrockets.  If you are making $1,500 a month payment (w/o escrow) and you pay off your mortgage you have in essence been given a $1,500 a month annuity.  Figure that benefit over 20-30 (or more) years.

Also mortgage payments is the best forced savings program in the world.  No where else is a person forced to put money every month into an asset that has low liquidity.  Over 30 years a house WILL raise in value.  I have a relative in Las Vegas whose house went up in value almost 150% in the past 4 years.  It has now dropped almost 60% but they are still ahead from when they bought it.  But everyone focuses on teh 60%drop not the runup before hand.  And you buy a house using high leverage even with 10-15% down.  The the government subsidizes your payments with tax incentives (interest & tax deductions).  Add to this the fact that you use inflation adjusted dollars over 30 years to repay and it becomes a no brainer.  You don't wait to find your "dream house" at a price you can afford but you are better finding a starter home that you can afford and start working your way up to your dream house. 

Once you buy a home you are stuck with it, and have to pay a mortgage on it.  If the economy falters or the specific neighborhood your in fails, you may find that you will NEVER get the money you put into the house back.  You are held hostage by the city in which you live and their taxes. A renter can get up and leave, you have to stay, or rent out your home, and depending on how they write the law, you will still have to pay the taxes, simply hope that you can get someone else to pay you enough in rent to cover your costs.

If you are sure you want to live in the same place for several years, buying can be better than renting, but whether you want to recognize it or not, owning a home is a severe liability.  The home has to be insured, and what happens when the home gets destroyed by an earthquake in Cali, or a hurricane in FL. or NO. Chances are you can't get full coverage on your home without it costing you a fortune. And there is a better chance the insurance company will default too! Maintenance is constantly required and if you live in a new home, it's built to minimal standards which means in 10 years it's going to start to fall apart.  A lot of homeowners are paying mortgages on homes at values that they can't hope to get on the open market at this time.

There are so many foreclosed homes sitting vacant in FL, that it will take years to find a bottom to the housing market there.  Anyone who needs to sell their house now is facing a very tough housing market with few buyers and a huge overhang of supply.  Until the job situation improves, housing is not going back into a bull market, anywhere in the US.  Show me a survey that shows home prices are rising anywhere right now in the US if you can!

Offline WayOutWest

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2008, 05:47:44 PM »

All that anyone can say is, the bottom in the housing market hasn't occurred yet, but that with so much economic uncertainty a house is becoming more of a liability and less of an asset. With a house you sort of loose flexibility in being able to go where the money is, and you always have property taxes and energy costs as well as maintenance and improvements. Still everyone needs a place to live. Best thing to do if you want a house is to imagine your dream home and see if it comes down in price to a level you can afford.

Rick...you start off so good in your answer then go off the deep end.

A house is a great asset.  Utility costs will be incurred whether you live in a house or an apartment.  The costs of taxes and maintenance are built into rent.  A fixed mortgage gives you a fixed housing cost whereas rents can and ARE raised on a regular basis.  Also with home ownership the fixed cost of a mortgage eventually disappears in which the opportunity cost of a house skyrockets.  If you are making $1,500 a month payment (w/o escrow) and you pay off your mortgage you have in essence been given a $1,500 a month annuity.  Figure that benefit over 20-30 (or more) years.

Also mortgage payments is the best forced savings program in the world.  No where else is a person forced to put money every month into an asset that has low liquidity.  Over 30 years a house WILL raise in value.  I have a relative in Las Vegas whose house went up in value almost 150% in the past 4 years.  It has now dropped almost 60% but they are still ahead from when they bought it.  But everyone focuses on teh 60%drop not the runup before hand.  And you buy a house using high leverage even with 10-15% down.  The the government subsidizes your payments with tax incentives (interest & tax deductions).  Add to this the fact that you use inflation adjusted dollars over 30 years to repay and it becomes a no brainer.  You don't wait to find your "dream house" at a price you can afford but you are better finding a starter home that you can afford and start working your way up to your dream house. 

Once you buy a home you are stuck with it, and have to pay a mortgage on it.  If the economy falters or the specific neighborhood your in fails, you may find that you will NEVER get the money you put into the house back.  You are held hostage by the city in which you live and their taxes. A renter can get up and leave, you have to stay, or rent out your home, and depending on how they write the law, you will still have to pay the taxes, simply hope that you can get someone else to pay you enough in rent to cover your costs.

If you are sure you want to live in the same place for several years, buying can be better than renting, but whether you want to recognize it or not, owning a home is a severe liability.  The home has to be insured, and what happens when the home gets destroyed by an earthquake in Cali, or a hurricane in FL. or NO. Chances are you can't get full coverage on your home without it costing you a fortune. And there is a better chance the insurance company will default too! Maintenance is constantly required and if you live in a new home, it's built to minimal standards which means in 10 years it's going to start to fall apart.  A lot of homeowners are paying mortgages on homes at values that they can't hope to get on the open market at this time.

There are so many foreclosed homes sitting vacant in FL, that it will take years to find a bottom to the housing market there.  Anyone who needs to sell their house now is facing a very tough housing market with few buyers and a huge overhang of supply.  Until the job situation improves, housing is not going back into a bull market, anywhere in the US.  Show me a survey that shows home prices are rising anywhere right now in the US if you can!

FYI,

About 90+% of American millionares made their money in real estate.  A home is the closest thing to a guaranteed investment you can make.  Renting is throwing your money away.  You can walk away from a home too, sometimes with a profit, sometimes even and sometimes at a loss which people could choose to not repay at the cost of their credit, either way you have far more choices and it's CLEARLY a smarter investment than renting.
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jemagee

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 05:58:27 PM »
Take it from me - RENTING SUCKS

Offline rickortreat

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 06:15:51 PM »

All that anyone can say is, the bottom in the housing market hasn't occurred yet, but that with so much economic uncertainty a house is becoming more of a liability and less of an asset. With a house you sort of loose flexibility in being able to go where the money is, and you always have property taxes and energy costs as well as maintenance and improvements. Still everyone needs a place to live. Best thing to do if you want a house is to imagine your dream home and see if it comes down in price to a level you can afford.

Rick...you start off so good in your answer then go off the deep end.

A house is a great asset.  Utility costs will be incurred whether you live in a house or an apartment.  The costs of taxes and maintenance are built into rent.  A fixed mortgage gives you a fixed housing cost whereas rents can and ARE raised on a regular basis.  Also with home ownership the fixed cost of a mortgage eventually disappears in which the opportunity cost of a house skyrockets.  If you are making $1,500 a month payment (w/o escrow) and you pay off your mortgage you have in essence been given a $1,500 a month annuity.  Figure that benefit over 20-30 (or more) years.

Also mortgage payments is the best forced savings program in the world.  No where else is a person forced to put money every month into an asset that has low liquidity.  Over 30 years a house WILL raise in value.  I have a relative in Las Vegas whose house went up in value almost 150% in the past 4 years.  It has now dropped almost 60% but they are still ahead from when they bought it.  But everyone focuses on teh 60%drop not the runup before hand.  And you buy a house using high leverage even with 10-15% down.  The the government subsidizes your payments with tax incentives (interest & tax deductions).  Add to this the fact that you use inflation adjusted dollars over 30 years to repay and it becomes a no brainer.  You don't wait to find your "dream house" at a price you can afford but you are better finding a starter home that you can afford and start working your way up to your dream house. 

Once you buy a home you are stuck with it, and have to pay a mortgage on it.  If the economy falters or the specific neighborhood your in fails, you may find that you will NEVER get the money you put into the house back.  You are held hostage by the city in which you live and their taxes. A renter can get up and leave, you have to stay, or rent out your home, and depending on how they write the law, you will still have to pay the taxes, simply hope that you can get someone else to pay you enough in rent to cover your costs.

If you are sure you want to live in the same place for several years, buying can be better than renting, but whether you want to recognize it or not, owning a home is a severe liability.  The home has to be insured, and what happens when the home gets destroyed by an earthquake in Cali, or a hurricane in FL. or NO. Chances are you can't get full coverage on your home without it costing you a fortune. And there is a better chance the insurance company will default too! Maintenance is constantly required and if you live in a new home, it's built to minimal standards which means in 10 years it's going to start to fall apart.  A lot of homeowners are paying mortgages on homes at values that they can't hope to get on the open market at this time.

There are so many foreclosed homes sitting vacant in FL, that it will take years to find a bottom to the housing market there.  Anyone who needs to sell their house now is facing a very tough housing market with few buyers and a huge overhang of supply.  Until the job situation improves, housing is not going back into a bull market, anywhere in the US.  Show me a survey that shows home prices are rising anywhere right now in the US if you can!

FYI,

About 90+% of American millionares made their money in real estate.  A home is the closest thing to a guaranteed investment you can make.  Renting is throwing your money away.  You can walk away from a home too, sometimes with a profit, sometimes even and sometimes at a loss which people could choose to not repay at the cost of their credit, either way you have far more choices and it's CLEARLY a smarter investment than renting.

They made their money by participating in a home-grown bubble that has now popped, and unless they moved their money out of real estate they're going belly-up!  The powers that be made it very easy to speculate in real estate, contributing greatly to the excess build up in housing stock.  Housing cost more people to loose money in the 30's than anything, since their life savings was tied up in their equity. Housing didn't recover until after WW2.

I can't say for certain that things will play out the same way, but the similarities in the markets are staggering.  Rent is not an investment, it's an expense or a cost, but it has much less risk to it, and in times like this very advantageous.  Let other people face the declining value of their house and sweat hoping to get out of it whole... The only way to make money in real-estate now is to buy apartments and rent them- if the cash flow exceeds your costs you are golden.  If you live in an area where the economy is strong enough, rental properties are a great investment.  Single family homes have a negative outlook for at least the short-term. In sich circumstances, renting is SMART!

jemagee

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Re: OT- Still more signs of severe stress in the housing market.
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 06:19:52 PM »
You know what - renting sucks - at all times - i hate it - i want a fracking house - i want a yard for my dog and I WANT A KITCHEN BIGGER THAN A HALLWAY

God damn santa barbara real estate and my loatheness to a commute longer than 20 minutes