Phil Jackson or Riles coach of Spurs 2000-2006

[Reality]

What happens?
I know it's a what-if and i know it's been part of a theme I've been having.
Posters such as W.O.W. have touted Riley as one of the best ever.
Phil J we can argue till the cows come home but i think we are unanimous in thinking last year and this he has been what Colonel Sanders is to chicken.  Jomal thinks last years Phil was his best coaching ever.  Lurker it will not kill you to imagine Phil as Spurs coach (I did) or Pat Riles.  Skandery and Joe i know will have some takes.  Westkoast feel free to join in.  Pull Ted away from his self employment 110 hour work week to comment.  Someone please sedate Randy and make him feel free to join.  LFD do you want to come back for this one?  To me this year is his best so far and if he can continue to convince Kobe to go team ball mixed in with his occasional 30 pt coma quarters, Phil will make noise in the playoffs.
jn take a winter break an be in San Antone for those years with those two.
rt 
Anyone i left out my apologies.

Oh yeah dabods.  But he hardly talks to us anymore.

What do Riles or Phillip do with the Spurs from 2000 til now?
Phil yes assume he has Tex.
Assume same personell, or add realistic roster moves only.
If you want to make it interesting, assume Pop is coach of Lakers same years.

[Joe Vancil]

First of all, let's consider Riley as the Spurs coach.

Riley takes over in 2000, and sees that he has Duncan and Robinson - two players which fit in to what Pat Riley wants to do with a team - establish a top level threat in the post, and a top-level threat on the perimeter.  Beyond that, it's defense, defense, defense.  And the 2000 Spurs have the defense.  Avery Johnson is ousted as the starting point guard, favoring Antonio Daniels first, and then, toward the end of the year, Terry Porter.  Unfortunately, due to Duncan's injury, and the wear-and-tear on Robinson and Elie from Riley's practices, the Spurs are ousted in the playoffs.

In 2001, acquisition of Derek Anderson makes him Riley's pet project.  Derek Anderson ends up with a career year, and Duncan returns healthy.  Unfortunatley, Robinson is done.  He misses 15-to-20 games.  Riley's point guard crew is in terrible shape - Daniels has taken over as the starter again, but Riley's not really happy with him.  Porter is on his las legs, as is Avery Johnson.  Perhaps San An is good for a finals appearance, but, in the end, the Sixers run them out of the building.

In 2002, the Spurs are hurting.  David Robinson and Terry Porter retired after last season.  The team didn't trade Derek Anderson for Steve Smith.  Malik Rose takes over as the starting power forward, Duncan moves to center.  Rookie point guard Tony Parker infuriates Riley, who is still playing Antonio Daniels as the starter at point.  Newcomers Steven Jackson and Bruce Bowen battle for the small forward spot, with Bowen winning the battle.  As the season goes on, Anderson falls further and futher out of favor, eventually being replaced by Stephen Jackson.  The Spurs become very reminiscent of Riley's Knicks - brutal and bruising.  Unfortunately, their talent is depleting.  By post-season, Duncan has been absolutely brutalized.

In 2003, Riley is interested in rookie guards Manu Ginobilli and Devin Brown, but is still starting the Jackson/Bowen combo.  In an experiment, Riley plays Anderson at the point.  It fails.  He plays Parker at the point.  He's not happy.  Speedy Claxton finally settles into the point guard role.  However, a lack of depth up front prevents the Spurs from making significant noise in the playoffs.

In the 2003 off-season, after seeing the team fall short time and time again, with a lack of development of any young players, Anderson rotting away on the bench, and with Duncan being exhausted, Pat Riley is fired.

-----
Popovich with the Lakers.

2000 - Shaquille O'Neal comes up with the MVP year that everyone has expected him to have for eons.  O'Neal responds extremely well to Popovich's military-style.  Kobe Bryant, however, doesn't.  With a line-up of Derek (not Ron) Harper at the point, Kobe at the 2, Rick Fox at the 3, A.C. Green at the 4, and O'neal, the Lakers power through the playoffs and defeat the Pacers soundly.

2001 - Shaquille O'Neal continues to terrorize the league, as the one and only captain of the team.  Kobe Bryant is rebelling openly against Popovich, who is pressuring Laker management to trade him.  The off-season swap for Horace Grant didn't happen, and the new line-up of O'Neal, Travis Knight, Fox, Bryant, and Derek Harper/Derek Fisher again powers through the league.  Of big interest to Popovich is Tyronn Lue, who figures to play a more prominent role next season.

2002 - The Shaquille O'Neal/Kobe Bryant feud, which we've seen coming for years, erupts - and like NOTHING we've seen in real life.  Popovich responds strongly against Bryant, resulting in a motivated O'Neal, and disgruntled Bryant, and a Laker failure in the playoffs.  In the off-season, Jerry West - who has been with the team the entire time - works diligently to trade Bryant, believing that he's got something special coming up in Devean George.  West's hope is to get a power forward/2-guard combo in exchange for Bryant.  However, West strikes the gold mine - he acquires Kevin Garnett for Kobe Bryant, Travis Knight, Tyronn Lue, and a draft pick.

2003 - Despite having a great deal of talent, the Lakers struggle because of Garnett's failure to respond to Popvich, and the team's aged back-court, which now starts Glen Rice at the 2-guard.  Devean George looks good, though.

2004 - After acquiring Gary Payton as a free agent, the Lakers return to dominance, and win the championship, with a line-up of O'Neal, Garnett, George, Rice, and Payton.  Garnett still isn't happy about Popovich.  And Shaq is showing signs of age.

That's about as far as I can realistically go.  I'm having trouble figuring out who Jerry West is going to acquire for the backcourt.
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Phil and the Spurs:

2000 - Phil finds a team he can use - mostly.  Avery Johnson must go.  Terry Porter emerges as the starter, with Steve Kerr and Antonio Daniels seeing minutes.  Jaren Jackson continues his torrid streak from the previous playoffs, and replaces Shawn Elliott in the starting line-up.  The athletic system Phil puts in place, however, means that Robinson is coming back from injury right as Duncan goes down in the playoffs.  A first-round casualty.

2001 - New acquisitions Derek Anderson and Danny Ferry fit the triangle perfectly.  Terry Porter is still starting at point.  Avery Johnson is gone.  The starting line-up is Porter, Anderson, Jaren Jackson, Ferry, and Duncan, with Robinson coming off the bench.  The Spurs lose in a close series to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals.  Duncan terrorizes the league, and narrowly loses to Shaquille O'Neal in the MVP voting.

2002 - The Derek Anderson/Steve Smith trade doesn't happen.  Injury problems continue to plague Robinson.  Ferry is breaking down.  New acquisition Stephen Jackson looks like a fit to the triangle, but takes to it very slowly.  Bruce Bowen swipes the small forward job, with Anderson now playing point, and Jaren Jackson at the 2.  Tony Parker wasn't drafted.  Due to the weakness at the power forward spot - Malik Rose isn't cutting it for Jackson and Ferry is breaking down, the Spurs are eliminated in the playoffs by the eventual champs - the Sacramento Kings.  Duncan has another great year, but O'Neal wins his third straight MVP.

2003 - Robinson retired in the off-season.  Jaren Jackson goes down with injury.  Interesting rookie Manu Ginobili gets a few looks, but Phil decides he won't work out at the point.  Devin Brown sees significant minutes in place of Jackson.  Anderson and Bowen have good years, as does Duncan, but the power forward spot is now a gaping hole.  San An is eliminated by Dallas - the eventual champs - in the playoffs.

That's about as far as I can go.  I don't know what the power forward solution is, and I'm stretching how far I'm willing to go with Derek Anderson.

[WayOutWest]

While I won't go into as many details as Joe, Phil is clearly the better fit for the Spurs.  One of Riley's biggest assests is getting guys to play beyond their abilities, with a passion no seen since the 80's Lakers, Celitcs and Hawks.  The workman blue collar attitude of the Spurs personel doesn't need Riley's fire and brimstone approach to coaching, even though he's settled down a bit.

Phil and the Tex-Triangle are the perfect solution for the Spurs run of 4 strait titles.  Only the Sixers manage to make the finals interesting with their quirky Brown coached attacked.  The Spurs have very similar personel, or skills, needed for a triangle with a dominant inside presence.  The biggest plus for PJ and Spurs is there would be no drama and not TD or DRob ballooning up to 360lbs over the offseason after winning two strait titles. 

The world is a better place because PJ didn't end up in some hicksville town like SA or Sactown.

[westkoast]

Devean George gets good tho Joe? LOL.  I was following you up until that point.  Well sorta...

Phil Jackson could play for any team and get the respect needed from the players in order for them to buy into his system.  IMO he would do very well with the Spurs lineup that Pop had if you did nothing more then swap coaches across.  He also is probably one of the only coaches who could have slowed and still got the team to power through the Kobe and Shaq beef as it was brewing long before they won a championship.  (The other coach of course being Pat Riley who difused situations between a young Magic and a Kareem).

Ill get to Pop tomorrow....

[Joe Vancil]

Absolutely, Devean George gets good under Popovich as coach.  He's a good defender, which means Popovich can use him, he's going to get significant minutes, a good number of touches, and "come of age" quickly.

Plus, because, in that world, Phil Jackson was never with the Lakers.  Since Phil was never there, Jerry West is still the General Manager, and Jerry West was one of Devean George's biggest supporters.  Given that Popovich will follow orders as well as give them, West's influence will get George the development time he needs/needed.  A bit of a push, and Devean George develops.  Under Jackson, Devean George has to find the drive inside himself, and as a result, he doesn't develop into anything near as much as he could have been.

[westkoast]

Absolutely, Devean George gets good under Popovich as coach.  He's a good defender, which means Popovich can use him, he's going to get significant minutes, a good number of touches, and "come of age" quickly.

Plus, because, in that world, Phil Jackson was never with the Lakers.  Since Phil was never there, Jerry West is still the General Manager, and Jerry West was one of Devean George's biggest supporters.  Given that Popovich will follow orders as well as give them, West's influence will get George the development time he needs/needed.  A bit of a push, and Devean George develops.  Under Jackson, Devean George has to find the drive inside himself, and as a result, he doesn't develop into anything near as much as he could have been.

I guess if you want to play make believe and give George talent he really didn't have...

When was George a good defender?  I'd say at times he was solid but never would I toss him into the good category.   He always has been a very DUMB defender as far as decision making goes.  Lets not take into mind late game break downs of players he had been guarding.  He had length and was quick but made alot of silly mistakes over the course of the game and even the season.  Devin Brown is someone who I say has a game like D. George.  I would expect George to play a similar role he did when he was on the Spurs under Pop.  In fact I'll go as far to say Devin Brown is a BETTER defender then George ever was.

That is just my take after watching him play night in and night out.  I wouldn't say he is a horrible defender or player by any means.  Just not what I would consider 'good'

[Joe Vancil]

I would agree that George made a lot of mistakes, but they weren't what I would call "dumb" mistakes as much as what I'd call "YOUNG" mistakes.  Kind of like Ronnie Brewer deciding to leave Kobe Bryant on the baseline to double-team the ball coming low-to-high from the blind side against the Lakers the other night.  A young player thinks it's an easy steal.  An experienced defender recognizes it as giving up an easy dunk.

For all of Jackson's strengths, developing young players is *NOT* one of them.  Young players under Jackson generally turn one-dimensional.  George would have developed far more under a different coach.

[westkoast]

I would agree that George made a lot of mistakes, but they weren't what I would call "dumb" mistakes as much as what I'd call "YOUNG" mistakes.  Kind of like Ronnie Brewer deciding to leave Kobe Bryant on the baseline to double-team the ball coming low-to-high from the blind side against the Lakers the other night.  A young player thinks it's an easy steal.  An experienced defender recognizes it as giving up an easy dunk.

For all of Jackson's strengths, developing young players is *NOT* one of them.  Young players under Jackson generally turn one-dimensional.  George would have developed far more under a different coach.

I disagree, I would say that they fill a role.  Not very big roles as Phil likes vets but they fill a role.  I don't know if that means they become one dimensional.   Our views on Devean George are much different.  No matter who he was under I don't think he would have turned into a much better player because of his basketball smarts.  As for young players under Phil, while he is not the greatest at developing young talent he has done a good job IMO.   Players like Luke Walton have benefitted from being under Phil.  Granted Luke has always been a smart b-ball player but I believe his game has developed quite a bit under Phil and Tex' system.  I would also toss BJ Armstrong onto that list.   A Young Kobe Bryant benefitted from Phil Jackson as did Michael Jordan.   Yes I know both players were self motivated and were going to be great players regardless but I think he taught them to be smarter basketball players.

 Would one say that Matt Harpring is a one dimensional player because he fills that hustle role for Jerry Sloan? Probably not.  Would he be better under Larry Brown or Gregg Popavich?  Probably not.