Nash MVP again

[Reality]

so we don't have to have an endless discussion of what is an MVP, for the sake of this thread can we say its "if said player was taken off team, how much they would drop/with said player on team how much better they are.  Up till this point in 2005-6 season.

Lets also have a group Laker post >>that Kobe is god and is the most valuable and dominant and best player ever.<<  So now we can get on with the Nash discusion.

msc i will say Extra 570 had a good rap session with on whether Nash was more valuable to Suns then Kobe Lakers.  The usual characters along with "Joe" who seemed a regular guest.

I did not vote for Nash for MVP last year.  At this point in this season he is hard to beat.  A.I. and the Sixers have an 80 million dollar center whom dabods tells is incapable of recieving an assist from AI or anyone else.  That hurts AI big time.

Duncar is milking his planar facius along, plus with tony P, Super Gnob and Fabs....

KG naw MN sucks
Det too much of a team?

Vince Cartier?  Not for the whole season but how bout the last 11 games?

[westkoast]

Can you go one thread without mentioning the Lakers?  I've not heard a single Laker fan on this board mention Kobe as MVP.

Nash is clearly the MVP right now.  They lost their most dominant big man on their squad and they are smacking around teams with ease.

[Guest_Randy]

Nash as MVP?  Naw, I don't think so!

First, Nash IS the MVP of the Suns however, it's not like the team doesn't have any other good players.  Marion is a stud!  Thomas is a quality role player -- better than any big man the Lakers have.

I don't think Kobe is MVP either -- but IF your point is "take them away from their team and see how they play" -- you DO have to consider Kobe.  Take Kobe away from the Lakers for the rest of the season and they might win 10 more games!  

I DON'T think that MVP is ONLY taking them away from their team -- I think a better statement is "what player is causing his team to rise above the rest of the teams in the league."  

I know people will tell me I'm crazy but there are a COUPLE of players that I like currently:

1) Gasol, Memphis
2) Brand, Clips
3) James, Cleveland
4) Dirk, Dallas
5) Wade, Miami

Honorable mentions:
1) Nash
2) Arenas
3) Camby (if he weren't injured, he should be considered)
4) Kobe
5) Parker

Personally, I don't like the MVP -- it should be about who IS the best player in league (and showing that night in and night out) -- it would make this a LOT easier (and TD and KG haven't really shown it as well as some other players this year).  At this point in the season, I think I would go with Gasol (if Camby hadn't gotten hurt, he would have gotten my vote).
 

[westkoast]

Randy exactly how is Nash NOT making his team perform higher than expected?  I dont think that anyone expected the Suns to sit atop the west with Amare out for most of the season.  Marion is a stud........because Nash is making him a stud.  Marion is benefitting more than anyone else from Amare being gone because Nash is feeding him the ball in the right spots.  Have you noticed how much of his point production is coming off easy dunks, layups, and wide open jumpers?

 

[WayOutWest]

IMO it's a toss up between Nash and Dirk

Nash is keeping the Susn atop their division after losing two quality players in the off season and then losing Amare.

Dirk's Mavs have been decemated of their talent, the big three are gone and Dirk is the only one left and look at their standings.

IMO Nash has a little bit of an edge, but it's hard to argue against Dirk and a team full of no-names.  

Either guy has a shot as long as the Spurs don't unleash Flabio Obencho!

[westkoast]

IMO it's a toss up between Nash and Dirk

Nash is keeping the Susn atop their division after losing two quality players in the off season and then losing Amare.

Dirk's Mavs have been decemated of their talent, the big three are gone and Dirk is the only one left and look at their standings.

IMO Nash has a little bit of an edge, but it's hard to argue against Dirk and a team full of no-names.  

Either guy has a shot as long as the Spurs don't unleash Flabio Obencho!

Here comes the talk of the top 5 in the league again  

Nash has to be considered as the #1 canidate right now.

AI should be considered because hes having a hell of a season, only problem is Philly is not doing well standings wise.

Lebron James has to be considered as a canidate but a distant second behind Nash because Nash lost the most important player on his squad while James got a few new players to help him out.

[ziggy]

Right now the leaders are Dirk, Duncan and LeBron.  Each of those teams are playing well, and if their teams lost them the difference would be huge.  I don't see it with Nash.  He is not playing nearly as well this year as last year.  I would also say you have to put Billups and Sheed on the list.  Clearly Sheed has been a key to making that team great, and Billups is having a career year with a great team.  I would put Kobe on the list, but he is down the list right now.

[Guest_Randy]

Nash ISN'T having that great of year this year -- his fg% is down (he shot almost 50% last year) and his 3pt% is way down.  His points are up a little and his assists are about the same but his TO's are almost double last years.  Marion means more to Phoenix right now than Nash does, IMO.  

Zigs, while Billups is having a great year, I really don't think you can include him as MVP.  The Pistons have been playing GREAT ball this year but I've seen two games in which Prince was the MVP.  The fact is that almost the entire line-up of the Pistons are having great years -- that negates any MVP consideration, IMO.

As for TD, I couldn't disagree more.  TD is NOT having an MVP year -- mainly because of injuries and the fact with Finley, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Horry, and their big guys TD isn't having to have a record year.  IMO, Parker is having a better year than TD.

I think that overlooking Brand is a mistake.  The Clips aren't playing as well as they were earlier in the season but Brand IS having a MVP year (and as always, he is being overlooked).

Brand:  24.9 points pg (#11 in the NBA in scoring)
            52.5% fg% (#10 in the NBA)
            8 fta's pg (#2 among PF's)
            76% ft% (not great but I've seen a lot worse)
            1 stl pg (#9 among PF's)
            2.5 blks pg (#5 in the NBA)
            2.5 assists pg
            10.7 rpg (#6 in NBA)

How can you NOT consider what Brand is doing as MVP material?

Especially when you state that TD deserves consideration?

TD:     20.7 point pg
          50% fg%
          6.7 fta's pg
          68% ft%
          .8 stl pg
          2.2 blks pg
          3.2 assists pg
          11.6 rpg

If you are considering TD, it becomes obvious, IMO, that you also have to consider Brand.  Throw in the fact that Brand is doing this at 6'8" instead of TD's 7'0" and it makes it even more remarkable (althought heighth is definately not something I'm trying to include in the MVP criteria -- just mentioning it because the NBA is a "big mans" game.

[Skandery]

Alright I'm going to blurt this out and I have to warn you I haven't even read any of the messages in this thread except for Reality's first one when he started it yesterday.  He posted:

"if said player was taken off team, how much they would drop/with said player on team how much better they are. Up till this point in 2005-6 season."

I'm sitting here looking at some of the numbers for my boy, AK-47 and the Utah Jazz and its getting ridiculous.

Let's look at Jazz wins vs. losses when he's in and when he's out.  

He started the year by playing the first 7 games, the Jazz went 4 and 3.  

He then injured his ankle and missed the next 7 games, the Jazz went 2 and 5.

He then came back for 10 games, the Jazz went 5 and 5.
[sidenote: he came off the bench the first 6 games (2-4), started the next 4 games (3-1)]

He then had back spasms for the next three games, the Jazz went 0 and 3.  

He's been back for the last 9 games (41 mpg), the Jazz are 8 and 1.

With Kirilenko: 17-9   .654 win pct.
W/O Kirilenko:  2-8    .200 win pct.

They are the only team that's undefeated playing the Pistons (2-0), surpisingly, AK-47s played both those games, his numbers:  

45 mpg, 23 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 7 apg, 3 bpg, 4/6 3P%, 17/34 FG%

During the recent 8-1 streak, his numbers:

19 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.5 spg, 3.3 bpg, 8/18 3P%, 52/101 FG%, 58/73 FT%.

Now Utah has to improve their season win percentage and probably has to win their division running away to get any kind of respect as a three seed.  And Kirilenko has to find a way to stay healthy (and that's an undertaking).  But if those two things happen, is everyone going to keep ignoring him in the MVP debates. :huh:

[Guest_Randy]

The problem with Reality's statement is this:

"if said player was taken off team, how much they would drop/with said player on team how much better they are. Up till this point in 2005-6 season."

Lets also have a group Laker post >>that Kobe is god and is the most valuable and dominant and best player ever.<< So now we can get on with the Nash discusion.

msc i will say Extra 570 had a good rap session with on whether Nash was more valuable to Suns then Kobe Lakers. The usual characters along with "Joe" who seemed a regular guest.

I did not vote for Nash for MVP last year. At this point in this season he is hard to beat. A.I. and the Sixers have an 80 million dollar center whom dabods tells is incapable of recieving an assist from AI or anyone else. That hurts AI big time.

Does Kobe deserve MVP consideration?  Not IMO -- HOWEVER, IF you are going to go simply from Reality's statement then even Reality has to consider Kobe for MVP.  Take Kobe off the Lakers and how many games do they win?  Kobe has only missed two games this year -- the Lakers lost BOTH of those games to Utah without Kobe (yeah, Utah is a REAL powerhouse, huh?).  Take Kobe off the Lakers and you lose:

   40 mpg,  34 ppg (yes, his 44% is low but that's pretty much negated by Realities stated criteria), 10 fta's per game (at 81%), 1.3 stl, 5.7 reb, and 4.4 ass.

With Kobe, the Lakers are 18-15, without Kobe they are 0-2.

Bottom line, with Kobe the Lakers are playing better than .500 ball (.514) and would be the 7th team in the playoffs in the Western Conference.  They have also managed to beat some decent teams in the process.  AND who can argue that Kobe has less talent than most of the people that are being discussed in the process -- I would argue that only Kirilenko plays with as little talent as Kobe.

AK57 - Okur.
AI - Iggy, Webber
TD - Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen
Brand - Maggette, Kaman, Cassell, Mobley
Billlups - Hamilton, Wallace, Sheed, Prince
Dirk - Terry, Howard
Nash - Marion, Thomas (some quality role players)
James - Hughes, Ilgauskas (Gooden, Marshall)
Wade - Shaq, Mourning, Haslem (some quality role players)
Arenas - Antawn Jamison

See, if you begin looking at this kind of criteria, the list becomes MUCH smaller because you start seeing if teams can win anymore without their superstars and teams that have additional talent (i.e. Spurs, Detroit) automatically get factored out because of their better support cast.  

And THAT'S when ANY sane person has to consider Kobe and AK57 -- who jump from the bottom of the pile to the top automatically, IMO.

[westkoast]

Kobe, AK, and AI all should not be considered in the running until their respective teams improve.  IMO there is no getting around how well your team is doing when speaking about the MVP.  You can post great numbers all night long but if your team is not winning then it holds less weight.

I really wish that they held off on the MVP voting until the WC and EC finals.  Same with the ROY voting.  Wade got robbed of the ROY because the voting stopped before the playoffs started which he not only got his team to the playoffs but was a major factor in them getting to the 2nd round and making an attempt for the 3rd.  If Utah was able to make the playoffs and got to the second round because of AKs defense and scoring then it should put him in the forefront even if they didnt finish the season with 50 wins.  That is my take on it.  Too bad they do not do it that way.  Playoff performance is just as important as the regular season when considered the most valuable player in the league.

[ziggy]

Nash ISN'T having that great of year this year -- his fg% is down (he shot almost 50% last year) and his 3pt% is way down.  His points are up a little and his assists are about the same but his TO's are almost double last years.  Marion means more to Phoenix right now than Nash does, IMO.  

Zigs, while Billups is having a great year, I really don't think you can include him as MVP.  The Pistons have been playing GREAT ball this year but I've seen two games in which Prince was the MVP.  The fact is that almost the entire line-up of the Pistons are having great years -- that negates any MVP consideration, IMO.

As for TD, I couldn't disagree more.  TD is NOT having an MVP year -- mainly because of injuries and the fact with Finley, Manu, Parker, Bowen, Horry, and their big guys TD isn't having to have a record year.  IMO, Parker is having a better year than TD.

I think that overlooking Brand is a mistake.  The Clips aren't playing as well as they were earlier in the season but Brand IS having a MVP year (and as always, he is being overlooked).

Brand:  24.9 points pg (#11 in the NBA in scoring)
            52.5% fg% (#10 in the NBA)
            8 fta's pg (#2 among PF's)
            76% ft% (not great but I've seen a lot worse)
            1 stl pg (#9 among PF's)
            2.5 blks pg (#5 in the NBA)
            2.5 assists pg
            10.7 rpg (#6 in NBA)

How can you NOT consider what Brand is doing as MVP material?

Especially when you state that TD deserves consideration?

TD:     20.7 point pg
          50% fg%
          6.7 fta's pg
          68% ft%
          .8 stl pg
          2.2 blks pg
          3.2 assists pg
          11.6 rpg

If you are considering TD, it becomes obvious, IMO, that you also have to consider Brand.  Throw in the fact that Brand is doing this at 6'8" instead of TD's 7'0" and it makes it even more remarkable (althought heighth is definately not something I'm trying to include in the MVP criteria -- just mentioning it because the NBA is a "big mans" game.

Oversight on my part, I think Brand should certainly be considered for the MVP this season.  Obviously the loss of Maggette has hurt the Clips, but Brand is teh one packing the bacon on that team.  He is a having a super year.

I agree with Skander on AK47.  His impact with Utah is perhaps as significant as any player in the league, and the guy is something else.  he is perhaps the most unique player in the league.  Utah is 19-17, and with Kirilenko they are 17-9 W/O Kirilenko they are 2-8.  Utah has less talent beyond AK47 than the Lakers do beyond Kobe.  Should AK47 be top of the NBA heep?  No but he should definitely be on the list.

[Skandery]

First of all

Obviously the loss of Maggette has hurt the Clips, but Brand is teh one packing the bacon on that team.

I have to say that's a first for that statement, Ziggy...

Second of all

I agree with Randy AND Westkoast.  I agree with Randy in that Kobe is a DEFINITE candidate for MVP because his absence from the Lakers would decimate that team (although it would be interesting to see them w/o Kobe for an extended period of time, I think they'd still be somewhat competitive).  I agree with westkoast in that you're team needs a good, not just respectable, record for true consideration.  I stated clearly in my Kirilenko message that Utah does need to improve their overall season win percentage.  Winning their division at 46 wins isn't quite enough in my opinion, same with the Lakers, same with the Sixers.  

In fact if the season were to end today, my pick for MVP of the league would be Dirk Nowitzki of the Mavericks.  Right WOW?  :up:

Dirk's Mavs have been decemated of their talent, the big three are gone and Dirk is the only one left and look at their standings.

I knew you'd finally see the light... :nod:

 

[westkoast]

I stated clearly in my Kirilenko message that Utah does need to improve their overall season win percentage.  Winning their division at 46 wins isn't quite enough in my opinion, same with the Lakers, same with the Sixers. 

 

IMO 40 wins would be enough IF say Utah, Philly, or LA were able to get to the 2nd round and make a solid push to the Confrence Finals.  Thats why I have a problem with them doing the MVP voting before the end of the season.  Say Utah did make the playoffs in the 8th spot and played PHX.  If they were able to get by PHX and get to the second round because AK was defending well and scoring.....then shouldn't his MVP stock go through the roof?  Regardless of the teams regular season record?  A player of mvp caliber is most valuable in the playoffs where its win or go home.

I guess this whole thing has been bothering me ever since I was on this board complaining that I thought Wade should have got the ROY instead of Lebron and certainly should have had 10x the attention Melo recieved during the race for the same reason.  His team not only made the playoffs but he was the driving force behind them getting to the second round and pushing it deep into the series against a much better opponent.

Randy I agree with what you are saying about the help but in TDs case and in Shaq's case in the past even though they had a great supporting cast what they were doing was making the rest of the players look even better and the team that much stronger.

[guest-koast]

Randy,

His stats are lower than last year.  You are correct.  However there are a three things  that I think overshadow a lower fg% (due to the fact he has to create more offense himself) and his turnovers (see above).

One is the standings.  They are one of the best teams in the league right now minus a good shooter and the 2nd most dominating PF of last season.   How do you remain a top team when you lose a guy who was putting down 40 and 10 in the playoffs?!?!

Another one  is Shawn Marion's shooting pct.  Normally at 46-47% and now shooting about 52% ??  Like I said above he is benefitting quite a bit from Amare being out because he is being setup by Nash.  Perfect example of Nash being  that good that he is able to raise the level of any player when the team needs it.  I cant imagine him jumping up 5 pct points just out of nowhere.  Not to mention the pep to the step he has on the defensive end because of his success on the other side.

The last one is how great of a court leader Nash is being this year.  That is not something measured by a stat but very important nonetheless.  Whether the Suns players wanted to admit or not they knew they were at a disadvantage without Amare yet Nash was able to help the team gain back their confidence with Amare out.  You can not ask for more out of your star player.