Author Topic: Defense for the big men  (Read 2001 times)

Offline ziggy

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Defense for the big men
« on: July 28, 2005, 01:19:51 PM »
Defense for the big men: what do the adjusted plus/minus ratings say?

Defense for the big men: what do the adjusted plus/minus ratings say?
By Dan T. Rosenbaum

If I had a dime for every time I heard that you can't measure defense with stats, I would be a rich man. (Well maybe not rich, but I might have enough money for a nice dinner.)

Steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds - they give us only a snapshot of what a player does on defense. We would like to have more and better data to measure defense. One direction is to collect better defensive statistics, an effort that is being spearheaded by Roland Beech at 82games.com.

Another approach is to use plus/minus statistics to measure how a team defends when a player is in the game versus when he is not. It would seem odd to say that a player was a good defender when his team defended better when he was on the bench than when he was in the game.

Now, of course, it is important to account for who a player is playing with and against. Playing beside Ben Wallace might even make me appear to be a good defender. For that reason I compute adjusted plus/minus ratings that account for who a player is playing with and against. These adjusted plus/minus ratings can then be broken down into their offensive and defensive components.

In "Measuring How NBA Players Help their Teams Win" I describe the gory details of how I compute these adjusted plus/minus ratings. (I have made a few changes since then, along with adding another year of data.) It takes a lot of data for adjusted plus/minus ratings to tell us anything useful and for that reason it is useful to ask another question. What is the average adjusted plus/minus rating of players similar to a given player? Answering this question can give me a second estimate of a players' defensive productivity and help combat errors from adjusted plus/minus ratings due to lack of data.

So combining ratings of defense from a players' own adjusted plus/minus rating and that of players similar to him, which players are the best defenders? I list the best and worst by position among players playing 1,000 or more minutes in 2004-05. These ratings are predictions for the 2005-06 season assuming that younger players will improve their defense and older players may see a decline in their defense.

Top Five Centers:

Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutumbo
Theo Ratliff
Jason Collins
Joel Pryzbilla
Bottom Five Centers:

Primoz Brezec
Marc Jackson
Predrag Drobnjak
Mark Blount
Eddy Curry
Ben Wallace by all accounts is a game changer as a defender, so it is comforting to see him at the top of this list. Wallace is joined by three of the top shot blockers in the league in Dikembe Mutumbo, Theo Ratliff, and Joel Pryzbilla. Jason Collins has consistently over the past three seasons had an above average adjusted plus/minus rating and the reason is because he is a very solid defender.

Primoz Brezec was a solid offensive player for Charlotte last season, but his poor defense resulted in the Bobcats playing worse when he was out on the court. Eddy Curry also has consistently had a below average adjusted plus/minus rating over the past three seasons, and the biggest reason is his poor defensive play.

Interestingly, Kurt Thomas who was recently acquired by the Phoenix Suns rates in the bottom third among centers in defense. It is rather surprising to hear analysts argue that a players who made the 5th worst defense (the Knicks) worse is going to help the 17th best defense (the Suns) get better.

Top Seven Power Forwards:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Nick Collison
Tyson Chandler
Nenê
Andrei Kirilenko
Rasheed Wallace
Bottom Seven Power Forwards:

Matt Bonner
Cliff Robinson
Antawn Jamison
Juwan Howard
Austin Croshere
Antoine Walker
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
I am sure no one will be surprised to see Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett at the top of the list on defense for power forwards. Nick Collison is a bit of a surprise to anyone who did not watch the Sonics play a lot. (Please note that with just one year of data, ratings for rookies like Collison are more prone to error.)

I am sure many will be surprised to see Cliff Robinson in the list of worst defensive power forwards, but last season he had a dreadful adjusted plus/minus rating. Both Golden State and New Jersey played better defense when he was on the bench.

It is time for bed now, so I will leave the other positions for the next installment. But as a sneak preview, there will be a player who is about to receive a maximum salary offer who will rate as the worst defensive player at his position. Can you guess who that might be?

 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Guest_Randy

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Defense for the big men
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2005, 01:50:12 PM »
My guess would be Joe Johnson -- mainly because I've seen him play!!!

Offline Derek Bodner

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Defense for the big men
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2005, 01:51:46 PM »
well, it's gotta be either johnson, redd, allen or hughes.   has any other pg, sg or sf gotten a max offer?

I don't think JJ is a bad defender, though.

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2005, 01:51:50 PM »
Quote
My guess would be Joe Johnson -- mainly because I've seen him play!!!
The others listed were Micheal Redd and Ray Allen.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Guest_Randy

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Defense for the big men
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2005, 02:55:02 PM »
Quote
well, it's gotta be either johnson, redd, allen or hughes.   has any other pg, sg or sf gotten a max offer?

I don't think JJ is a bad defender, though.
Well, dbods, I'm not sure I can be an objective judge -- I haven't ever seen him play D -- if you have, perhaps I missed that game!   :cheers:  

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 05:38:34 PM »
Quote
Top Five Centers:

Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutumbo
Theo Ratliff
Jason Collins
Joel Pryzbilla


Bottom Five Centers:
Primoz Brezec
Marc Jackson
Predrag Drobnjak
Mark Blount
Eddy Curry

Ben Wallace by all accounts is a game changer as a defender, so it is comforting to see him at the top of this list. Wallace is joined by three of the top shot blockers in the league in Dikembe Mutumbo, Theo Ratliff, and Joel Pryzbilla. Jason Collins has consistently over the past three seasons had an above average adjusted plus/minus rating and the reason is because he is a very solid defender.

Primoz Brezec was a solid offensive player for Charlotte last season, but his poor defense resulted in the Bobcats playing worse when he was out on the court. Eddy Curry also has consistently had a below average adjusted plus/minus rating over the past three seasons, and the biggest reason is his poor defensive play.

Interestingly, Kurt Thomas who was recently acquired by the Phoenix Suns rates in the bottom third among centers in defense. It is rather surprising to hear analysts argue that a players who made the 5th worst defense (the Knicks) worse is going to help the 17th best defense (the Suns) get better.

Top Seven Power Forwards:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Nick Collison
Tyson Chandler
Nenê
Andrei Kirilenko
Rasheed Wallace


Bottom Seven Power Forwards:

Matt Bonner
Cliff Robinson
Antawn Jamison
Juwan Howard
Austin Croshere
Antoine Walker
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
I am sure no one will be surprised to see Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett at the top of the list on defense for power forwards. Nick Collison is a bit of a surprise to anyone who did not watch the Sonics play a lot. (Please note that with just one year of data, ratings for rookies like Collison are more prone to error.)

I am sure many will be surprised to see Cliff Robinson in the list of worst defensive power forwards, but last season he had a dreadful adjusted plus/minus rating. Both Golden State and New Jersey played better defense when he was on the bench.
 
So how many people agree that Nick Collison, Tyson Chandler, and Nenê are better defenders than AK47???? Are Garnett and Duncan better defenders than AK47??

Is Joel Pryzbilla a top 5 defensive center?  IS Jason Collins a top 5 center????  Is Primoz Brezec the wrost defensive center???


Is Antwan Jamison a worse defender than Shareef and Antoine Walker?????


 
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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Offline Reality

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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2005, 01:23:36 AM »
Quote
In "Measuring How NBA Players Help their Teams Win" I describe the gory details of how I compute these adjusted plus/minus ratings.
Could the gory details be posted or linked?

Offline Reality

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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2005, 01:28:53 AM »
Quote
So how many people agree that Nick Collison, Tyson Chandler, and Nenê are better defenders than AK47???? Are Garnett and Duncan better defenders than AK47??

Is Joel Pryzbilla a top 5 defensive center?  IS Jason Collins a top 5 center????  Is Primoz Brezec the wrost defensive center???


Is Antwan Jamison a worse defender than Shareef and Antoine Walker????? [/quote]
 a.  AK-47 is better then all of those.

b.  maybe, no, and Primoz Brezec is pink colored stuff that comes in a bottle for upset stomach.

c.  Ant Jamison is way better.  But his knee is pretty messed up.  So maybe SAR and AWalker were at the end of the year.

d. Why did this guy score Duncan with other PFs.  He hasnt played PR since David Robinson retired.

Offline Joe Vancil

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Defense for the big men
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2005, 09:07:44 AM »
I can't believe Cliff Robinson is that low on the list.

The fact that Collison's name is there does *NOT* surprise me.  I watched several Seattle games, and indicated to Skander that Collison was doing a lot of things that didn't appear on a stat sheet.

Kirilenko was, in my opinion, the season's best defender...when he was playing.  I would be interested to see his numbers broken out pre- and post-injury, though.

Joel Przybilla is an AWESOME defender, and I've been saying it for several years.  And while Jason Collins isn't bad, I really could start doing the "one of these things is not like the others" song.  He's SOLID, not spectacular.

I've not seen enough of Nene to evaluate him.

Blount's presence among the worst centers surprises me, but none of the others do.  I am surprised that Brezec is the worst, though.  My money would have been on Drobnjak.

I know Jamison's not a GOOD defender, but I'm surprised to find him listed as one of the worst.  Howard, Walker, and Abdur-Rahim aren't surprises.  Bonner is forgettable, so I wouldn't think to include him in anything, but he's a definite defensive weakling.

In short, I agree with the list FOR THE MOST PART.  I don't agree with the order, or with the standing of Cliff Robinson.  But that's about it.

 
Joe

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Defense for the big men
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2005, 09:49:54 AM »
It's hard to think of Uncle Cliffy as a bottome tier defender but on the other hand he is really getting up there in age.  He has definitely lost a couple steps.

I like what Collison brings to Seattle.  Along with Josh Howard, Collison is the poster boy for guys who almost seemed to get disrespected for actually playing for good years of college ball.  I know that college accomplishment doesn't gurantee anything but for crying out loud Collison put up 30 and 20 in a National Title game!  I guess that doesn't count as "uspide".

 

Offline westkoast

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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2005, 04:53:57 PM »
Ok you can judge defense by stats.......to a degree.  Since there is no stat for frustrating shooters, altering shots, intimidating slashers from going in the paint, and rotating well I dont think you get a good judgement on how good a defender is.  

Bowen isnt leading the league in shot blocking or even steals but he is on of the best defenders in the league.  He surely isnt in the top 10 for offensive or defensive rebounding.  Yet no one can deny hes one of the best defenders in the league.
http://I-Really-Shouldn't-Put-A-Link-To-A-Blog-I-Dont-Even-Update.com

Offline ziggy

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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2005, 06:11:05 PM »
Quote
Ok you can judge defense by stats.......to a degree.  Since there is no stat for frustrating shooters, altering shots, intimidating slashers from going in the paint, and rotating well I dont think you get a good judgement on how good a defender is.  

Bowen isnt leading the league in shot blocking or even steals but he is on of the best defenders in the league.  He surely isnt in the top 10 for offensive or defensive rebounding.  Yet no one can deny hes one of the best defenders in the league.
Westcoast,
As I understand it, they are not measuring steals, blocks etc, but measuring a teams +/- when he is and isn't on the floor, and that is adjusted/equalized to account for the impact of other players on the floor when that p[layer is on the floor.  So in effect they are trying to measure the impact of the Bruce Bowen's.
A third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. A second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. A first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself.

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rickortreat

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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2005, 06:28:50 PM »
The only problem I see with this methodology is that it doesn't account for the change in players during a normal rotation.  It's one thing to lead the league in blocking shots when your blocking the better centers in the league, but when you're blocking a lot of second stringers shots, your getting an inflated view of that player on a per minute basis.

It's good to search for better stats though, since some players get robbed in terms of the defensive effort they give and the results they achieve.  Andre Igoudala didn't make either NBA first or second team defense, and based on his play during the year IMO he was entitled.  

Offline Reality

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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2005, 07:26:14 PM »
Quote
Defense for the big men: what do the adjusted plus/minus ratings say?
By Dan T. Rosenbaum


In "Measuring How NBA Players Help their Teams Win" I describe the gory details of how I compute these adjusted plus/minus ratings. (I have made a few changes since then, along with adding another year of data.)
http://www.uncg.edu/bae/people/rosenbaum/NBA/winval2.htm

Here it is.

I might read it someday.